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 Topic: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?

 (Read 23950 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     OP - November 02, 2008, 10:39 AM

    Following on from a recent conversation regarding bitterness and antipathy towards your former religion, does anyone else feel this way? Personally, I don't understand how one can feel bitter or vengeful towards an ideology you fell for, even if you were pushed into it, surely the bitterness is better aimed at the people who did the pushing - or if you must beat up, yourself for allowing it.? I know a few people like this and there seem to be many here, some not even ex muslims. I wonder why and how that is? There is always some gratitude due to your life experience's, even if it is just the blessing of having kids that wouldn't exist had you nor met your partner, or whatever. Someone I know whom I asked recently thought about it and after a while replied 'I have nothing to be grateful for' - totally missing the obvious things like kids, and even the roof over their heads, which doesn't seem right. Am I wrong in thinking it best to look for the positives rather than magnify the negs? Does the bitterness say more about the apostate than it does about the religion? I've mentioned it before, I think the only thing bitterness ever produces is illness and an agitated mind - or do you disagree, is it somehow beneficial to get all twisted up inside?

    *This is not an attack on anyone, so chill - and Baal, fuck off out of it. Go and snipe elsewhere.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #1 - November 02, 2008, 12:03 PM

    No, I don't feel bitter towards Islam. Grateful really. It helped me grow. I considered suicide before Islam found me. I saw life as without point or purpose; but Islam got me to learn and understand theology, philosophy, and increased my interest in the pursuit of knowledge. Knowledge of languages, cultures, histories, math, science, law. I would like to deepen my education in all of them, just to make my life that much richer. I think to be a scholar of Islam, as a former muslim, to know more about the Qur'an and Islam than most believers, would be rich. I can be justified in my unbelief. A greater questioner...

    I see Islam as a system to try and make sense of things, to rest a restless mind. A stage to pass (but oh how I wish some people would get it over with). I've passed that stage. Bring on the next!

    (I've had a really good night, filled with music, dancing, and beautiful girls, if I sound too high on life :D)

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #2 - November 02, 2008, 12:08 PM

    No, I don't feel bitter towards Islam. Grateful really. It helped me grow. I considered suicide before Islam found me. I saw life as without point or purpose; but Islam got me to learn and understand theology, philosophy, and increased my interest in the pursuit of knowledge. Knowledge of languages, cultures, histories, math, science, law. I would like to deepen my education in all of them, just to make my life that much richer. I think to be a scholar of Islam, as a former muslim, to know more about the Qur'an and Islam than most believers, would be rich. I can be justified in my unbelief. A greater questioner...

    I see Islam as a system to try and make sense of things, to rest a restless mind. A stage to pass (but oh how I wish some people would get it over with). I've passed that stage. Bring on the next!

    (I've had a really good night, filled with music, dancing, and beautiful girls, if I sound too high on life Cheesy)



    Good post. Your night sounds prettty good to me Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #3 - November 02, 2008, 12:41 PM

    Well your title is guaranteed to have only gratitude come out as a virtue because bitterness is bad, we all know how bad it is.  Wink

    However my continued beef with Islam is less about bitterness, than it is about Islam itself. 

    All of the people who sit back saying "oh you're only bitter because......" seem to be forgetting what Islam is actually about. 

    If a woman who battles for longer sentences for rapists based on a rape she experienced and any bitterness she may feel is battling based on her bitterness, what does it matter?  her cause is still just.

    I mean going by your title her other alternative is gratitude, I mean seriously bitterness or gratitude?  can there be no other feeling?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #4 - November 02, 2008, 01:02 PM

    Quote
    Someone I know whom I asked recently thought about it and after a while replied 'I have nothing to be grateful for' - totally missing the obvious things like kids, and even the roof over their heads, which doesn't seem right.


    I think that person's right.  Why would they feel grateful to Islam for kids and a house?  They should feel grateful to themselves and the people around them for the good things they've achieved, not a religion.  (Similar for anyone who feels bitter about Islam, they should look at themselves and the people who indoctrinated them).

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #5 - November 02, 2008, 01:16 PM

    Definately no gratitude there for me.

    But that's not to say that I feel only bitterness. I have too many other issues to think about and solve which are unrelated to religion to have time to be bitter. I made my decision, moved on (or atleast trying to) and living my life trying to get my course completed and get my career on track.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #6 - November 02, 2008, 02:02 PM

    I have to admit that I was bitter for several months after I decided to leave Islam.I  felt like I had been living in a huge lie my whole life,that I had spent the best years of my life suffocating trying to fit into the system. It was  like wearing a straightjacket, not being able to be myself, and in fact doubting my own mental processes as if everyone else was right then I had to be wrong. I was angry and bitter at society's injustices that i saw everywhere that were either caused or perpetuated by Islam, and at the self-righteousness and stupidity of people trying to follow the rules. I felt that  it was too late for me now, and that i had been in some way crippled, my personality fundamentally flawed by the attempt to fit into the muslim world, that I would never be able to integrate, fit in with any society, never be able to function normally.

    I couldnt really say who my bitterness was directed at. At society in general, at my parents, at all my friends and acquaintances, at religious scholars, at the prophet mohammed, at the sahaba, at god whether or not he existed...

    My bitterness faded when I stopped seing things in black and white and realised that the founders of Islam and the people who perpetuate it today did actually ( I believe) have good motives, thought they went wrong in a major way. My view on religion now is an extension of my view on human beings.All of human history is  flawed because we as human beings are flawed. Its best to accept that.

    It also faded as my life began to be better, Im not sure which came first (chicken or egg ?) but eventually I started to be happier and started to enjoy life, open up and regain faith in myself...  Being able to get away and live far from my previous heavily Islamic environment helped.

    I think its completely normal to be bitter initially but after a while its just no use, it eats away at you, its  best to let it go and move on.

    I dont think  its right for anyone to be angry at themselves for having been duped though. It doesnt contribute in any positive way, it just lays unnecessary guilt. Islam like any other life experience is a stage in our development. Its my history and life experiences that made me who i am today (whether or not that is a good  thing is another matter  Smiley  )

    Im not sure about gratitude though... why be grateful? Sure I've generally had a great life, Im grateful for that, but how much of that is directly due to Islam?  I would say its bitterness versus acceptance.



    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #7 - November 02, 2008, 04:06 PM

    Quote
    Someone I know whom I asked recently thought about it and after a while replied 'I have nothing to be grateful for' - totally missing the obvious things like kids, and even the roof over their heads, which doesn't seem right.


    I think that person's right.  Why would they feel grateful to Islam for kids and a house? 


    It's true, if you choose to show no gratitude, you can prob find a million reasons to justify yourself, but why is it so bad to be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you, as well as hate the shite that came with it? In terms of making yourself feel better, rather than more bitter, it helps to at least see the positive. Either that or an all out internal war forever more.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #8 - November 02, 2008, 04:12 PM

    Quote
    Someone I know whom I asked recently thought about it and after a while replied 'I have nothing to be grateful for' - totally missing the obvious things like kids, and even the roof over their heads, which doesn't seem right.


    I think that person's right.  Why would they feel grateful to Islam for kids and a house? 


    It's true, if you choose to show no gratitude, you can prob find a million reasons to justify yourself, but why is it so bad to be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you, as well as hate the shite that came with it? In terms of making yourself feel better, rather than more bitter, it helps to at least see the positive. Either that or an all out internal war forever more.


    Tell me what I could possibly be grateful for?  what good came out of all of those years? 

    I don't get this " be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you"  wacko




    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #9 - November 02, 2008, 04:17 PM

    Quote
    Someone I know whom I asked recently thought about it and after a while replied 'I have nothing to be grateful for' - totally missing the obvious things like kids, and even the roof over their heads, which doesn't seem right.


    I think that person's right.  Why would they feel grateful to Islam for kids and a house? 


    It's true, if you choose to show no gratitude, you can prob find a million reasons to justify yourself, but why is it so bad to be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you, as well as hate the shite that came with it? In terms of making yourself feel better, rather than more bitter, it helps to at least see the positive. Either that or an all out internal war forever more.


    Well for a start, if you hadn't met your husband you wouldn't have your kids, which i assume you are grateful. I don't see much argument with that, so on the balance of good and bad your life has brought you over the past few years, you at least have that, plus you have life experience which you might use to your advantage if you choose to write about it ever, or to guide you in the future,  plus this forum, again, I'm assuming you like these things, if you don't, I take it all back and you have every right to just consider the bad and the bad only Wink

    Tell me what I could possibly be grateful for?  what good came out of all of those years? 

    I don't get this " be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you"  wacko






    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #10 - November 02, 2008, 04:37 PM



    Well for a start, if you hadn't met your husband you wouldn't have your kids, which i assume you are grateful. I don't see much argument with that, so on the balance of good and bad your life has brought you over the past few years, you at least have that, plus you have life experience which you might use to your advantage if you choose to write about it ever, or to guide you in the future,  plus this forum, again, I'm assuming you like these things, if you don't, I take it all back and you have every right to just consider the bad and the bad only Wink




    I wish I could take joy in being a parent, or be able to say with conviction "well thankfully I had children" but I can't.

    I really wish beyond reason that I could turn back the clock because I would choose not to have them, because I discovered what a shit parent I am and how badly they will turn out because of me.  So no I'm not grateful for that responsibility that I never thought through properly.

    I know what you're saying Jack, honestly I do.  Bitterness can eat you up inside, and it is eating me raw, but I can't seem to shake the regret and anger I feel towards myself. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #11 - November 02, 2008, 04:42 PM

    I wish I could take joy in being a parent, or be able to say with conviction "well thankfully I had children" but I can't.


    Not even from their point of view? ie; them being grateful for their existence). I'm afraid of what your answer might be Smiley but I'm glad I was born and my kids certainly seem happy about their place in the world (albeit; at the moment Wink).

    I like that your honest about it though Wink

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #12 - November 02, 2008, 04:45 PM

    I wish I could take joy in being a parent, or be able to say with conviction "well thankfully I had children" but I can't.


    Not even from their point of view? ie; them being grateful for their existence). I'm afraid of what your answer might be Smiley but I'm glad I was born and my kids certainly seem happy about their place in the world (albeit; at the moment Wink).


    Well I'm not sure I am grateful for my existance, if you never existed then you wouldn't know any different and I often wish I had never been born because it's all been pretty crap.  (only myself to blame but that's extra reason to hate myself and wish I was never born too lol)

    Maybe my parenting will make them end up feeling that way too ie not grateful and wishing they had never been born because their future isn't all that bright with my parenting as their preperation.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #13 - November 02, 2008, 04:55 PM

    I wish I could take joy in being a parent, or be able to say with conviction "well thankfully I had children" but I can't.


    Not even from their point of view? ie; them being grateful for their existence). I'm afraid of what your answer might be Smiley but I'm glad I was born and my kids certainly seem happy about their place in the world (albeit; at the moment Wink).


    Well I'm not sure I am grateful for my existance, if you never existed then you wouldn't know any different and I often wish I had never been born because it's all been pretty crap.  (only myself to blame but that's extra reason to hate myself and wish I was never born too lol)

    Maybe my parenting will make them end up feeling that way too ie not grateful and wishing they had never been born because their future isn't all that bright with my parenting as their preperation.



    Oh dear deary me wacko

    Anyway, it's no good saying what you might or might not have felt if you didn't exist, coz you do exist. I know it's impossible to be happy all the time, but to actually really mean it when you say 'i wish I'd never been born' - again it goes back to the gratitude thing, you can be grateful for it if you want, and who knows, it may surprise you to find it helps in significantly in the struggle to stay sane, or you can take the other, somewhat more constricted view that it's all worthless. It's worth a shot, I reckon. Don't tell me - your tried, and it didn't work?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #14 - November 02, 2008, 05:03 PM

    Well honestly I used to try and see the good and change my thinking and get moving forward but then I discovered MBTI  Cheesy (it's ok, I am beginning to rebel against the concept that who I am is etched in stone anyway) and I sort of gave up and accepted defeat.

    But I have been rethinking, and I know the way I think about things at the moment is wrong, so I'm going to get some therapy, maybe some of that cognitive behaviour therapy.

    I hate being this misrable and down hearted about everything in life.  The glass shouldn't be half empty.  Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #15 - November 02, 2008, 06:11 PM

    Berberella please stop beating yourself up and blaming yourself for past mistakes. You did the best you could based on where you were at the time. Hating yourself wont help, it will only make you feel more negative and down, plus its not justified. You're not a bad parent, you clearly love your kids very much  and are trying to do what you can for them under difficult circumstances, and Im sure they will appreciate that when they do grow up if they dont already. I seriously doubt that you will screw up their lives  Smiley

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #16 - November 02, 2008, 08:20 PM

    I need a brain transplant, I would like to take Cheetahs or iris's or Os's since they are so sensible about stuff.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #17 - November 02, 2008, 08:21 PM

    Quote
    It's true, if you choose to show no gratitude, you can prob find a million reasons to justify yourself, but why is it so bad to be grateful for whatever the years of turmoil/drifting/following stupid dogma brought you, as well as hate the shite that came with it? In terms of making yourself feel better, rather than more bitter, it helps to at least see the positive. Either that or an all out internal war forever more.


    It's got nothing to do with choosing to show no gratitude.  I'm just saying find the right target for your gratitude.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #18 - November 02, 2008, 08:22 PM

    I need a brain transplant, I would like to take Cheetahs or iris's or Os's since they are so sensible about stuff.  Tongue


    Me, sensible?   wacko  I've about as much sense as a flea.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #19 - November 02, 2008, 08:25 PM

    I need a brain transplant, I would like to take Cheetahs or iris's or Os's since they are so sensible about stuff.  Tongue


    Me, sensible?   wacko  I've about as much sense as a flea.


    Ergo you are pretty sensible because those fleas are bloody geniuses.  Tongue  I mean the bastards lay dormant for ages, knowing full well eventually a meal and a new ride will come their way.  finmad

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #20 - November 02, 2008, 08:28 PM

    Well, when you put it like that........I have obviously less sense than a flea. Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #21 - November 02, 2008, 08:29 PM

    It's got nothing to do with choosing to show no gratitude.  I'm just saying find the right target for your gratitude.


    Of course, I agree, but that's still choosing to show gratitude rather than someone blanketly saying they have nothing to be grateful from a several year period.




    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #22 - November 02, 2008, 08:33 PM

    OIC.  I thought the person just said they had nothing to be grateful to Islam for, in which case they would have been right.  Whatever they achieved they were obviously capable of with or without Islam, in which case they should be grateful to themselves and the people who helped them, not some silly religion.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #23 - November 02, 2008, 08:38 PM

    OIC.  I thought the person just said they had nothing to be grateful to Islam for, in which case they would have been right.  Whatever they achieved they were obviously capable of with or without Islam, in which case they should be grateful to themselves and the people who helped them, not some silly religion.



    Absolutely, but within that framework of Islam that they don't feel grateful for per se, it is possible to be grateful for things that happened within it, and some of them wouldnt have happened if that person hadn't chosen the path they did, for instance kids from your "islamic' union that you wouldn't have produced otherwise - why not show gratitude at that and accept Islam, in a way, brought you it to you and that's fine. Oh you know what I mean! Cry

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #24 - November 02, 2008, 08:42 PM

    I think so.  People get on with living happy, normal lives within Islam, (obviously, otherwise it would have died out long ago), and you can feel grateful for the happy bits, I spose.  But then, logically, if you're grateful to Islam for the happy bits instead of taking credit yourself, does not that also mean that you should be bitter at Islam for anything that went wrong, instead of taking responsibility yourself?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #25 - November 02, 2008, 08:44 PM

    I think so.  People get on with living happy, normal lives within Islam, (obviously, otherwise it would have died out long ago), and you can feel grateful for the happy bits, I spose.  But then, logically, if you're grateful to Islam for the happy bits instead of taking credit yourself, does not that also mean that you should be bitter at Islam for anything that went wrong, instead of taking responsibility yourself?




    well, be grateful to islam for the happy bits, that are islam-related, then and angry about the islam-related bad bits... like, happy thoughts about bayrams with the family, not so happy thoughts about whatever made your life miserable, no?
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #26 - November 02, 2008, 09:01 PM

    I think so.  People get on with living happy, normal lives within Islam, (obviously, otherwise it would have died out long ago), and you can feel grateful for the happy bits, I spose.  But then, logically, if you're grateful to Islam for the happy bits instead of taking credit yourself, does not that also mean that you should be bitter at Islam for anything that went wrong, instead of taking responsibility yourself?




    well, be grateful to islam for the happy bits, that are islam-related, then and angry about the islam-related bad bits... like, happy thoughts about bayrams with the family, not so happy thoughts about whatever made your life miserable, no?



    Something like that, I'm just wondering if I've got it wrong and that to hang on to bitterness is actually good. I just feel better if I don't, however reprehensible.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #27 - November 02, 2008, 09:03 PM



    Something like that, I'm just wondering if I've got it wrong and that to hang on to bitterness is actually good. I just feel better if I don't, however reprehensible.


    Of course you don't have it wrong, bitterness is destructive and self defeating, but you seem to only be offering gratitude as the alternative.  Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #28 - November 02, 2008, 09:06 PM

    Quote
    Something like that, I'm just wondering if I've got it wrong and that to hang on to bitterness is actually good. I just feel better if I don't, however reprehensible.


    No, you got it right, but you got this thread title wrong. Tongue

    You seem to suggest that gratitude or bitterness against Islam are two alternatives to each other.  I would say they're two sides of the same coin, because if you start thanking something outside yourself for your own achievements, at some stage you will start blaming it for your own failings.  And let's face it, any period in anybody's life, especially if it spans years, is going to include things to feel angry or sad about , as well the happy bits.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Bitterness/Gratitude - which is the virtue?
     Reply #29 - November 02, 2008, 10:02 PM


    You seem to suggest that gratitude or bitterness against Islam are two alternatives to each other.  I would say they're two sides of the same coin, because if you start thanking something outside yourself for your own achievements, at some stage you will start blaming it for your own failings. 


    Ok, then gratitude to your some of your experiences as a muslim, but not to Islam itself.  Whatever, It's just that I have first hand experience of what bitterness can do and I'm sure there's a better way.

    Ha Ha.
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