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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Fitrah.

 (Read 26297 times)
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  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #60 - November 18, 2008, 07:36 PM



    PS - I am posting in Red from now on so as to avoid confusion between myself and Hassan.

    [/color]


    No one will mistake you for hassan because he has an avatar, also please do not post in red, we have numerous different coloured themes and the red would not display aswell on some themes and your post will be illegible.  Afro



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #61 - November 18, 2008, 07:40 PM

    The creed of abraham as well as the natural inclanation of humanity, is submission to one god.

    Assertion. Can you provide evidence (bearing in mind the evidence must also deal with the historical bias towards polytheism)?


    Hello Osmanthus -

    No, would be the simple answer.


    Quote
    Not really. Can you provide examples of religions that encourage rebellion against their respective deities?


    I am not sure I follow

    PS - I am posting in Red from now on so as to avoid confusion between myself and Hassan.



    No, No, not the red. I'll be forced to put you on ignore which would be a shame since I like your posts.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #62 - November 18, 2008, 09:13 PM

    No, No, not the red. I'll be forced to put you on ignore which would be a shame since I like your posts.



    He's already stopped posting in red.  As for the statement:

    "If you'd not been exposed to the propaganda of the myth in the first place, why would you go and invent something like that anyway. You could say that millions of things might exist but you just don't have the proof. It's a crock."

    You'd have to ask yourself why groups all over the world, created their own religions independently of each other... no exposure to propaganda necessary.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #63 - November 18, 2008, 09:33 PM

    No, No, not the red. I'll be forced to put you on ignore which would be a shame since I like your posts.



    He's already stopped posting in red.  As for the statement:

    "If you'd not been exposed to the propaganda of the myth in the first place, why would you go and invent something like that anyway. You could say that millions of things might exist but you just don't have the proof. It's a crock."

    You'd have to ask yourself why groups all over the world, created their own religions independently of each other... no exposure to propaganda necessary.


    Yes, and that on its own shows that no religion is true.  God might be there, but if he'd inspired any religion, there would be no competition.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #64 - November 18, 2008, 10:37 PM

    Yes, and that on its own shows that no religion is true.  God might be there, but if he'd inspired any religion, there would be no competition.


    Well I'd say that it shows that no religion has an assured monopoly on the truth.  Personally I don't believe that organized religions have any authority at all in regards to anything divine. 

    I guess my only point was that people seem to have an propensity to believe in God or the divine.  It could be just that some parts of our brains are trying to fill in the gaps left by our senses.  Then again it could be that some part of us is aware of something bigger than ourselves, but we don't exactly know what.  Who knows.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #65 - November 18, 2008, 10:58 PM

    It could be just that some parts of our brains are trying to fill in the gaps left by our senses.  Then again it could be that some part of us is aware of something bigger than ourselves, but we don't exactly know what.  Who knows.


    Well put sir Wink

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #66 - November 18, 2008, 11:00 PM

    Quote
    Well I'd say that it shows that no religion has an assured monopoly on the truth.  Personally I don't believe that organized religions have any authority at all in regards to anything divine.


    That's the same as what I said, only couched in more diplomatic language.

    Quote
    I guess my only point was that people seem to have an propensity to believe in God or the divine.  It could be just that some parts of our brains are trying to fill in the gaps left by our senses.  Then again it could be that some part of us is aware of something bigger than ourselves, but we don't exactly know what.  Who knows.


    Back before there were any such things as police forces, prisons, fingerprint evidence, CCTV cameras, etc, those in control could make laws, but not enforce them.  However, once they'd hit on religion, it gave them a very useful tool.  Convince people there is an all-knowing, all-seeing eye in the sky, and that this Eye regards as sinful all the things you don't want people to do, and will punish them for it.  That way they will police themselves.

    That explains the universal drive for religion, whether it explains the 'universal' drive for God, or whether such a thing even exists, (I've certainly never experienced it), is another matter.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #67 - November 18, 2008, 11:14 PM

    Back before there were any such things as police forces, prisons, fingerprint evidence, CCTV cameras, etc, those in control could make laws, but not enforce them.  However, once they'd hit on religion, it gave them a very useful tool.  Convince people there is an all-knowing, all-seeing eye in the sky, and that this Eye regards as sinful all the things you don't want people to do, and will punish them for it.  That way they will police themselves.

    That explains the universal drive for religion, whether it explains the 'universal' drive for God, or whether such a thing even exists, (I've certainly never experienced it), is another matter.




    Not all religions are based on the Abrahamic model, with an all-seeing god that punishes people for transgressing some rule or another. 

    I'm in agreement though, that organized religion arose with larger more elaborate governmental structures as populations grew.  And its institutionalization was designed for the purpose of control.  But well before that, when people were still living in small bands, before our ideas of law and society even applied... people had religious beliefs. 
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #68 - November 18, 2008, 11:19 PM

    Yes, they did, and for the purpose I've outlined above, along with fulfilling some other psychological needs - comfort in bereavement, fear of death being the main two.  Just because they don't follow the Abrahamic model, doesn't mean they aren't used for social control.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #69 - November 19, 2008, 12:41 AM

    Yes, they did, and for the purpose I've outlined above, along with fulfilling some other psychological needs - comfort in bereavement, fear of death being the main two.  Just because they don't follow the Abrahamic model, doesn't mean they aren't used for social control.


    It doesn't necessarily mean that they are either.  Eastern religions work totally differently... some created for instructional purposes so to speak - without intercessors or state control.  Just a personal path made available if you chose to take it.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #70 - November 19, 2008, 07:34 AM

    Yes, a path with a reward at the end of it, and rules to follow while you're on it.  A religion doesn't need to be as unsubtle as the Abrahamic three to exert social control.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #71 - November 19, 2008, 07:58 AM

    ***You'd have to ask yourself why groups all over the world, created their own religions independently of each other***

    That's quite right, Variable. But scattered groups also independetly created chieftainships and the principle of royal lineage, master and slave classes and many other institutions. Perhaps there is a predisposition in the individual or in society when it reaches a certain stage of orgnisational development that requires identifiable authority. The problem with all such institutions, though, is that they eventually give birth to a heirarcheal administration that invariably becomes corrupt. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #72 - November 19, 2008, 08:23 AM

    Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?


    In brief, what they teach in the masjid is that the Jews and Christians went around tampering with the Bible and disobeying God while of course the Muslims haven't touched their divinely protected Quran which makes them the bestest invisible sky god worshipers EVER!  Muslims also, laughably, teach that Muslims follow God's big list of dos and dont's, but we all know that's not true. Even Muslims know this is not true, hence the breast beating and woe is me from all of these famous dawahganda shaykhs and bloggers and such.


    I understand that as being a belief within Islam, but I don't understand how he can justify the statement within the larger pool of objective thought, outside Islam. I mean, if you told a bunch of Jews that Islam follows the original message of Abraham better than Judaism does, they would find it absurd. It implies that the Jews did not take the message revealed to them (you know, if you buy into all that religious stuff) seriously, when, in fact, Jews have been faithfully cherishing and passing down the teachings of their religion (founded by Abraham) for thousands of years before Muhammad and (in the eyes of everyone who isn't Muslim) Islam was born.


    Right. It's not Islaam's job to validate other people's beliefs.  A Muslim might say, 'If they don't like it, tough luck,' just as someone else might say about his own religion's views on Islaam.  Islam's teaching is what it is, and Christianity's is what it is, and so on.  Why would or should Hasan justify an Islaamic belief in the larger pool of objective thought when Islaam teaches that it doesn't matter?  The point of Islaam, or Christianity or a lot of other religions, isn't to make nice and accept someone else's path as a perfectly valid means to god. 


    Yes you're right. I should know better than to look towards religious dogma for objective thinking.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #73 - November 19, 2008, 09:45 AM

    Yes, a path with a reward at the end of it, and rules to follow while you're on it.  A religion doesn't need to be as unsubtle as the Abrahamic three to exert social control.


    I don't think 'social control' is necessarily a bad thing.  I wouldn't want to live in an anarchical society.  Some societies - even ones thoroughly interwoven with religion - exert their control in a benign a way as any.  Others are much more ... 'proactive' (to put it euphemistically).

    Neil, I agree... could be.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #74 - November 19, 2008, 10:06 AM

    Quote
    I don't think 'social control' is necessarily a bad thing.  I wouldn't want to live in an anarchical society.


    Of course it isn't, and of course an anarchical society wouldn't last long anyway.  It'd be invaded and colonised by its more organised neighbours.  There are definite advantages to social control,  and obvious reasons why tribes that never developed it died out long ago. That explains the seemingly universal drive for religion, no need to go looking for supernatural explanations like the Fitrah.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #75 - November 19, 2008, 11:17 AM


    Of course it isn't, and of course an anarchical society wouldn't last long anyway.  It'd be invaded and colonised by its more organised neighbours.  There are definite advantages to social control,  and obvious reasons why tribes that never developed it died out long ago. That explains the seemingly universal drive for religion, no need to go looking for supernatural explanations like the Fitrah.


    Then we have those smaller bands in difficult, remote areas, who've avoided or resisted colonization from time immemorial to the early 21st century.  They simply don't fit into that scenario, yet still have religious beliefs. 

  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #76 - November 19, 2008, 02:48 PM

    Quote
    Then we have those smaller bands in difficult, remote areas, who've avoided or resisted colonization from time immemorial to the early 21st century.  They simply don't fit into that scenario, yet still have religious beliefs.


    They probly do fit into that scenario, have you ever read "Guns, Germs and Steel"?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #77 - November 20, 2008, 01:04 AM

    Hi Hassan 1, what's a pregunta? Is it the same as a connundrum?

    Just a few observations you might consider:
    Dawn of time?  All the evidence currently available suggests that Man hasn't been around since the dawn of time.


    Hello Sojournerlumus (username origin?)

    By "dawn of time", I mean the dawn of human time. That is to say, since Adam was first created and the generations of man that followed.

    Quote
    Primordial tradition? A contradiction in terms surely.


    Sorry, I do not follow? For a tradition to be primordial, is for it to have existed since the very begining.

    Quote
    Wisdom of the Ancients? I don't think they had any in the modern sense.


    I beg to differ. People today still look to the likes of Aristotle et al as persons who possessed a great deal of mental prowess. The rigour with which they discussed broad topic ranges from ethics, to public governance and everything inbetween is testament to that.

    Quote
    Worked pretty well?  How can we know? What's to compare it with?


    Absolutley nothing. But nothing natural, supernatural or political has ever come close to matching religion and god's grip over mankind. Though I suppose communism and now secularism are 2 ideologies which have competed relativley well - though the first failed, and the second is relativley untested.

    Quote
    Faith and trust in the unseen? Lemmings?


    Fair enough.

    Quote
    Purpose of life? Observably,  it's to produce the next generation.


    Do people who either dont or cannot have kids devoid of life purpose?





    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #78 - November 20, 2008, 01:20 AM


    I'm sorry, but I don't buy into that 'wisdom of the ancients' stuff.  The ancients didn't know what the fuck they were talking about a lot of the time and believed all kinds of hilarious and brutally disgusting things.  An idea should not be afforded validation simply because it's old.  And religion doesn't have the answers, full stop. It has some of the answers that people want it to have, hence the diversity of religions providing every answer under the sun.  People give religion meaning; it has none on its own, and we're simply conditioned as a society to say that it does. 


     

    Hello Fading,

    I agree with you to an extent. I am not trying to suggest that the ancients were beings incapable of committing, speaking and acting evil, but I do believe that there are elements of their belief systems (for me, the abrahamic traditions) which suggest that their knowledge and understanding of the metaphysical may very well be greater than ours. The Islamic belief, for instance, claims that Allah created the world and then created Man. It would serve to reason, therefore, that those closest to the first generations of man would be closer to truth surrounding our origins of life.

    Quote
    Well no, not really.  Start off with human sacrifice, work your way through the hundreds of wars fought over gods, and end up with some airplanes crashing into skyscrapers. Then keep on going until the end of time - that's how well it's working for people.

     

    I think people of too often mistake conflict as being religiously motivated where more often than not, religion isn't the driving force. Current "religious wars" being fought accross the world are more land, pride and nationalism orientated. Yes, a religious guise is taken by the protaganists - but I defy anyone who says the conflicts in Palestine and Iraq are fuelled by religion and not by land and pride respectivley. 

    Quote
    I would say that religion worked a lot better for people when they didn't know how the solar system worked, or what bacteria were, or anything else about the natural world.  The more we learn, the less use people seem to have for religion.  And even if it did 'work well' as a tool for societal order used by chiefs and kings since the dawn of time - that still doesn't mean that it serves any purpose beyond each individual's desire to believe in a skyman or woman.

         

    Religion worked well not in its societal or political function, but in its spiritual one.   

    Quote
    Also, I don't get into the 'vast majority' answer either. I know you said your questions were genuine and I believe you, but you're going word-for-word through the 'Missionary / Dawahganda' instruction manual on talking to heathens and doubters here. 

     

    I am yet to read a dawah instruction manual. Honest.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #79 - November 20, 2008, 01:24 AM

    Please do not start posting in red. It will not be legible with some of our themes (plus it just looks atrocious anyway).

    I'm sure most people can tell your posts apart, particularly since you don't have an avatar and the other Hassan does.

    Anyway, my point was that if you;re going to claim that Islam is the only religion that emphasises submission to the will of god then you are, in effect, claiming that other religions emphasise rebellion against the will of god. That is why I requested that you provide examples of such religions. Make sense?


    There seems to have been a lot of backlash to the red. It seems that you folk can tolerate Muslims, but the colour red? - heavens no.  Tongue

    I think the point I was trying to make was one of emphasis. The emphasis on Islam is submission to god. Although no other religion activley encourages rebellion against god, no other religion activley emerges itself in the concept of submission.


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #80 - November 20, 2008, 01:42 AM

    no other religion activley emerges itself in the concept of submission.


    What about Islam's cousin, Judaism, with it's mitzvot? To my understanding, all religions are about submission, do what God wants you to do. Whether it be sing at church on Sunday and oppose abortion, or sacrificing an animal...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #81 - November 20, 2008, 02:19 AM

    Hassan1, have you looked at Taoism? It's based on the idea that there is an innate flow or way to the universe ("Tao" means "way"), and that to reach enlightenment, one must harmonize oneself with the Tao, to "go with the flow" so to speak. Consider these principles of Taoism:

    Tao is the first-cause of the universe. It is a force that flows through all life.
    "The Tao surrounds everyone and therefore everyone must listen to find enlightenment."
    Each believer's goal is to harmonize themselves with the Tao.

    They never use the word "submission" but it's still the same idea.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #82 - November 20, 2008, 05:06 AM

    Quote
    Then we have those smaller bands in difficult, remote areas, who've avoided or resisted colonization from time immemorial to the early 21st century.  They simply don't fit into that scenario, yet still have religious beliefs.


    They probly do fit into that scenario, have you ever read "Guns, Germs and Steel"?


    Yep, and I've actually posted one of Jared Diamond's lectures on religion around here somewhere. 

    Those bands weren't involved in the 'rat-race' so to speak, made vulnerable by lack of religion or strong because of it.  They were isolated, but have their spiritual beliefs.  Does that prove that the concept of 'fitrah' exists in some sense?   Nope, and I'm not saying it does... it's just a nod to the possibility.  In the end, proponents of neither theory will be able to definitively prove them one way or the other.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #83 - November 20, 2008, 08:41 AM

    Quote
    Yep, and I've actually posted one of Jared Diamond's lectures on religion around here somewhere.


    Ooh, where? Smiley  I'd like to read that.

    Quote
    Those bands weren't involved in the 'rat-race' so to speak, made vulnerable by lack of religion or strong because of it.  They were isolated, but have their spiritual beliefs.  Does that prove that the concept of 'fitrah' exists in some sense?   Nope, and I'm not saying it does... it's just a nod to the possibility.  In the end, proponents of neither theory will be able to definitively prove them one way or the other.


    Well, that does fit into the same scenario then.  They were too isolated to be threatened by neighbours, but still had some sort of religion to encourage good behaviour among themselves. 

    And no, you can't prove or disprove the supernatural either way, but if there's a natural explanation that makes the supernatural superfluous, and that can be tested either way, it makes more sense to concentrate on testing that.  The supernatural, by definition, will always remain a question mark, and come down to personal choice whether or not you believe in it.




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #84 - November 20, 2008, 09:41 AM

    I think the point I was trying to make was one of emphasis. The emphasis on Islam is submission to god. Although no other religion activley encourages rebellion against god, no other religion activley emerges itself in the concept of submission.

    Firstly lots of religious traditions have submission, as it is a great way of controlling people and making them act in your interest, against their own (e.g. getting them to go steal stuff for you with the possibility that they'll die on the way).

    But let's run with your point anyway:
    Why is submission a good thing?  Those who submit are rendered helpless and infantile - unable to think or act for themselves.

    Wouldn't encouraging people to grow up, to take responsibility for their actions and to support their self-actualisation be better? 

    Isn't that lack of taking responsibility, the reason Islamic countries aren't doing well?

    Does it not seem likely to you that submission is not for the benefit of those who submit, but rather the benefit of those to whom they submit or take instruction from?
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #85 - November 22, 2008, 05:36 PM

    I agree with Hupla, I've never understood why submission is considered a virtue either. Isnt the whole point of having (or having been granted, as Muslims believe) intelligence and free will being able to think for yourself and make decisions and then take responsibility for the consequences of your decisions?
    I can understand (sort of) the benefit of harmonising yourself with the 'Tao' as Lana described, but it seems to me that the Islamic concept of submission to God amounts to little more in practice than obeying to Mohammed's instructions.

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #86 - November 23, 2008, 06:05 PM

    No, No, not the red. I'll be forced to put you on ignore which would be a shame since I like your posts.



    He's already stopped posting in red.  As for the statement:

    "If you'd not been exposed to the propaganda of the myth in the first place, why would you go and invent something like that anyway. You could say that millions of things might exist but you just don't have the proof. It's a crock."

    You'd have to ask yourself why groups all over the world, created their own religions independently of each other... no exposure to propaganda necessary.


    One hypothesis maintains that it is the confluence to two human instincts: [1] wanting to know how and why things happen, and [2] wanting to dominate each other. 

  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #87 - November 23, 2008, 06:27 PM


    Of course it isn't, and of course an anarchical society wouldn't last long anyway.  It'd be invaded and colonised by its more organised neighbours.  There are definite advantages to social control,  and obvious reasons why tribes that never developed it died out long ago. That explains the seemingly universal drive for religion, no need to go looking for supernatural explanations like the Fitrah.


    Then we have those smaller bands in difficult, remote areas, who've avoided or resisted colonization from time immemorial to the early 21st century.  They simply don't fit into that scenario, yet still have religious beliefs. 



    True, but without some external pressure they don't seem to spawn new or variant religions.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #88 - November 23, 2008, 06:33 PM

    No, No, not the red. I'll be forced to put you on ignore which would be a shame since I like your posts.



    He's already stopped posting in red.  As for the statement:

    "If you'd not been exposed to the propaganda of the myth in the first place, why would you go and invent something like that anyway. You could say that millions of things might exist but you just don't have the proof. It's a crock."

    You'd have to ask yourself why groups all over the world, created their own religions independently of each other... no exposure to propaganda necessary.

    As I've hopefully explained above, variable, I don't think they do. It seems to me that if someone is sincerely mad, they just come up with a variant of what has gone before. If they have a cynical profit motive they invent a new one.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Fitrah.
     Reply #89 - November 23, 2008, 10:03 PM


    Well, that does fit into the same scenario then.  They were too isolated to be threatened by neighbours, but still had some sort of religion to encourage good behaviour among themselves. 


    They were isolated so were removed from the scenario previously described... that groups with a religion were better able to withstand invsion and destruction or assimilation.  Whether or not they had religion to encourage good behavior amongst themselves, is a whole other question. 

    I'm not even saying that this is definitive that the concept of 'fitrah' exists... it's just an interesting point.  For all I know, there may have been long lasting groups who had no religion at all.  In fact, one of my profs one time said that there were "two tribes in Africa" who didn't have any concept of God (although she was a bit of a nutcase, and following up on it, I never found any further info).  It could be an indication of an intrinsic search for something divine, it may not be.

    Quote
      The supernatural, by definition, will always remain a question mark, and come down to personal choice whether or not you believe in it.



    Totally agreed on that. 

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