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 Topic: Slave girls/women covering in Islam

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     OP - November 15, 2008, 08:28 AM
    Ok, so I did a search on the word slave in this forum and did not find this subject, so I decided to write about it, I wrote about it in my blog a while ago because it seems like a piece of info that is not known by many muslims today.

    As far as anyone knows... islam asks women to cover and be modest, but on the other hand, before slavery was abolished, a woman slave in islam only had to cover from her navel to her knees... just like a man, other coverings were optional... so a woman could've gotten away with walking around in board shorts.

    However, when being sold, most slave traders had the slaves naked on the streets, Imam Malik of the malki mathab/school used to tell slave traders that they should not do that, but they insisted, and he told them that if they insist on doing that, they should at least do it away from the mosques.

    This is one of the things that throws the whole covering for modesty and not enticing mens basic instincts out of the window...

    Oh yeah, she can pray without covering her hair... which makes covering a woman's hair during prayer something I still cannot understand.

    you can do a google image search and find some old pics and some drawings of that era.

    At the moment my wife is going through what rational1 went through a while ago, I read the post today but cant seem to find the post anymore...
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #1 - November 15, 2008, 08:35 AM
    Yah, that one puzzled me when I first heard it. I tried to ask (the muslims, when I was) about it, but no one had any answers. " *shrug* It's probably weak. fabricated." Okay...
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #2 - November 15, 2008, 10:09 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 15, 2008, 08:35 AM
    Yah, that one puzzled me when I first heard it. I tried to ask (the muslims, when I was) about it, but no one had any answers. " *shrug* It's probably weak. fabricated." Okay...


    You should see how jaws drop when I tell people around me, they tell me I am wrong, then go look it up, find out its real...  then they say nothing... and pretend not to see the elephant in the room  whistling2
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #3 - November 15, 2008, 10:19 AM
    Do you have a reference for the "navel to knees" thing?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #4 - November 15, 2008, 12:44 PM
    osmanthus

    I do, but they are in arabic... here is a link to one of them

    http://www.taimiah.org/Display.asp?f=tc9070800002.htm
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #5 - November 15, 2008, 09:24 PM
    Groovy. We'll have to look at getting a translation sorted for future reference. What is the source (ie: hadith collection?)
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #6 - November 15, 2008, 10:35 PM
    Yep, hadeeth
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #7 - November 15, 2008, 10:38 PM
    Annnnnddddddd?    Witch wun? Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #8 - November 22, 2008, 08:19 PM
    You can pray without a hijab?  Huh?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #9 - November 22, 2008, 11:26 PM
    Where are your refs? Dude you need to provide references to your claims...

    I'll just check the only one you did provide...
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #10 - November 22, 2008, 11:34 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 15, 2008, 10:38 PM
    Annnnnddddddd?    Witch wun? Tongue


    There only one hadith which refs to Bukari, yest just quote Mo, without providing a direct ref, some quote some other dudes, don't know who they are seems like ulema's maybe.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2008, 04:31 AM
    Well, here Hamza Yusuf says something about it.

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=SM-qUSVzmp8

    he does not say who and which women walked around with breasts hanging out, but he does say there were women like that.

    And here is an old picture taken of a slave trader with an african slave which I found using google and used it in one of my articles.



    There were more arabic online refrences like the islamic councel of kuwait and saudi, but once a bunch of us bloggers wrote about them, most of them deleted... go figure... but they cant hide the truth.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #12 - November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
    Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

    Anyway if you find any more online references get screenshots. That way if they delete them you still have them by the balls.  Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #13 - December 15, 2008, 08:37 PM
    In the pre-Islamic Middle East, veiling was the sign of a 'respectable' or married woman, and non-veiling indicated enslaved status. Laws dictated that any slave woman wearing a veil would be punished (by having her teeth smashed with a brick) and also that any man who didn't inform the authorities about an enslaved woman who was disguising herself as a wife should be punished as an accomplice. (This comes from Gerda Lerna's Creation of Patriarchy). It appears clear to me that the purpose of veiling here is to mark women who are common sexual property from women who are private sexual property.

    According to hadeeth, 'adultery' by enslaved women is not a capital offence as it is in a married woman, but that an owner should sell an habitually 'adulterous' slave. I'm guessing again that this indicates that enslaved women have less (or more likely no) ability to refuse sex, so this makes allowances for that. It appears to me that Islam has just added a spiritual veneer to an older, patriarchal custom of veiling.
    On ne naît pas femme, on le devient
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #14 - December 16, 2008, 03:58 AM
    @whatabastor  & Joanne: thank you so much for your excellent information in this thread! I have definitely learned some new things today Smiley

    Quote from: Quran 4:25
    And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Quote from: Sahih Bukhari 1:4:148
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).
    source

    Quote from: Sahih Bukhari 8:74:257
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    (the wife of the Prophet) 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled" But he did not do so. The wives of the Prophet used to go out to answer the call of nature at night only at Al-Manasi.' Once Sauda, the daughter of Zam'a went out and she was a tall woman. 'Umar bin Al-Khattab saw her while he was in a gathering, and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda!" He ('Umar) said so as he was anxious for some Divine orders regarding the veil (the veiling of women.) So Allah revealed the Verse of veiling. (Al-Hijab; a complete body cover excluding the eyes). (See Hadith No. 148, Vol. 1)
    source

    Quote from: Sahih Muslim 26:5397
    'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil.
    source

    Quote from: Sahih Muslim 26:5398
    This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Shihab with the same chain of transmitters
    source


    Even after the hijab verses were 'revealed' Umar was still spying on Muhammad's wives when they went to the toilet. I am unsure where the modesty and obedience claims come from (reasons for wearing the hijab) because this is clearly not the case.
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #15 - December 16, 2008, 09:10 AM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 16, 2008, 03:58 AM

    Even after the hijab verses were 'revealed' Umar was still spying on Muhammad's wives when they went to the toilet. I am unsure where the modesty and obedience claims come from (reasons for wearing the hijab) because this is clearly not the case.



    Sanitarium, here's a couple Qur'anic ayats to add:

    Qur?an 33:59 - Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons.

    Qur?an 24:31 - And tell the believing women to draw their veils down to their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their slaves. {The veil is to be worn down to the bosom thereby covering the face, neck and cleavage.}

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #16 - December 16, 2008, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 09:10 AM
    Sanitarium, here's a couple Qur'anic ayats to add:

    Qur?an 33:59 - Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons.

    Qur?an 24:31 - And tell the believing women to draw their veils down to their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their slaves. {The veil is to be worn down to the bosom thereby covering the face, neck and cleavage.}




    Thank you! Are you saying my understanding is wrong though? My original point was that the hijab came about because Umar wanted it (originally) not because Allah or Muhammad wanted it (for modesty or obedience).

    Thanks again!
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #17 - December 16, 2008, 12:52 PM
    Quote from: Joanne on December 15, 2008, 08:37 PM
    In the pre-Islamic Middle East, veiling was the sign of a 'respectable' or married woman, and non-veiling indicated enslaved status.


    Joanne, this concept is verified by one of the most respected tafsir writer,  ibn Kathir. His commentary on ayah 33:59 - O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed.

    Tafsir by ibn Kathir:
    Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women, especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor, to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas'ud, 'Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa'id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha'i, 'Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. 'Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn 'Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked 'Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah: (to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.'" (That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed.) means, if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or whores.

    The above explanation of ibn Kathir means:
    Muslim women must always keep their bodies covered whenever they venture out.
    Infidel women who do not hide their bodies inside Jilbab and Hijab are either slaves, maidservants or whores.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #18 - December 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 16, 2008, 12:38 PM

    Thank you! Are you saying my understanding is wrong though? My original point was that the hijab came about because Umar wanted it (originally) not because Allah or Muhammad wanted it (for modesty or obedience).

    Thanks again!


    It was definitely Umar who coerced Muhammad into revealing the verses concerning veiling to ensure the believing women had to cover up. This was to ensure veiling was not an option, but something Allah sanctioned.

    Of course veiling and head covering existed previously but obviously not yet enforced by Allah. Umar wanted to ensure no woman was recognised outside her house.

    However if it was not something Muhammad wanted he would not have acceded to the request from Umar.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #19 - December 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 16, 2008, 12:38 PM

    Thank you! Are you saying my understanding is wrong though? My original point was that the hijab came about because Umar wanted it (originally) not because Allah or Muhammad wanted it (for modesty or obedience).

    Thanks again!


    It was definitely Umar who coerced Muhammad into revealing the verses concerning veiling to ensure the believing women had to cover up. This was to ensure veiling was not an option, but something Allah sanctioned.

    Of course veiling and head covering existed previously but obviously not yet enforced by Allah. Umar wanted to ensure no woman was recognised outside her house.

    However if it was not something Muhammad wanted he would not have acceded to the request from Umar.

    But why not?
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #20 - December 16, 2008, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
    It was definitely Umar who coerced Muhammad into revealing the verses concerning veiling to ensure the believing women had to cover up. This was to ensure veiling was not an option, but something Allah sanctioned.

    Of course veiling and head covering existed previously but obviously not yet enforced by Allah. Umar wanted to ensure no woman was recognised outside her house.

    No worries thank you! I always wondered why Umar wanted it in the first place (it did not make sense to me).

    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
    However if it was not something Muhammad wanted he would not have acceded to the request from Umar.

    Yes, but in order to get this 'revelation' from Muhammad/Allah Umar had to spy on Muhammads wives when they went to the toilet LOL.

    One wonders why Umar didn't go pray to Allah directly eh? Tongue
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #21 - December 16, 2008, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 16, 2008, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
    It was definitely Umar who coerced Muhammad into revealing the verses concerning veiling to ensure the believing women had to cover up. This was to ensure veiling was not an option, but something Allah sanctioned.

    Of course veiling and head covering existed previously but obviously not yet enforced by Allah. Umar wanted to ensure no woman was recognised outside her house.

    However if it was not something Muhammad wanted he would not have acceded to the request from Umar.

    But why not?


    Because women were considered to be the property of men. If they were seen by other men they could form the object of someone else's desire. You know men cannot control themselves!

    Their insecurity regarding their womenfolk was paramount to ensuring women were basically locked up.

    So that is why they were not to be recognised outside their immediate family.

    Of course the rational by apologists is that such stipulations are there to protect the modesty of the woman.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #22 - December 16, 2008, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 16, 2008, 01:36 PM
    One wonders why Umar didn't go pray to Allah directly eh? Tongue


    Allah only receives requests for commands from an authorised dealer, sorry prophet.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #23 - December 16, 2008, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
    Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

    How dare you insult Mubarak Hussein Obama's grand fathers Os? Let it go already. Are you still upset McCain did not get it? Where you like a Bush supporter or something.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #24 - December 16, 2008, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 02:02 PM
    Allah only receives requests for commands from an authorised dealer, sorry prophet.

    hahahaha. I once asked a Muslim about it and he told me that Muhammad was like a "express hotline" to Allah.... it wasn't very convincing.
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #25 - December 16, 2008, 02:31 PM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 16, 2008, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on December 16, 2008, 02:02 PM
    Allah only receives requests for commands from an authorised dealer, sorry prophet.

    hahahaha. I once asked a Muslim about it and he told me that Muhammad was like a "express hotline" to Allah.... it wasn't very convincing.


    Have you ever heard anything convincing from the other side?  Cheesy because so far I haven't, it all loses me somewhere along the way.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #26 - December 16, 2008, 02:39 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on December 16, 2008, 02:31 PM
    Have you ever heard anything convincing from the other side?  Cheesy because so far I haven't, it all loses me somewhere along the way.


    Nope!


    Oh wait... I keep hearing the "those ahadith are not authentic" (substitute tafsir also). But no, nothing convincing yet. You get lost along the way? Most explanations don't make it outta the gate!! hehe
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #27 - December 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
    Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

    Anyway if you find any more online references get screenshots. That way if they delete them you still have them by the balls.  Afro


    Well....the prophet of islam was a slave trader, which made him an evil M(other)F.

    Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.

    Sorry.....I had to provide the full spelling of the part that came before the "F".  We all know what you meant by "MF".

    There is at least one hadith that shows the prophet authorizing and/or participating in rape and human trafficking, which provides the "historical context" for verse 4:24, which verse authorizes muslims to commit rape.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #28 - December 30, 2008, 08:03 PM
    Quote
    Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.


    References?
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
     Reply #29 - December 30, 2008, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
    Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

    Anyway if you find any more online references get screenshots. That way if they delete them you still have them by the balls.  Afro


    Well....the prophet of islam was a slave trader, which made him an evil M(other)F.

    Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.

    Sorry.....I had to provide the full spelling of the part that came before the "F".  We all know what you meant by "MF".


    The MF's are not necessary, none of your vitriol helps your point, and unless you have references for the above "watermelon, animal, man and dead woman F accusations, I suggest you stop making them.

    Quote

    There is at least one hadith that shows the prophet authorizing and/or participating in rape and human trafficking, which provides the "historical context" for verse 4:24, which verse authorizes muslims to commit rape.


    At least this came with some reference.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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