Slave girls/women covering in Islam

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- gallego
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #30 - December 30, 2008, 08:14 PM

Quote from: Iris on December 30, 2008, 08:03 PM
Quote
Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.

References?

That is why I qualified my remark with the phrase "heard and/or read".

Having heard about some of those things does not imply that I necessarily have a reference for it. I will quiz my kufar islamic scholars on more actual references.

So please don't put words into my mouth.

However, Most of us know about the hadith where muhammad took a child bride. That made him a pedophile by any reasonable definition.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #31 - December 30, 2008, 08:16 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 08:08 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

Anyway if you find any more online references get screenshots. That way if they delete them you still have them by the balls.

Well....the prophet of islam was a slave trader, which made him an evil M(other)F.

Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.

Sorry.....I had to provide the full spelling of the part that came before the "F". We all know what you meant by "MF".

The MF's are not necessary, none of your vitriol helps your point, and unless you have references for the above "watermelon, animal, man and dead woman F accusations, I suggest you stop making them.

Quote

There is at least one hadith that shows the prophet authorizing and/or participating in rape and human trafficking, which provides the "historical context" for verse 4:24, which verse authorizes muslims to commit rape.

At least this came with some reference.

It was the moderator who first used the term "MF", not me.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #32 - December 30, 2008, 09:55 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 08:08 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 04:51 AM
Hell that slave trader looks like an evil MF.

Anyway if you find any more online references get screenshots. That way if they delete them you still have them by the balls.

Well....the prophet of islam was a slave trader, which made him an evil M(other)F.

Actually from what I have heard and/or read of the prophet, not only was an MF, he was a ChildF, ManF, AnimalF, watermelonF, and even a deadwomanF.

Sorry.....I had to provide the full spelling of the part that came before the "F". We all know what you meant by "MF".

The MF's are not necessary, none of your vitriol helps your point, and unless you have references for the above "watermelon, animal, man and dead woman F accusations, I suggest you stop making them.

Quote

There is at least one hadith that shows the prophet authorizing and/or participating in rape and human trafficking, which provides the "historical context" for verse 4:24, which verse authorizes muslims to commit rape.

At least this came with some reference.

4:24 doesn't sound like it's authorising rape to me :S

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #33 - December 30, 2008, 10:07 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 30, 2008, 09:55 PM

4:24 doesn't sound like it's authorising rape to me :S

Right hand possession is captives of war, it gives permission in that verse which is rape IMHO since most captives don't really have free choice.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #34 - December 30, 2008, 10:09 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 10:07 PM
Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 30, 2008, 09:55 PM

4:24 doesn't sound like it's authorising rape to me :S

Right hand possession is captives of war, it gives permission in that verse which is rape IMHO since most captives don't really have free choice.

Fair point I guess.

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #35 - December 30, 2008, 10:50 PM

BerberElla is right.

Verse 4:24 allows muslim men to have sex with "right hand possessions".

The Tafsir of Al Jalalayn explains that "right hand possessions" are captives. In case you didn't know, the Tafsirs are the authoritative explanations of the Koran by recognized muslim scholars.

Al Jalalayn is one of those scholars, as are Ibn Kathir and Qurtubi. The Tafsir of Al Jalalayn seems to translate into Englsih (for me at least) better than the other Tafsirs.

I always find it useful to refer to the Tafsir when talking (debating) with muslims. The mere mention of guys like Ibn Kathir and Al Jalalayn (and especially the suggestion that you might even have some REMOTE idea of what they say), will usually either cause the muslim to change the subject, run away, or start insulting you. When the personal insults start to fly, you know that they are running for cover.

Note to BerberElla......pointed questions on any issue should not be interpreted as ad hominem personal insults, either by the moderators or by muslims.

Peruvianskies.....I don't know about you, but if a man has sex with a woman being held captive, I would call it rape.

What do you think?
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #36 - December 30, 2008, 11:26 PM

Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 10:50 PM
BerberElla is right.

Verse 4:24 allows muslim men to have sex with "right hand possessions".

The Tafsir of Al Jalalayn explains that "right hand possessions" are captives. In case you didn't know, the Tafsirs are the authoritative explanations of the Koran by recognized muslim scholars.

Al Jalalayn is one of those scholars, as are Ibn Kathir and Qurtubi. The Tafsir of Al Jalalayn seems to translate into Englsih (for me at least) better than the other Tafsirs.

I always find it useful to refer to the Tafsir when talking (debating) with muslims. The mere mention of guys like Ibn Kathir and Al Jalalayn (and especially the suggestion that you might even have some REMOTE idea of what they say), will usually either cause the muslim to change the subject, run away, or start insulting you. When the personal insults start to fly, you know that they are running for cover.

Note to BerberElla......pointed questions on any issue should not be interpreted as ad hominem personal insults, either by the moderators or by muslims.

Peruvianskies.....I don't know about you, but if a man has sex with a woman being held captive, I would call it rape.

What do you think?

I would have to agree.

BTW does 'right hand captives' also include slaves?

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #37 - December 30, 2008, 11:31 PM

Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:16 PM
It was the moderator who first used the term "MF", not me.

You are quite welcome to use the term but if you are going to state, even indirectly, that Mohammed fucked dead women, men, animals and watermelons it is your responsibility to provide references.

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #38 - December 30, 2008, 11:38 PM

Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 10:50 PM

Note to BerberElla......pointed questions on any issue should not be interpreted as ad hominem personal insults, either by the moderators or by muslims.

Good point, but what exactly prompted this advice?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #39 - December 30, 2008, 11:56 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 11:38 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 10:50 PM

Note to BerberElla......pointed questions on any issue should not be interpreted as ad hominem personal insults, either by the moderators or by muslims.

Good point, but what exactly prompted this advice?

I would answer as follows:

First of all:
I was referring to personal insults made to me by another forum participant, in which ad hominem insults he (or she) seemed to think that some of questions represent an "attitude", and in which insults he (or she) used profanity, called me a "ignorant bigot", compared me to a Nazi (Germania???), and suggested that maybe I should be deported to Africa (some racial overtones there???).

Secondly:
However, in the thread about the Hijab, I am eagerly awaiting answers to the questions I posed, either from the moderators or from any other forum participant who may care to address them.

Like I said in there, pointed questions are not one-sided. Accusing the questioner of being one-sided, and then providing what is really not much of an answer, is what is really one-sided. I am simply asking the moderators to accept the same standard they have asked of me.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #40 - December 30, 2008, 11:58 PM

We don't moderate trivia. If you can show the other person was incorrect that's a point for you. We aren't necessarily going to stomp them for being incorrect.

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #41 - December 31, 2008, 12:09 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 30, 2008, 11:58 PM
We don't moderate trivia. If you can show the other person was incorrect that's a point for you. We aren't necessarily going to stomp them for being incorrect.

I am not trying to stomp on anybody.

I would just like some answers to my questions, without somebody trying to trivialize them.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #42 - December 31, 2008, 01:12 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 30, 2008, 11:31 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:16 PM
It was the moderator who first used the term "MF", not me.

You are quite welcome to use the term but if you are going to state, even indirectly, that Mohammed fucked dead women, men, animals and watermelons it is your responsibility to provide references.

And in accordance with my earlier post I would like you to provide reliable references which indicate that Mohammed had sex with men, dead women, animals and watermelons. If you cannot provide said references I will expect a retraction. I think that is reasonable.

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #43 - December 31, 2008, 06:55 AM

tee hee...watermelons

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #44 - December 31, 2008, 07:20 AM

"...sweet watermelons will be coming off of Muhammad..."

Goddamn Muzlims!

The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #45 - December 31, 2008, 10:07 PM

Gallego, I'm just curious as to how you're progressing with this little matter:

Quote from: osmanthus on December 31, 2008, 01:12 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on December 30, 2008, 11:31 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:16 PM
It was the moderator who first used the term "MF", not me.

You are quite welcome to use the term but if you are going to state, even indirectly, that Mohammed fucked dead women, men, animals and watermelons it is your responsibility to provide references.

And in accordance with my earlier post I would like you to provide reliable references which indicate that Mohammed had sex with men, dead women, animals and watermelons. If you cannot provide said references I will expect a retraction. I think that is reasonable.

Are you anticipating being able to provide proof or a retraction sometime in January?

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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #46 - January 02, 2009, 08:28 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 31, 2008, 10:07 PM
Gallego, I'm just curious as to how you're progressing with this little matter:

Quote from: osmanthus on December 31, 2008, 01:12 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on December 30, 2008, 11:31 PM
Quote from: gallego on December 30, 2008, 08:16 PM
It was the moderator who first used the term "MF", not me.

You are quite welcome to use the term but if you are going to state, even indirectly, that Mohammed fucked dead women, men, animals and watermelons it is your responsibility to provide references.

And in accordance with my earlier post I would like you to provide reliable references which indicate that Mohammed had sex with men, dead women, animals and watermelons. If you cannot provide said references I will expect a retraction. I think that is reasonable.

Are you anticipating being able to provide proof or a retraction sometime in January?

I never said I had references for them. That is why I qualified my remark right from the beginning with the phrase "heard and/or read". So I don't really know know if everything I heard is in islamic books. Maybe somebody else in here does know.

The stuff about his pedophilia is definitely in islamic books, and I provided those references.

Fixed quote tags.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #47 - January 02, 2009, 09:01 PM

Ah, so really you're just hedging your bets.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #48 - January 03, 2009, 12:42 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 09:01 PM
Ah, so really you're just hedging your bets.

Of course. I chose my words carefully. You can read them again if you wish. I used those words exactly because I anticipated the response that I got. I hedged my bets before anybody made a response.

To have repeated something one has heard, even if one thinks it to be a reliable source, should not be interpreted as a categorical statement, and should not be interpreted as the presentation of an authoritative source.

What is wrong with repeating something one has heard as long as it was identified as such, which it was (read and/or heard)?

Rather than getting so being personal with me, there could be somebody else in this forum who actually knows and can present sources. Then we all learn something. Right?
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Re: Slave girls/women covering in Islam
Reply #49 - January 03, 2009, 09:58 AM

I edited your earlier post to fix the formatting as you had posted your reply inside the quote of my post.

Anyway, what we apparently have is you making wild and unsubstantiated claims that you are not prepared to back up. We prefer that you avoid doing this. The forum rules are quite explicit.

Quote from: Forum Rules
1/ Discussion of Islamic beliefs.

This is allowed, and indeed encouraged, subject to certain restrictions.

If you are going to state that something is Islamic you must be prepared to back your statements by quoting authorities and/or texts.
If you cannot back your statements with a reputable source and your statements are deemed inflammatory you will be given a "smite".

In other words, make sure you know what you are talking about and how to phrase it in the most reasonable fashion.

The reasons they are like that is because we don't particularly want this site discredited as a loony bin that posts all sorts of bullshit. It tends to undermine any legitimate criticism of Islam that is made here. This may not matter to you but we regard it as significant. Since you made the assertions about necrophilia, homosexuality, bestiality and an unnatural interest in watermelons on the part of Mohammed I would expect you to be able to back up your assertions. You wont be able to, because they are crap and I suspect you already know this. You have, after all, studied Islam extensively if your claims in other posts are to be believed.

Smite 1. This is your first. You have two left.
Use those up and you will be confined to the Damnation board.

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