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Theme Changer

 Topic: My journey up from the abyss

 (Read 25674 times)
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  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #30 - January 20, 2009, 11:50 AM

    I read this before joining the forums and I remember cringing and having to stop at various parts to shake myself out of disbelief. Its amazing what people are capable of doing in the name of faith, and others in the name of apostacy. your story is a very inspiring look at one persons experience with the harsh reality of religious struggle. I too, thought it read like a book, or short story so your love for reading and writing shines through.

    Im glad you have made it so far in life, it takes a great amount of courage to live even a fraction of what you have.


    Thanks belladonnasix.  Smiley

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #31 - April 02, 2009, 12:51 AM

    Fuck, I mean just...fuck. And I thought my dad was fucked-up. You're a much more forgiving person than I am...I couldn't even imagine thinking a person who put me through such bullshit was not pure evil and deserving of a .38 Spl JHP personally delivered to their genitals. I'm filled with rage now just hearing it second-hand from someone I've never met.

    Anyhow, congratulations on your liberation. Fuck.

    fuck you
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #32 - April 02, 2009, 01:42 AM

    Fuck, I mean just...fuck. And I thought my dad was fucked-up. You're a much more forgiving person than I am...I couldn't even imagine thinking a person who put me through such bullshit was not pure evil and deserving of a .38 Spl JHP personally delivered to their genitals. I'm filled with rage now just hearing it second-hand from someone I've never met.

    Anyhow, congratulations on your liberation. Fuck.


    About time you read it, slowpoke.  Smiley

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #33 - April 02, 2009, 03:12 AM

    Out of all the apostasy stories I have read yours is the most harrowing... And amazingly you show so little bitterness from your terrible experience.

    A very moving story Berberella.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #34 - April 02, 2009, 03:29 PM

    Wow.
    I guess my dad isn't such a jerk afterall.

    It's amazing how sane you seem after what you went through. I admire you for surviving that. The great thing is that you are now available to help and inspire others who are facing similar (although I can't imagine as bad) struggles as you did. Sadly there are many.


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #35 - April 02, 2009, 05:40 PM

    Fuck, I mean just...fuck. And I thought my dad was fucked-up. You're a much more forgiving person than I am...I couldn't even imagine thinking a person who put me through such bullshit was not pure evil and deserving of a .38 Spl JHP personally delivered to their genitals. I'm filled with rage now just hearing it second-hand from someone I've never met.

    Anyhow, congratulations on your liberation. Fuck.


    Thanks Q-man, fortunately all of that is behind me and it's all about better and brighter shit these days.  Smiley



    About time you read it, slowpoke.  Smiley


    You tell him hunny.  Tongue

    Out of all the apostasy stories I have read yours is the most harrowing... And amazingly you show so little bitterness from your terrible experience.

    A very moving story Berberella.


    Wow.
    I guess my dad isn't such a jerk afterall.

    It's amazing how sane you seem after what you went through. I admire you for surviving that. The great thing is that you are now available to help and inspire others who are facing similar (although I can't imagine as bad) struggles as you did. Sadly there are many.




    I was bitter for awhile, and don't get me wrong there are days where it overwhelms me and it's hard to forget, or to trust anyone to enter into my life.  (lol that's why I'm still single)

    But mostly I'm a cheerful soul who bounces back and has done for along time, there is just too much good stuff in the world to allow the past to cloud the horizon.

    As for sanity, well I can't swear that I have that, I have issues man  Wink but I'm not totally off my rocker just yet.

    Thanks for taking the time to read and comment guys.  far away hug

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #36 - April 02, 2009, 05:57 PM

    Quote from: BerberElla

    As for sanity, well I can't swear that I have that, I have issues man  Wink


    Who can? LOL.

    But seriously, being aware of the issues one has, is a sure sign of descending sanity.

    The line between what we call "sane" people and the insane is very thin. The insane are over the edge, and the sane ones are teetering on the brink; just a little push and they will be over the edge too.

    Or may be we consider each other (who are out of the mental institutions Smiley )sane only because we all more or less equally insane.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #37 - April 02, 2009, 06:34 PM

    I dont know what to say. Not really, but i try...

    I was raised by a strong indipendent Women, and im now a succesful Graphic Designer and Artist.

    Im sure with you as a Mother your Children will become great and indipendent Adults too.

    And for the forgiving part:

    Forgivness for everything is a religious concept. There are some things that cant be forgiven. It cant be forgiven that the system didnt help you when you were looking for help, and never can it be forgiven what your relatives did to you. Honestly if i would be aware of something like what happened to you, i would punch a guy who did this to a woman into a coma! (i have 6 years of Boxing experience.)

    You have my deepest respect and i wish you and your Children all the best.

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #38 - April 03, 2009, 01:28 PM

    Sheesh...I kept reading this and thinking ...ME TOO!!!

    The difference being that my father was a christian who believed pretty much the same about females as your father did...ah religion...you gotta love it...or not.

    Some of your experiences of abuse and mine are similar...but then Ive got a few that might "one up" you so to speak...and yet here I am...and father is long dead so I survived...and so did you. Thats got to count for something right?

    However both our husbands were Muslims....alot of what you experienced was my experience as well...plus the added pedophilia to really make it all a complete little fucked up story for all concerned.

    People have been telling me to write my story for years now as I fancy myself a writer of sorts...of course most of those people arent Muslims  Roll Eyes and Ive considered only because I need money (unemployed going on 4 months now) and 5 children and the ex not paying child support (little that the court ordered him to)...so yes...for money I would write it...but as much as I find it cathartic to write out my misery...not so sure I want to put it out there to a larger audience...my blog and whomever follows it suits me fine for now...lol.

    Im gald you are finding your way sister...the part where you threw your scarf out the window etc would so make a great movie moment...slow motion with a smile on your face and a look of hope in your eyes...yes...definitely a moment to enjoy in slow motion  yes
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #39 - April 03, 2009, 03:27 PM

    Coolred,

    You could put your blog url into your profile if you wanted,
    Just saying.


    BSmileyB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #40 - April 04, 2009, 06:59 PM

    Peace.

    BerberElla,this was awfull reading.I think it says a lot of you,surviving this kind of things,and keep your emotions,like you have.

    Respect to you BerberElla!
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #41 - May 08, 2009, 11:31 PM

    Amazing story. Well told too; someone said you have a fluid writing style, I second that.

    One question, what is "access rights" and why does it mean you wait around for your death?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #42 - May 09, 2009, 04:33 AM

    muslim men are such goatfuckers  finmad

    really moved and sad by your horrible life, and i can only hope you and your family live and learn as great human beings free from religious bigotry and free from the horrors of islamic sexism.

    respect and best wishes for you and your kids Smiley

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #43 - May 09, 2009, 10:39 AM

    About time you read it, slowpoke.  Smiley

    I just finished reading it. I started when you first posted it, but couldn't finish it. I guess I thought it was too negative and didn't want to read it right then.

    Quote
    "niggers are the army of the devil" (which he believed based on old Islamic texts)

    He believed it was based on text, or believed it because it was based on text? If the latter, you know which?

    When I was reading your story, I could hear the old apologist in me trying to reason, "they weren't following Islam right... bla bla bla" I can see how an apologist (or anyone with rose coloured glasses for Islam) could dismiss your story. ...

    I'm glad that you finally got out for yourself, your kids, and for us to get to have a friend like you Smiley.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #44 - May 09, 2009, 11:20 AM

    Amazing story. Well told too; someone said you have a fluid writing style, I second that.

    One question, what is "access rights" and why does it mean you wait around for your death?


    Access rights mean that my ex husband has a right to see the children, this means that in truth I can never be safe.

    Every 2 weeks I have to go to a designated meeting place with the kids and hand them over, and then collect them after.

    In 4 weeks I will no longer have the protection of using a contact centre to hand over the children (which involves me sitting in a safe room until he has left with them), instead I will have to meet in a public place.

    As to being safe, I thought when I moved to this place I would feel safe, but that was naive of me.  He pressured my eldest into giving him our address details so he knows exactly where I am.

    This is due to access rights, so it's ok to beat a woman and threaten her life, it's ok to do all of this, as you will still be allowed to see the kids and continue making her feel threatened for many many more years to come.


    About time you read it, slowpoke.  Smiley

    I just finished reading it. I started when you first posted it, but couldn't finish it. I guess I thought it was too negative and didn't want to read it right then.

    Quote
    "niggers are the army of the devil" (which he believed based on old Islamic texts)

    He believed it was based on text, or believed it because it was based on text? If the latter, you know which?

    When I was reading your story, I could hear the old apologist in me trying to reason, "they weren't following Islam right... bla bla bla" I can see how an apologist (or anyone with rose coloured glasses for Islam) could dismiss your story. ...

    I'm glad that you finally got out for yourself, your kids, and for us to get to have a friend like you Smiley.



    Oh, his was a very warped interpretation......maybe, but it was in reference to the hadiths that talk about people with blackened faces, and how if anyone needed to imagine what satan looked like they should just look at this one particular black guy they all knew.

    To him that fact that people who ended up in hell, ended up with blackened faces, meant the army of the devil were niggers.............he was a racist bastard deep down.

    I remember threatening to tell his black muslim friend all about what my ex thought of black people, of course that led to another fight but I never really did stop saying what I felt needed to be said.

    As to apologists dismissing my story, I have also had many muslim ladies pm me, back on FFI and sometimes here who have had their own life thrown into the spotlight of examination when they have read my story.  It spoke to them and made them realise that actually Islam was to the blame for the abuse they suffered and they were only deluding themselves when they believed Islam was not to blame, or that their abusers were going against Islam. Infact a good few became ex muslims but weren't ready to plunge into forum life because it's a slow proess, and it's a hurtful one.

    My story isn't really for the people who have never suffered, it's for the people who have suffered, and who need to see what someone else has said on what motivates that suffering.  People who have been there, who have felt it, they are the ones who will most understand.

    If during my abused years I had stumbled across an ex muslim womans testimony, someone who had suffered like I had but had recognised islam was to blame, I know I would have felt I had found someone who understood and I too would have seen earlier that no amount of deluding myself could change the fact that Islam motivated alot of what I went through.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #45 - May 09, 2009, 11:23 AM

    How did you find out about FFI? You remember?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #46 - May 09, 2009, 11:29 AM

    How did you find out about FFI? You remember?



    I found FFI really quickly lol think of it this way, the day I decided I wanted to look deeper into Islam, the first thing I typed into google was "the truth about the quran" (I was simply looking to see about the whole quran never changed thing).......how many links do you honestly think I needed to click to find FFI once I typed those fateful words into the google box? lol not many, I found it that same day.

    I didn't find the forum for a few days though, I was reading articles.

    I actually liked FFI to start off with, no no, I LOVED it to start off with.  I loved it for ages actually. 

    It was awhile before my idealism saw through many of the failings of that site.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #47 - May 09, 2009, 11:42 AM

    What was it that turned you and others off? A shift in Ali Sina's personality, a shift in tone of the forum, or just a shift in yourselves?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #48 - May 09, 2009, 11:47 AM

    What was it that turned you and others off? A shift in Ali Sina's personality, a shift in tone of the forum, or just a shift in yourselves?



    Bit of all 3 really, perhaps a shift in me that led me to see it a different way, or a shift in the first 2, which caused a shift in me.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #49 - May 09, 2009, 12:16 PM

    Can't you go with friends when you drop the kids off?

    Also, when apologists defend Islam their main avenue of discussion is that Islam strictly doesn't allow for all this to occur. They say you shouldn't judge Islam by its followers, but for its credentials alone. But really I think we should judge Islam by its followers. I mean, when we are judging whether Islam tells us to lead a good life, which of these questions should we answer:

    "Does Islam lead us towards a good life when lead by ideal people whose desires are 100% controlled by their rational capacities?"

    or

    "Does Islam lead us towards a good life when lead by typical human beings?"

    Ofcourse, the latter, right? But apologists only see the first question. But if everyone was an ideal person, then almost every belief system out there would be flawless. It is the flaws of the people that make a flaw in a belief system, right?

    It's like saying that Communism strictly doesn't allow for the polit bureau to take advantage of the populace, but in reality, it does. Its no good saying "good polit bureaus wouldn't do so and so". There has to be measures in place which stop a polit bureau from taking advantage of the rest of populace, should they wish to become self-interested.

    There isn't a measure in place to stop Muslim husbands from beating their wives for reasons which Islam would strictly prohibit, should that Muslim husband want to go against Islam and do such a thing. This is nevertheless a flaw of Islam.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #50 - June 11, 2009, 08:01 PM

    Hi- Berberella!
    I wanted to say that you are an inspiration to me...

    But I logged in to show how the propaganda "it has nothing to do with islam" is winning...

    The PC brigade is doing great job...

    I am active on a blog advicing non muslim women not to marry muslim men-I post there as Margaret-
    I took a liberty to post your story there (I apologise I didnt ask you) and look at the responses I got - it just blew my mind...

    Quote from: Rita
    Where did you get this piece of writing? Sounds to me like originally ( if any of it is true) it was written by Iranian, Iraqi or Egyptian lady and then changed to a Moroccan one. First of all nobody in Morocco practising female circumsicion, secondly that is nothing to do with islam. This is only a cultural practise (disgusting , ancient method to control females by rejecting them any sexual pleasure). Also this is practised in some central, east and west African countries, where people are not even muslims. Did you notice as well not even one town in Morocco been mentioned, sounds to me like an author never even been to Morocco... I can find plenty examples in America and Europe, where children are beeing beatten, raped and neglected by their own families for years, women beeing abused, raped by their husbands. So please, don't write things like that and pretend that it's happening only in muslim families. Some people who doesn't know a lot about islam, muslim culture and never been to Morocco actually will believe this kind of nonsense.



    Quote
    Those were my exact thoughts, Rita - the story does seem rather extreme in parts. Some of it did sound like a melodramatic movie lol, especially the abduction part. Although child & religious abuse is rife - and should never be ignored - in Morocco... this doesn't quite add up at times, & strikes me as a form of propaganda. Particularly the part where the author speaks of racism against Berbers - which also exists, but it is rarely due to skin color. A lot of it is engaging & often true, but...

    Does the story relate to marrying Moroccan men? I'd sooner say that it relates to the general, international abuse of women. Or to marrying someone when you're far too young, and with low self-esteem, which happens all the time, all over the world. It's the 17-year-old girl with low self-esteem who marries a controlling man 10 years her senior & has a baby; it's the 18-year-old girl who has an arranged marriage to a grotesque man in Pakistan, & her children feel unloved because she married solely for reputation, & she'd rather marry the boy of her dreams. It's not a Moroccan thing.

    And you're right, abuse isn't just a product of muslim marriages. In fact, I live only a few doors down from a non-muslim man who domestically abused his wife - which clearly shows that such behavior is closer to home than anyone would imagine. Domestic and child abuse is carried out by severely mentally ill, sadistic or messed up people, from all walks of life. They should never, ever blame their cruelty on their religion or upbringing - this adds further insult to the victim, & abusers always love to blame their actions on others.

    As for circumcision, this practice usually takes place in the African "sticks". If it occurs in Morocco, it's probably in some obscure village.

    When I was in Morocco, I saw that the children had relative freedom compared to a lot of other muslim countries. Young couples canoodling in public, teenage girls in "western" clothing, mixed young people hanging out in games arcades & on beaches. Me & my half-Moroccan sister even had a laugh with some local young men lol.

    There's probably a higher risk of abuse if the Moroccan partner has an authoritarian father & oppressed mother - as there's a chance that he will turn out just like his dad. But then he could also go in the opposite direction, and decide that he wants to be nothing like him...


    What is sad that the woman can get away from liason with a muslim- but her children usually cannot and would suffer as you do...

    thats why I post there- to save the potential children...But I tell you it is hard when you get such ignorant responses...
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #51 - June 11, 2009, 10:28 PM

    Could you possibly give me the link to your blog so that I can reply directly to these comments being made about me?

    Also, I honestly would have preferred if you had asked my permission bfore posting my story at a place I can not defend it, but I guess that's a risk anyone takes when they post something online, it's ok though.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #52 - June 11, 2009, 11:00 PM

    Could you possibly give me the link to your blog so that I can reply directly to these comments being made about me?

    Also, I honestly would have preferred if you had asked my permission bfore posting my story at a place I can not defend it, but I guess that's a risk anyone takes when they post something online, it's ok though.


    I am sorry I didnt ask you... It is Daniel Pipes blog...

    I am apparently not allowed to post links...

     The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
    Sorry, you are not allowed to post links.

    But I put it as my website on my profile settings...
     Wink
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #53 - June 11, 2009, 11:08 PM

    I am apparently not allowed to post links...

     The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
    Sorry, you are not allowed to post links.

    you could put: councilofexmuslims dot com/whatever

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #54 - June 12, 2009, 02:16 AM

    Hi- Berberella!
    I wanted to say that you are an inspiration to me...

    But I logged in to show how the propaganda "it has nothing to do with islam" is winning...

    The PC brigade is doing great job...

    I am active on a blog advicing non muslim women not to marry muslim men
    What is sad that the woman can get away from liason with a muslim- but her children usually cannot and would suffer as you do...


    Well, some of this behaviour from the men in Berbs life isn't really condoned in Islam, others are.Also, I'm sure many women marrying Muslim men have had reasonably positive experiences & Moroccan laws are pretty decent. In cases of non Muslim women marrying Muslim men, I have seen that its most often a one way street. Muslim men marrying non Muslim women is far, far more common than the other way round & if its Muslim women who marries a non Muslim man, her husband very often faces strong pressure to convert. My mom is Muslim btw, of the Ismaili sect, which is one of the extreme few sects that allow Muslim women to marry non Muslim men, without requiring that the husband converts. I've very often seen Muslim families being extremely cool about their sons dating non Muslim women, while their daughter is strictly forbidden from doing the same. I've also seen this continue into the next generation, among the children of this couple- the sons have freedom to marry non Muslims, the daughters are required to marry Muslims.

    This might not be true for every Muslim family, but its often true & I've seen it happen quite a few times.

    Of course, I hear stuff from the leftist brigade that children of such marriages can be brought up agnostics, Muslims will lose their faith in large numbers in the West etc etc, but I haven't seen that happen yet.

    I do see the double standards of Muslim men marrying non Muslim women & not the other way round happen so often, this double standard extends to the next generation & I've seen that secularization of places like Singapore hasn't secularized many Malay Muslims there. So based on the evidence, till date such marriages & such secularism & agnosticism happens to still not touch Muslims.

    I wonder if these women know that their daughters might not be given the same privilege of marrying outside her faith. Probably not  001_wub makes one blind.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #55 - June 12, 2009, 09:27 AM

    I am sorry I didnt ask you... It is Daniel Pipes blog...

    I am apparently not allowed to post links...

     The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
    Sorry, you are not allowed to post links.

    But I put it as my website on my profile settings...
     Wink

    Is it this one- http://www.danielpipes.org/ ?

    You cant post links till you have at least 10 posts (it's a security measure). Where abouts is the story posted? I can't find it.

    EDIT: Found it on your profile. If anyone wants it, here's the link- http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/05/advice-to-non-muslim-women-against-marrying.html

    Scroll down to the comments section, the post is titled- "The daugther of a Moroccan man and UK lady"


    Margeret, in future we would rather you asked us before posting something like that without our permission. I don't think most of the members of this forum would like to be affiliated with a blog like DanielPipes, we're not that extreme.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #56 - June 12, 2009, 09:35 AM

    Berbs, you may want to put a disclaimer on your original post asking people not to use your story without asking.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #57 - June 12, 2009, 08:13 PM


    Yes, I know I made a mistake sorry...

    But dont you think helping women in trouble is more important that who is or is not affiliated with D. Pipes blog ?

    Some women there are really confused- there is an Israeli women who want to divorce her husband for a Pakistani moslem she met online...

    There is a poster "Hunny uk" who barely escaped with her life

    I dont get why you made such distinction- I saw Maryam Namazie listed together with Ayaan Ali on a "hit list"---see- some moslems dont see you as different...
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #58 - June 12, 2009, 08:25 PM

    Yes, I know I made a mistake sorry...

    But dont you think helping women in trouble is more important that who is or is not affiliated with D. Pipes blog ?

    Most of us here prefer not to attack muslims as a whole, they are just people with both good and bad groups. There are many decent muslims out there, D.Pipes blog makes them all look like monsters which is obviously not the truth. Yes there are people who need help but there are also others who are happy living in a marriage where their husband actually respects them and others have happy mixed-religion marriages. It is not fair to group them all into a horrible stereotype.  If the blog made that distinction it wouldn't be too much of a problem (although we require permission nonetheless) but unfortunately it doesn't seem to do this. This forum was created to move away from such generalisations.

    I appreciate that you are merely trying to help people.
  • Re: My journey up from the abyss
     Reply #59 - June 12, 2009, 09:06 PM

    Most of us here prefer not to attack muslims as a whole, they are just people with both good and bad groups. There are many decent muslims out there, D.Pipes blog makes them all look like monsters which is obviously not the truth. Yes there are people who need help but there are also others who are happy living in a marriage where their husband actually respects them and others have happy mixed-religion marriages. It is not fair to group them all into a horrible stereotype.  If the blog made that distinction it wouldn't be too much of a problem (although we require permission nonetheless) but unfortunately it doesn't seem to do this. This forum was created to move away from such generalisations.

    I appreciate that you are merely trying to help people.


    Well- somehow the cases there are just confirming the stereotype...

    I know there are a lot of decent muslims- but as Berberella wrote about her step-mothers father that he is/was in fact more of a sufi than muslim...
    That is the case with the decent muslims- they are either from a minority sect (ahmadiyja, bahai,sufi...) or muslim by name only- "Easter/X-mas muslims"...

    By the way I read a statement by Maryam Namazie that the so called moderates are a PR wing of radicals...that was pretty extreme I think...

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