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 Topic: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?

 (Read 16141 times)
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  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #30 - November 28, 2008, 11:53 AM

    And why would you want to believe in something like Karma and reincarnation?


    No, I didn't say I believed in it. I said these ideologies are what drove to to not beleiving in god.

    However thinking about the options, if there was a god and I had the option of either going to hell for all eternity being barbecued for not kissing up to his behind or coming back and trying again paying for the bad things i did bofore, I know which I'd choose, the latter.

    There is another option, which is not to believe in any of this simplistic wishful thinking and see reality for what it is!

    As far as I can see the whole point of 'karma' and 'reincarnation' is to perserve the cast system - to control people and keep them in their place - its obviously quite an appealing ideology as can be seen by the huge gap in the 'haves' and 'have nots' in India for example.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #31 - November 28, 2008, 11:57 AM

    Ziaz,
    Buddhist also believe in Karma but they don't believe in Caste system. Caste system is so fatalistic and stupid that becuase I am born in one particular household everything is fixed till I die, my talents, skills nothing counts.
    Karma is rather dynamic, saying whatever happened in the past, do good and there will be some positive change. Karma theory was twisted by priviledged ones to make caste discrimination. It would be good to consider Karma from Buddhist, Jainist or Sikh perspective and none of them believe in caste system.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #32 - November 28, 2008, 02:16 PM

    I think Nour is not saying that:
    - Ppl should not have compassion for those who are suffering.
    - Ppl should not do any thing to prevent / improve the situation.
    - Ppl should think abused ppl deserved it.
    - Ppl should make abused guilty that abused person was a bad one.

    She thinks each and every one of us has some Karma and we all will go through certain traumas and shock in order to grow and evolve. Some will have more obvious and some will have traumas not so obvious. That does not make us better than baby P or a disabled person.  If we were better or more evloved, we would not have born. And after going through various hardships in various phases one day everyone will reach some final destination.

    Not that, I believe in that. Just that I kind of understand her.


    Wow!  You hit the nail on the head there learn2bcalm.  That was exactly what I was trying to say yesterday, just that my brain was addled with work (and other substances) and I was too tired to organise my thoughts very well.  That was what I was trying to get across to you all in my OP.


    I'm sure that you are not saying that one should not have compassion for those who are suffering etc...

    But the implications of Karmic consequences of a previous life are that some people will blame or be less compassionate for people they perceive as having 'deserved it' in some Karmic way.



  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #33 - November 28, 2008, 02:23 PM

    Hassan,
    Well that means those ppl are making a bad choice by deciding to be less compassionate as they are responsible for their mental attitude.

    But, you are right. That is why I have stopped believing in Karma.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #34 - November 28, 2008, 02:41 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    On the contrary. The laws of nature allow for change from the big bang to where we are today. From primitive man, archaic laws to scientific discoveries we live in a world of continual change.


    Hello.

    Who said their wasn't change?  Berb's was referring to making moral change.  As I have already argued on her previous thread, without God, there is no basis for moral good or evil at all.  As a result, it is meaningless to talk about 'changing' something because there is nothing to change and no 'direction' to change it in.  The logical consequence of this for people is apathy and hopelessness.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    No god implies man goes out and find the answers to the universe.


    No it doesn't.  It doesn't imply anything at all.  Sitting on you bum doing nothing would be just as logical a response to the absence of God as looking for anything at all.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Question our existence and develop laws for the good of humanity.


    What is that good and how do you know?  And why should it be for the 'good of humanity' and no 'my good' or 'the good of all primates' or 'the good of the fairies at the bottom of the garden'.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #35 - November 28, 2008, 02:43 PM

    Very well put a.ghazali!

    Sparky,
    How on earth can you come up with statements like "if there is no god, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in"?  What possible evidence do you have to substantiate such a comment?

    From what I can see of all the religions they are positively against change.


    The question is the other way around.  What evidence is there that evil actually exists?  Unless you can provide some objective evidence for this, you have no reason for believing that it does and no reason to act to change it.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #36 - November 28, 2008, 04:18 PM


    Who said their wasn't change?  Berb's was referring to making moral change.  As I have already argued on her previous thread, without God, there is no basis for moral good or evil at all.  As a result, it is meaningless to talk about 'changing' something because there is nothing to change and no 'direction' to change it in.  The logical consequence of this for people is apathy and hopelessness.



    That's  not the logical consequence, that's the godly consequence, in that we people who do not believe in god do not believe that without god we lose morals.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #37 - November 28, 2008, 04:38 PM

    Very well put a.ghazali!

    Sparky,
    How on earth can you come up with statements like "if there is no god, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in"?  What possible evidence do you have to substantiate such a comment?

    From what I can see of all the religions they are positively against change.


    The question is the other way around.  What evidence is there that evil actually exists?  Unless you can provide some objective evidence for this, you have no reason for believing that it does and no reason to act to change it.

    Sparky,
    You are putting words in my mouth... i never said that 'evil' exists and I certain do not believe that there is such a thing as 'moral goodness' ie something ordained by god...  I put it to you to prove or disprove evil and goodness from a religious perspective.

    What I have to say on goodness and badness is that they are entirely human characteristics which have many influences (genetic and environmental).  I certainly believe our communities have a lot to do with what is acceptable (good) and what is not (bad) - and these have clearly changed over the years.

    During the very religious years of the inquistion when your god was strongest - there was a very different concept of what was good and what was bad...  Thankfully those days are in the past - and now that your god is not so strong ie there are a lot more rational people around I think the current concepts of goodness and badness are going in the right direction - ie there is no link to superbeings (ie your gods or devils) and it is accepted much more widely that it has everything to do with ones environment and ones mental health.

    Z
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #38 - November 28, 2008, 08:02 PM

    As I have already argued on her previous thread, without God, there is no basis for moral good or evil at all.  As a result, it is meaningless to talk about 'changing' something because there is nothing to change and no 'direction' to change it in.  The logical consequence of this for people is apathy and hopelessness.


    Totally disagree. Good and bad exists. The evolution of society to maximise the good and minimise the bad is in the hands of mankind.

    Your imaginary friend in the sky with his archaic laws that sanctions slavery, capital punishment, killing of witches, denouncing of those without their belief, myopic geocentric view of the universe on a flat earth, etc is hardly a platform for the religious to espouse a some form of superior morality, ethics or knowledge.

    Quote
    What is that good and how do you know?  And why should it be for the 'good of humanity' and no 'my good' or 'the good of all primates' or 'the good of the fairies at the bottom of the garden'.


    We know. When it rebounds to the good will of humanity and other creatures we know we are heading in the right direction. We do not have to depend on people who claim they know what some god tells them that is good for humanity.

    As John B. Hodges says:

    "Religion is for people who have never matured in their understanding of ethics.  Religion teaches a child's view of ethics, that 'being good' means 'obeying your parent.'  It gives a moral blank check to those bold enough, dishonest enough, to claim to speak for God.  Atheism means looking at ethical questions as an adult among other adults, considering ethics as a means of maintaining peace and cooperation among equals, so that all may pursue happiness within the limits that ethics defines."

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #39 - November 28, 2008, 08:26 PM

    And why would you want to believe in something like Karma and reincarnation?


    No, I didn't say I believed in it. I said these ideologies are what drove to to not beleiving in god.

    However thinking about the options, if there was a god and I had the option of either going to hell for all eternity being barbecued for not kissing up to his behind or coming back and trying again paying for the bad things i did bofore, I know which I'd choose, the latter.

    But if there was a God and he/she/it knew you were just sucking up and were therefore being insincere, you'd burn anyway.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #40 - November 28, 2008, 08:28 PM

    Very well put a.ghazali!

    Sparky,
    How on earth can you come up with statements like "if there is no god, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in"?  What possible evidence do you have to substantiate such a comment?

    From what I can see of all the religions they are positively against change.


    The question is the other way around.  What evidence is there that evil actually exists?  Unless you can provide some objective evidence for this, you have no reason for believing that it does and no reason to act to change it.

    Sparky,
    You are putting words in my mouth... i never said that 'evil' exists and I certain do not believe that there is such a thing as 'moral goodness' ie something ordained by god...  I put it to you to prove or disprove evil and goodness from a religious perspective.

    What I have to say on goodness and badness is that they are entirely human characteristics which have many influences (genetic and environmental).  I certainly believe our communities have a lot to do with what is acceptable (good) and what is not (bad) - and these have clearly changed over the years.

    During the very religious years of the inquistion when your god was strongest - there was a very different concept of what was good and what was bad...  Thankfully those days are in the past - and now that your god is not so strong ie there are a lot more rational people around I think the current concepts of goodness and badness are going in the right direction - ie there is no link to superbeings (ie your gods or devils) and it is accepted much more widely that it has everything to do with ones environment and ones mental health.

    Z

    That's the post of the week for me Ziaz. Spot on.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #41 - November 28, 2008, 11:45 PM

    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

    It really doesn't.  If there is no God, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in.  No God implies apathy and hopelessness.  Fortunately, many atheists are too irrational to actually live that way...


    This is very interesting. I used to think like that when I was a believer. I've had plenty of conversations with my cousin about religion, and he thinks the same way about the worldview of atheists. Just the typical ignorance or arrogance you'd expect from some believers. Atheists can't know right from wrong "objectively", they have no motivation to do good, they believe in pure randomness, they have to invent a purpose for their meaningless lives (unlike the believers who base their lives on something solid, with lotsa pages in it) and they either have to live in extreme hedonism or extreme nihilism. Oh, we eat babies, too! With Tabasco sauce they are especially succulent.
    Those are the reasons for why my cousin would never ever consider becoming an apostate. He says he's got a special feeling that his religion is the Right One. His basis for morality is the Qur'an and hopefully his ratio, too. Without that guide, he thinks he would be completely lost.

    Why is my cousin so certain of his book? Why are Christians so certain of their book? Why are Jews so certain of their book? Why Hindus and Scilons? Surely they all can't be right, yet the sick gods in those books promise the Fire for every (informed) infidel. Everybody thinks he's right, at least in some way. That's fine by me, but not everybody thinks that his worldview is the ultimate Truth, which must be followed by everyone, or you'll be ruined in this life or the next one for sure.

    My cousin sees absurdity in other religions, yet he is unwilling to admit absurdity in his own. What does that remind you of? It reminds me of a boy who is enamoured of a beautiful girl. No matter how much you try to point out flaws in her that make her an unsuitable partner, he will not listen, because his senses are numbed, by the thought of laying one. In a similar way, believers are in love with their religion unable and unwilling to spot any discrepancies in it. And if it's not love, it most probably is habit or fear, which keeps a person in a religion.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #42 - November 29, 2008, 09:52 AM


    Who said their wasn't change?  Berb's was referring to making moral change.  As I have already argued on her previous thread, without God, there is no basis for moral good or evil at all.  As a result, it is meaningless to talk about 'changing' something because there is nothing to change and no 'direction' to change it in.  The logical consequence of this for people is apathy and hopelessness.



    That's  not the logical consequence, that's the godly consequence, in that we people who do not believe in god do not believe that without god we lose morals.

    Once again, the point is not that you 'lose morals'.  The point is that you have no reason for believing that 'morals' exist.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #43 - November 29, 2008, 09:55 AM

    Quote from: Ziaz
    What I have to say on goodness and badness is that they are entirely human characteristics which have many influences (genetic and environmental).


    How do you know which characteristics are good and which are bad?

    Quote from: Ziaz
    I certainly believe our communities have a lot to do with what is acceptable (good) and what is not (bad) - and these have clearly changed over the years.


    So if a community in Iraq finds that is it acceptable to stone a girl who was seen with a boy she was not married to, you find that that behaviour is 'good'?

    Quote from: Ziaz
    I think the current concepts of goodness and badness are going in the right direction


    What direction is that and how do you know that it is the 'right' direction?

    Edited to correct who was quoted!!

  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #44 - November 29, 2008, 10:01 AM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Totally disagree. Good and bad exists. The evolution of society to maximise the good and minimise the bad is in the hands of mankind.


    Then what is 'good' and 'bad' and how do you know they exist?

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Quote from: sparky
    What is that good and how do you know?  And why should it be for the 'good of humanity' and no 'my good' or 'the good of all primates' or 'the good of the fairies at the bottom of the garden'.

    We know. When it rebounds to the good will of humanity and other creatures we know we are heading in the right direction. We do not have to depend on people who claim they know what some god tells them that is good for humanity.

     

    Repeating yourself doesn't make your case stronger.  I asked 'how do you know' and why should 'the good will of humanity' be considered the 'good' that our behaviour should aim for?

    Remember that as an atheist, your 'default' position should be that something doesn't exist until it can be shown to exist through evidence.  Isn't that why you believe there is no God?  So, I ask again, what is your evidence that good and evil exist.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #45 - November 29, 2008, 10:22 AM

    Quote from: Aziz
    This is very interesting. I used to think like that when I was a believer. I've had plenty of conversations with my cousin about religion, and he thinks the same way about the worldview of atheists.  Atheists can't know right from wrong "objectively",


    It shouldn't be too hard to prove him wrong.  Just show us the evidence that good and evil exist?

    Quote from: Aziz
    they have no motivation to do good,


    Oh, they have motivations, just no reasons to call any particular results either good or bad.

    Quote from: Aziz
    they believe in pure randomness, they have to invent a purpose for their meaningless lives...and they either have to live in extreme hedonism or extreme nihilism


    Like I said, irrationality abounds among atheists.  Like any of us, atheists can live quite happily and inconsistently with what they really believe.

    Quote from: Aziz
    Oh, we eat babies, too! With Tabasco sauce they are especially succulent.

    And I find it astonishing how often this is the response from atheists when asked this question about what they believe.  'Well, I think I'm a moral person, so good and bad must exist!'.  It's about equivalent to the theists who say that 'I feel that God exists'.

    Quote from: Aziz
    Those are the reasons for why my cousin would never ever consider becoming an apostate. He says he's got a special feeling that his religion is the Right One. His basis for morality is the Qur'an and hopefully his ratio, too. Without that guide, he thinks he would be completely lost.

    And what reasons can you give him for thinking otherwise?  Are there any reasons for thinking that it matters at all what he believes?

    Quote from: Aziz
    Why is my cousin so certain of his book? Why are Christians so certain of their book? Why are Jews so certain of their book? Why Hindus and Scilons? Surely they all can't be right


    Is anyone saying that they are all right?

    Quote from: Aziz
    My cousin sees absurdity in other religions, yet he is unwilling to admit absurdity in his own. What does that remind you of? It reminds me of a boy who is enamoured of a beautiful girl. No matter how much you try to point out flaws in her that make her an unsuitable partner, he will not listen, because his senses are numbed, by the thought of laying one. In a similar way, believers are in love with their religion unable and unwilling to spot any discrepancies in it. And if it's not love, it most probably is habit or fear, which keeps a person in a religion.

    Which could just as well be a description of where you find yourself.  Our worldviews form the basis of how we live our lives.  Adopting other worldviews often mean wholesale changes.  For some it may even be life-threatening.  It's hardly surprising that people are reluctant to change their fundamental view of the world.  I don't think that is any different for the non-religious as it is for the religious.  Of course, maybe you don't see this characteristic in yourself.  I wonder why that would be?

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #46 - November 29, 2008, 12:38 PM


    Once again, the point is not that you 'lose morals'.  The point is that you have no reason for believing that 'morals' exist.


    Once again, you're getting stuck on semantics over the same thing.  My point remains the same, you may believe that without god there need be no morals, I do not.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #47 - November 29, 2008, 01:15 PM

    My point remains the same, you may believe that without god there need be no morals, I do not.  Afro


    You may find this quote from an article in the New Scientist interesting: "What good is God?" by Helen Phillips

    "The idea that we have an innate sense of right and wrong has been brought to prominence again by the Harvard University cognitive psychologist Marc Hauser, with the publication of his book Moral Minds. He likens morality to language and its innate core to our innate sense of grammar. In other words, at the heart of human moral codes lie common rules and features that come hard-wired at birth.

    Hauser suggests that each culture and generation learns to interpret the moral grammar slightly differently, but the rules, fixed in the biology of the brain, remain the same. One reason he believes this is that the origins of morality, altruism and fair play can be seen in our group-living primate cousins, in behaviours such as loyalty to kin, intolerance of theft and punishment of cheats..."


    Full article here:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526190.400-what-good-is-god.html?full=true
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #48 - November 29, 2008, 01:21 PM

    Another interesting quote from the same article:

    "As a result of this work a new view is emerging that challenges simplistic ideas about the link between religion and morality. Instead of religion being a source of morality or immorality, some researchers now believe that morality and religion are both deep-rooted aspects of human nature. We do not need religion to live moral lives, but without it morality might never have evolved. This kind of thinking could explain the complex and apparently contradictory relationship between religious beliefs and moral behaviour that is being demonstrated. It could also make some sense of religion's remarkable staying power, as well as highlighting the futility of attempts to persuade believers to abandon their faith by rational argument."
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #49 - November 29, 2008, 01:26 PM

    In fact the article is just too good not to post in it's entirety:

    What good is God?

    by Helen Phillips

    RELIGION occupies a strange position in the world today. Religious belief is as powerful as ever, yet religion is under attack, challenged by science and Enlightenment thought as never before. Critics like Richard Dawkins would have us believe that it is a delusion, and a dangerous one at that. He is one of many thinkers who are challenging the traditional view of religion as a source of morality. Instead, they argue that it provides a means for justifying immoral acts.

    Their views have recently been bolstered by evidence that morality appears to be hard-wired into our brains. It seems we are born with a sense of right and wrong, and that no amount of religious indoctrination will change our most basic moral instincts.

    Many biologists are not convinced by such radical views, however. Recent years have seen a flurry of activity by researchers who want to assess the effects of religion on human behaviour. It is a fiendishly difficult area for science, but they are starting to address the issue by looking at how religion might have evolved, what purpose it has served, and whether it really can make you a moral person - or an immoral one.

    As a result of this work a new view is emerging that challenges simplistic ideas about the link between religion and morality. Instead of religion being a source of morality or immorality, some researchers now believe that morality and religion are both deep-rooted aspects of human nature. We do not need religion to live moral lives, but without it morality might never have evolved. This kind of thinking could explain the complex and apparently contradictory relationship between religious beliefs and moral behaviour that is being demonstrated. It could also make some sense of religion's remarkable staying power, as well as highlighting the futility of attempts to persuade believers to abandon their faith by rational argument.

    There is no shortage of research supporting the case for religion as a force for good. In the late 1970s and 1980s sociologists Rodney Stark and William Sims Bainbridge, then at the University of Washington in Seattle, forcefully argued the line that religious beliefs correlated with moral behaviour. Their studies showed that church attendance and religiosity increase the collective understanding of moral norms and make people less likely to turn to crime. More recently, various surveys have suggested that moderate religious people are happier, more caring, just and compassionate, and give more money to charity. Other studies show that religion can help people quit smoking, drugs and alcohol. Religion can also affect people's sexual morality. Recent research by RAND Health, a US non-profit policy research group, has found that people with HIV who professed religious beliefs had fewer sexual partners than those who were not religious (Journal of Sex Research, vol 44, p 49).

    However, religious belief is not the only moral guide, even for believers. The RAND study also found that HIV-positive Catholics were more likely to use condoms than other groups despite their church's prohibition on birth control. "Catholics increasingly are inclined to consider their individual consciences as sources of moral authority," says David Kanouse, one of the study's authors. The work certainly doesn't contradict the view that moral values come from within (see "Born to be moral"), suggesting instead that religion can provide an additional source of rationalisation to help us interpret our innate sense of right and wrong.

    How does this square with claims that religion makes for bad people and bad societies? Dawkins and others point to many examples of the use of religious beliefs to rationalise acts of hatred or war. They also cite morally reprehensible acts endorsed in religious scripture - stoning adulterers, heretics and homosexuals, beating or killing disobedient children, acceptance of slavery, even prostituting one's own daughter. They argue that religion is just a by-product of other cognitive processes and has nothing to do with our underlying morality. Besides, many atheists manage to be good without God - and religious believers are not necessarily better at following their own moral codes than non-believers. Philosopher Dan Dennett from Tufts University in Boston points out that the prison population - at least in the US - has the same religious structure as the rest of society, and that divorce rates among Christians are if anything higher than among non-religious Americans.
    Many atheists manage to be good without God

    In 2005, Greg Paul, an independent researcher from Baltimore, Maryland, published a study that attempted to quantify negative effects of religion (Journal of Religion and Society, vol 7, p 1). He compared levels of religiosity with various indicators of social dysfunction in 18 developed nations. He concluded that countries with higher rates of belief and worship had higher rates of homicide, death among children and young adults, sexually transmitted diseases, teen pregnancy and abortion. Paul now believes that morality does not stem from religion, and that religion arises from insecurity within society. "Mass belief in gods is primarily a fear and anxiety-based response to insufficiently secure financial circumstances, and does not have a deep neurobiological, genetic or other basis," he says.

    His study has not been without critics, however. Some researchers have argued that his choice of nations and indicators of moral health were selective. In an attempt to provide a more rigorous test, sociologist Gary Jensen from Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, conducted a more detailed analysis of just one of Paul's indicators, homicide, to see how it correlated with various religious beliefs. He found that homicide rates were indeed linked with passionate beliefs, though the strongest correlation occurred in societies with prominent dualist beliefs in good and evil, God and the devil. The highest rates were seen in the US - where as many as 96 per cent of the population claim to believe in God and 76 per cent in the devil - along with the Philippines, the Dominican Republic and South Africa. The correlation was much weaker in societies with a belief in God, but no strong beliefs in the devil, such as Sweden, where only 18 per cent claim to believe in both. "Gods do matter," Jensen says, "but in a far more complex manner than proposed." (Journal of Religion and Society, vol 8, p 1).

    A similarly complex picture has emerged about the role of religion as a force for good. Daniel Batson, a social psychologist from the University of Kansas in Lawrence, looked at two categories: "intrinsic" religiosity - belief in God and a motivation to attend church as an end in itself - and "extrinsic" religiosity - where religion and churchgoing are seen primarily as social activities, often undertaken for personal gain. He found some correlation between intrinsic religious beliefs and compassion or reduced prejudice. By contrast, extrinsic religiosity is linked to increased prejudice - people in this group tend to be less helpful to others, and when they do assist it is only for people they see as the "right" sort.

    Batson also identifies a third category he calls "quest" religiosity - a more questioning form of spirituality. His experiments reveal that while people in this category show intolerance of behaviour that violates their own values, they are nevertheless the most tolerant and helpful towards people who exhibit such behaviour.

    Such studies lend some support to the idea that religion influences moral behaviour. Yet they also raise the question of whether it does this primarily within a believer's own social group, or whether it engenders a more universal compassion and altruism. Peter Richerson, a specialist in cultural evolution, and human ecologist Brian Paciotti, both from the University of California, Davis, used economic games to examine this distinction.

    The dictator game tests people's altruism and sense of fair play. One person gets $10 and is told to offer some of it to another, anonymous player - the amount offered is due to the first player. The recipient can either accept the offered amount, in which case both parties keep their share, or punish perceived unfairness by rejecting the offer so that nobody gets a payout. In the trust game, a person is given $10 and can hand any amount to another unknown person, but this time the sum they give is doubled, and the recipient then chooses how much to return. Here the best strategy is to hand over all the money - provided that the recipient reciprocates your trust. Finally, in the public goods game, people contribute to a public fund that is then doubled by the organisers and shared out equally. The game is played anonymously and tests all kinds of morality, including the amount of altruism and cheating. The group does best if everyone donates the maximum, but generally lots of people cheat.

    Richerson and Paciotti conducted all three games both in a secular university and with churchgoers who had just attended a service. They found that secular and religious people did behave differently. "There are weak and subtle effects where people who [say they are] highly religious give more," Paciotti says. This might suggest that religion fosters universal cooperation. However, like Batson, the team found that only people with intrinsic or questing religiosity were more generous and trusting, and less likely to punish unfairly. Extrinsically religious people were actually less altruistic than the non-religious. These results will please no one, says Richerson, as they show that religion is neither vital for morality nor always has a negative effect. Paciotti believes the findings support the idea that humans are hard-wired to be moral and cooperative, with religion serving to define the nature and scope of that moral behaviour and influence with whom we cooperate.

    Another reason that the effects of religiosity on morality have been hard to tease apart is highlighted by a new study that also uses the dictator game. Psychologists Azim Shariff and Ara Norenzayan from the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada, found that by presenting people first with a word game unscrambling either religious or non-religious phrases, even atheists could be primed to be more generous to an anonymous partner by exposure to the religious words (Psychological Science, in press). People did not notice when the game had a particularly religious theme, say the researchers, suggesting that the priming effect is unconscious. Likewise, psychologist Brad Bushman from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, found that both Christian and non-religious people were more aggressive towards an anonymous person after reading a religious text describing how a husband took revenge for the torture and murder of his wife - but only if they had been told that the story came from the Bible or if it contained an additional verse in which God seemed to sanction the husband's violence (Psychological Science, vol 18, p 204).
    You are being watched

    So why do religious concepts provoke moral behaviour even in non-believers? It's because both religion and morality are evolutionary adaptations, says Jesse Bering, who heads the Institute of Cognition and Culture at Queen's University, Belfast, UK. Morality does not stem from religion, as is often argued, he suggests: they evolved separately, albeit in response to the same forces in our social environment. Once our ancestors acquired language and theory of mind - the ability to understand what others are thinking - news of any individual's reputation could spread far beyond their immediate group. Anyone with tendencies to behave pro-socially would then have been at an advantage, Bering says: "What we're concerned about in terms of our moral behaviour is what other people think about us." So morality became adaptive.

    At the same time the capacity for religious belief would also have emerged. Our reputation-conscious ancestors would have experienced a pervasive feeling of being watched and judged, he says, which they would readily have attributed to supernatural sources since the cognitive system underlying theory of mind also seeks to attribute intentionality and meaning, even where there is none. So the same adaptations that led to morality could also have driven the evolution of religion.

    Meanwhile, evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson of the State University of New York argues that religious practices are also important for group cohesion and are therefore subject to group selection. As humans have become ever more social over the past 100,000 years, and especially from 10,000 years ago, when agriculture led to huge division of labour in societies, religion and morality would have co-evolved as ways to promote social cohesion. "Religion did play a crucial role in giving us our moral nature, at least evolutionarily speaking," says psychologist Jonathan Haidt from the University of Virginia.

    Nowadays, adds Bering, whether we believe in a God or not, the brain architecture that causes us to behave as though we might get caught behaving badly is still present. As a result, atheists are no more likely to be immoral than believers. Indeed, his own experiments show that, regardless of whether people believe in supernatural beings, both adults and children cheat less when performing a task in private if Bering has first primed them with the idea that there may be a "god" or a "ghost" watching.

    Cultural and technological advances have also changed the way we live, making western liberal societies poor models for understanding the link between religion and morality, according to Haidt. He argues that we are now far more individualistic than our ancestors. "Technology has changed our lives so we can live in new ways. We can now be moral without religion. We have developed other means of social control," he says, such as laws, police forces and CCTV cameras.

    Yet religion does still have the power to galvanise individuals in any society. Brain-imaging experiments by Andrew Newberg at the University of Pennsylvania indicate that people in religious or meditative states show a transient decrease in brain activity in regions representing our map of the body and our sense of self. Religious feelings do seem to be quite literally self-less, which may be one of religion's biggest draws. Many human activities - from music festivals to military service - tap into our powerful urge for group bonding. Haidt believes that we also have an evolved desire to elevate ourselves beyond our own selfish interests to a more helpful, group-oriented and selfless plane.

    Haidt says this sense of elevation is mediated through a physiological response in the release of a hormone called oxytocin, which makes us feel happy and good about ourselves. Elevation can come in many forms: we might get it from pursuing a noble goal, doing good, reading great prose, witnessing something skilful, experiencing awe or empathising with someone else who is feeling good. Still, religious people have an extra source of elevation that many atheists lack - and scientists like Dawkins may do well to realise that even the most logical and articulate argument against religion will never eradicate this evolutionary sense of meaning.

    Even if many no longer need religion for social cohesion or moral guidance, and think that atheism is the only rational route, we should nevertheless recognise that religion has had a pivotal role in our evolutionary history. It can still reinforce moral values and work with our innate moral sense. It can also be used to justify immoral behaviour towards those who do not embrace our beliefs. Like it or not, religion remains an important part of what we are.
    Born to be moral

    The idea that we have an innate sense of right and wrong has been brought to prominence again by the Harvard University cognitive psychologist Marc Hauser, with the publication of his book Moral Minds. He likens morality to language and its innate core to our innate sense of grammar. In other words, at the heart of human moral codes lie common rules and features that come hard-wired at birth.

    Hauser suggests that each culture and generation learns to interpret the moral grammar slightly differently, but the rules, fixed in the biology of the brain, remain the same.

    One reason he believes this is that the origins of morality, altruism and fair play can be seen in our group-living primate cousins, in behaviours such as loyalty to kin, intolerance of theft and punishment of cheats.

    Another reason is that moral decisions are made intuitively, rather than consciously or rationally. People come up with similar answers when faced with a particular moral dilemma, yet Hauser and his colleagues have shown that their reasoning to justify their answers is variable and inconsistent, suggesting it is done after the choice has already been made.

    They also find no difference in fundamental moral choices made by thousands of people of different faiths and none in answer to questionnaires posing moral dilemmas. This suggests that inbuilt morality is independent of learned religious codes.

    Undeniably, there are differences over time and cultures in attitudes towards issues such as slavery, racism, capital punishment and abortion. Even so, Hauser argues, the innate sense remains the same; it is the interpretation that changes.

    So how is morality hard-wired into our brains? The consensus among brain scientists is that emotions such as fear, guilt and pride are vitally important.

    Jonathan Haidt from the University of Virginia used a hypnosis experiment to show how important emotions are. Under hypnosis, he induced people to feel disgust when they heard a couple of arbitrary words. When these words later came up in connection with moral dilemmas, the subjects judged certain scenarios to be wrong when people who had not been hypnotised did not. When asked to justify their choices, they could not do so to the researchers' satisfaction. Without knowing how or why, their emotions had altered their sense of right and wrong.

    Brain-scanning studies have shown a link between damage to the brain regions that house the social emotions and a tendency to make aberrant moral choices. Still, there is more to morality than emotion. Most researchers now think that emotions influence the way our moral decisions are turned into actions or choices, rather than how the decisions are made in the first place. Other brain regions involved in empathy and attributing beliefs about intentions are important too.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526190.400-what-good-is-god.html?full=true
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #50 - November 29, 2008, 05:18 PM


    Once again, the point is not that you 'lose morals'.  The point is that you have no reason for believing that 'morals' exist.


    Once again, you're getting stuck on semantics over the same thing.  My point remains the same, you may believe that without god there need be no morals, I do not.  Afro

    Then, much as you would ask me for the evidence for my God, I am asking 'what is the evidence for your morals'?
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #51 - November 29, 2008, 05:31 PM

    But sparky, if you don't have any evidence for your God, then you don't have any evidence for the morals you claim to base on him.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #52 - November 29, 2008, 05:47 PM

    My point remains the same, you may believe that without god there need be no morals, I do not.  Afro


    You may find this quote from an article in the New Scientist interesting: "What good is God?" by Helen Phillips

    "The idea that we have an innate sense of right and wrong has been brought to prominence again by the Harvard University cognitive psychologist Marc Hauser, with the publication of his book Moral Minds. He likens morality to language and its innate core to our innate sense of grammar. In other words, at the heart of human moral codes lie common rules and features that come hard-wired at birth.

    Hauser suggests that each culture and generation learns to interpret the moral grammar slightly differently, but the rules, fixed in the biology of the brain, remain the same. One reason he believes this is that the origins of morality, altruism and fair play can be seen in our group-living primate cousins, in behaviours such as loyalty to kin, intolerance of theft and punishment of cheats..."


    Full article here:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526190.400-what-good-is-god.html?full=true

    I'm not sure this changes anything we have discussed already.  All this would mean is that we are all born with some sense that certain things are really right and others are really wrong.  I and a Pushtun tribesman are both born with a sense that it matters what other people think of us (honour) that is hardwired into us.  Through our cultures, this is interpreted such that it honour is prioritised for the tribesman more than it is for me.  He acts according to his set of values, I act according to mine.  When he kills someone in order to restore his honour, this offends me.  Once I understand the basis of his actions, however, I realise that I actually have no real reason to be offended - we've just 'interpreted' differently.

    Morality is truly relative and, in reality, no values exist outside of our own minds - i.e. nihilism is true.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #53 - November 29, 2008, 05:47 PM

    But sparky, if you don't have any evidence for your God, then you don't have any evidence for the morals you claim to base on him.

    Who said I didn't have evidence for God?  The evidence problem is yours, not mine.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #54 - November 29, 2008, 06:13 PM

    But sparky, if you don't have any evidence for your God, then you don't have any evidence for the morals you claim to base on him.

    Who said I didn't have evidence for God?  The evidence problem is yours, not mine.


    But you don't have evidence for God.  This conversation has already been had - your "evidence" is the Bible. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #55 - November 29, 2008, 06:14 PM


    Who said I didn't have evidence for God?  The evidence problem is yours, not mine.


     Cheesy You don't need to say it, NO ONE has evidence for gods existance so no one needed you to say it.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #56 - November 29, 2008, 06:47 PM

    But sparky, if you don't have any evidence for your God, then you don't have any evidence for the morals you claim to base on him.

    Who said I didn't have evidence for God?  The evidence problem is yours, not mine.


    But you don't have evidence for God.  This conversation has already been had - your "evidence" is the Bible. 

    Clearly you weren't paying attention.  But even if I don't, it wouldn't mean that good or bad really exist.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #57 - November 29, 2008, 06:52 PM


    Who said I didn't have evidence for God?  The evidence problem is yours, not mine.


     Cheesy You don't need to say it, NO ONE has evidence for gods existance so no one needed you to say it.  Afro

    Laugh away.  I'm still waiting to hear your evidence for what you believe to be good and bad.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #58 - November 29, 2008, 07:14 PM

    Quote
    Clearly you weren't paying attention.  But even if I don't, it wouldn't mean that good or bad really exist.


    Clearly - I definitely thought you said your evidence was the Bible.  So what is it then?  Where's your evidence that God even exists?  Without it, you're in the same boat that you claim us to be in.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #59 - November 30, 2008, 02:26 PM

    Quote
    Clearly you weren't paying attention.  But even if I don't, it wouldn't mean that good or bad really exist.


    Clearly - I definitely thought you said your evidence was the Bible.  So what is it then?  Where's your evidence that God even exists?  Without it, you're in the same boat that you claim us to be in.

    Go read the thread.

    Are you admitting that 'your boat' completely lacks evidence for what you believe to be good and bad?
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