Second Class Existence

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- speaklow
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Second Class Existence
OP - November 29, 2008, 07:27 PM

From reading about Islam over the last few years I get the impression that the human form as well as humanity itself tends to be regarded as a second class existence.

At least this is the impression I get.

I was just wondering if any members knew of any hadith of quranic texts that might back up this idea.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #1 - November 29, 2008, 07:44 PM

Quote from: speaklow on November 29, 2008, 07:27 PM
From reading about Islam over the last few years I get the impression that the human form as well as humanity itself tends to be regarded as a second class existence.

At least this is the impression I get.

I was just wondering if any members knew of any hadith of quranic texts that might back up this idea.

I'm not sure what you mean, Speaklow. Could you elaborate a bit more?
- speaklow
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #2 - November 29, 2008, 07:50 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 29, 2008, 07:44 PM
Quote from: speaklow on November 29, 2008, 07:27 PM
From reading about Islam over the last few years I get the impression that the human form as well as humanity itself tends to be regarded as a second class existence.

At least this is the impression I get.

I was just wondering if any members knew of any hadith of quranic texts that might back up this idea.

I'm not sure what you mean, Speaklow. Could you elaborate a bit more?

Well one of the arguments that Muslims use against Christians, and perhaps rightly so, that God, if he exists would not represent himself as a man is generally the following

'How can God be a man and shit, eat and masturbate like everyone else.

The argument is as valid as any other as we are yet to prove God exists but what I am hearing with this is an underlying disdain for the human form and perhaps humanity itself.

It's just the impression I get.
- speaklow
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #3 - November 29, 2008, 07:59 PM

I should add that this disdain for humanity is not unique to Islam and would also have been prevalent amongst Christians but admittedly some time ago.

I suppose really in this respect Islam just needs to catch up and be more humane than it currently is.

I was just wondering if there were any Islamic text/trains of thought that perpetuated this idea.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #4 - November 29, 2008, 08:02 PM

Quote from: speaklow on November 29, 2008, 07:50 PM
Quote from: Hassan on November 29, 2008, 07:44 PM
Quote from: speaklow on November 29, 2008, 07:27 PM
From reading about Islam over the last few years I get the impression that the human form as well as humanity itself tends to be regarded as a second class existence.

At least this is the impression I get.

I was just wondering if any members knew of any hadith of quranic texts that might back up this idea.

I'm not sure what you mean, Speaklow. Could you elaborate a bit more?

Well one of the arguments that Muslims use against Christians, and perhaps rightly so, that God, if he exists would not represent himself as a man is generally the following

'How can God be a man and shit, eat and masturbate like everyone else.

The argument is as valid as any other as we are yet to prove God exists but what I am hearing with this is an underlying disdain for the human form and perhaps humanity itself.

It's just the impression I get.

I have never had that impression, Speaklow. There is definitely a strong sense amongst Muslims that God is far above the human form or human needs - such as going to the toilet etc...

But there is no disdain for the human form or humanity afaik - in fact the only verse that comes to mind is the one that says "Khalaqnakum fi ahsani taqweem" "We created you in the best of forms"

Though the thing about Islam is that there are so many interpretations and a multitude of contradictory hadiths that one can find evidence for almost anything.

That is another reason I say there is no such thing as "True" Islam.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #5 - November 29, 2008, 08:07 PM

To add to what I said above - there is a belief that those who do not believe become the 'worst of the worst' as the next verse in the one I quoted says - also in sura Bayyinah it says a similar thing.
- speaklow
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #6 - November 29, 2008, 08:12 PM

Thanks Hassan.

I know the text I wrote may have been a bit graphic but I've seen that argument posted on YouTube videos at least half a dozen times.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #7 - November 29, 2008, 08:23 PM

Quote from: speaklow on November 29, 2008, 08:12 PM
Thanks Hassan.

I know the text I wrote may have been a bit graphic but I've seen that argument posted on YouTube videos at least half a dozen times.

Oh, yes, I've heard it myself - it is a common reaction (though not always so graphic) to the Christian assertion of God becoming a man in Jesus.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #8 - November 29, 2008, 08:29 PM

It comes from some verses that talk about God sending Jesus as a prophet who 'ate food and walked through the streets' - I'm sure I've read tafseers that pointed out that this 'eating food' implies other things, such as going to the toilet - and that this is to emphasis the 'human' nature of Jesus and that he was not the son of God.
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #9 - November 29, 2008, 08:32 PM

Well caring about this world is supposed to be secondary though, everything the believer does is with the aim to get into heaven. Charity is not done for charities sake, it is done for "ajhar" to get into heaven, same as any good thing one is told to do.

I did used to see this as a secondary existance, we are here but we are not meant to love it in the same way as the kuffar, who get their reward on this earth.

This dunya is meaningless.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #10 - November 29, 2008, 08:45 PM

It still bothers Christians though. Depict Jesus with a hard-on and watch the reactions you'll get...

"At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
- Variable
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #11 - November 30, 2008, 04:13 AM

Speaking of poo...

Whenever the old question "Is Allah everywhere?" comes up - the more salafi-type folks will be quick to respond:

"Hah! of course Allah is not everywhere! Do you think Allah would present in...... the BATHROOM!? Hahah, of course not! How could Allah be in a bathroom? It's logically impossible. That's utterly ridiculous to even think of such a thing! That Allah could be in such an impure place! Astagfirallah!"

-leaving me a little bewildered. I'm not that into evolutionary biology, but as far as I know, we developed the gross-out response to defecation because there are harmful bacteria and parasites that are commonly transmitted through human/animal waste. So that would really only be of concern to something of human limitations. It shouldn't be 'gross' to God.

But... they'll have none of it.
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #12 - November 30, 2008, 05:48 AM

Quote from: Variable on November 30, 2008, 04:13 AM

Speaking of poo...

Whenever the old question "Is Allah everywhere?" comes up - the more salafi-type folks will be quick to respond:

"Hah! of course Allah is not everywhere! Do you think Allah would present in...... the BATHROOM!? Hahah, of course not! How could Allah be in a bathroom? It's logically impossible. That's utterly ridiculous to even think of such a thing! That Allah could be in such an impure place! Astagfirallah!"

-leaving me a little bewildered. I'm not that into evolutionary biology, but as far as I know, we developed the gross-out response to defecation because there are harmful bacteria and parasites that are commonly transmitted through human/animal waste. So that would really only be of concern to something of human limitations. It shouldn't be 'gross' to God.

But... they'll have none of it.

Heh. That's a good point. I'd never thought of it. "Being disgusted by bodily functions is so human! How could Allah be grossed out by anything? It's logically impossible! It's utterly ridiculous!"

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #13 - November 30, 2008, 10:48 AM

Quote from: Variable on November 30, 2008, 04:13 AM

Whenever the old question "Is Allah everywhere?" comes up - the more salafi-type folks will be quick to respond:

...Do you think Allah would present in...... the BATHROOM!? ...Astagfirallah!"

yep... Had this conversation many times - it always had the effect of making an absurd image of God in a toilet pop into my head - it would never have occurred yo me otherwise LOL
- sojournerlumus
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #14 - November 30, 2008, 02:13 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
Quote from: Variable on November 30, 2008, 04:13 AM

Whenever the old question "Is Allah everywhere?" comes up - the more salafi-type folks will be quick to respond:

...Do you think Allah would present in...... the BATHROOM!? ...Astagfirallah!"

yep... Had this conversation many times - it always had the effect of making an absurd image of God in a toilet pop into my head - it would never have occurred yo me otherwise LOL

So why should the Throne of Heaven be different to any other throne.
But seriously, Humans aren't the only Anthropoids with a poo complex. It's often been noted that Chimps , in particular, throw handsful of dung at any chimp they want to ostracise. So humans aren't peculiar in that respect.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Second Class Existence
Reply #15 - November 30, 2008, 03:41 PM

Quote
So why should the Throne of Heaven be different to any other throne.

HAHAHAHA!

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

The sleeper has awakened - Dune

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
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