Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Nour
- Ex-Muslim
- Misanthropic ex-'revert'
- offline
Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
OP - December 02, 2008, 10:15 AM

Quote
A Jordanian man has been jailed for seven-and-a-half years for killing his married sister in what he said was an act to save the family's honour.

The man strangled the 16-year-old after she refused to explain absences from her marital home, the court heard. It emerged she had seen a female friend.

The sentence had been reduced as her family decided not to press charges.

Jordan has been criticised in the past for giving lenient sentences in so-called honour killing cases.

Such offences have in the past carried sentences as light as just six months.

Around 15 to 20 women are murdered each year in Jordan, often by male relatives in the name of family "honour".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7759537.stm

JESUS! This makes me absolutely sick! Only seven-and-a-half years for killing his own sister! And just because she went to visit a friend without notifying her family beforehand!

We all know that this jerk will be free and walking the streets again within a year... Sigh...

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

The sleeper has awakened - Dune

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #1 - December 02, 2008, 10:28 AM

It's amazing how differently honour is viewed in different cultures/religions. To me the dishonour to the family comes from having a murderous son, to them it comes from having a "rebellious" daughter.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- a.ghazali
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #2 - December 02, 2008, 11:07 AM

Quote from: Nour on December 02, 2008, 10:15 AM
JESUS! This makes me absolutely sick! Only seven-and-a-half years for killing his own sister! And just because she went to visit a friend without notifying her family beforehand!

We all know that this jerk will be free and walking the streets again within a year... Sigh...

Nour your other thread about 'Reclaiming My Religion' the author would obviously deny that the source of such atrocities is Islam.

Later I will post an extract from what I'm writing to show a clear link and justification for honour with Islam.

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
- a.ghazali
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #3 - December 02, 2008, 11:11 AM

Here it is:

Quote
Honour killings, which occurs almost exclusively within Muslim communities is continually dismissed by apologists as being cultural traditions and is in no way Islamic. But when we analyse regions where the Muslim diaspora now extends, we notice that honour killings suddenly becomes part of the scenery. The Qur'an provides the proviso for subduing or eliminating any dishonourable element from a family; for in Islam honour is more important than life.

Q4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Qur?an 17:32 describes adultery as shameful and evil, Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful and an evil. For many Muslims any romantic relationship outside marriage and the ummah is considered shameful and attracts shame unto the entire family.

There are many ahadith that sanction the killing of those committing adultery or shaming to a family with non-marital relationships.

Sahih Muslim 17:4206 describes the plight of a woman guilty of adultery, A woman came to the prophet and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Muhammad handed the child over to the community. She was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.

Those guilty of such crimes in Islamic countries are usually not prosecuted; for their actions can be easily justified under Sharia as maintaining societal ethics as proclaimed in scripture. Therefore denying that honour killing finds its roots in Islam is tantamount to perpetuating this heinous crime wherever Islam treads.

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #4 - December 02, 2008, 11:20 AM

a.ghazali,
Actually Islam is not just about picking a Quranic verse or Hadith. Most of the fiqh scholars from all Madhabs agree that, common man should not take justice in his hand. Justice should be done by Shariah Court. Rather the best practise for a common man is to hide the sins of Muslim brother/sister if the person who committed sin repents. So, Honour killings are not part of Islam.

Yes, Sharia justice is totally different issue. But, again Shariah prescribes the same punishment for a man guilty of adultery not just female. So, it is part of law and not to protect honour. Obviously, I oppose Sharia.

And Honour Killings do not exclusively occur in Muslim communities. A considerable amount of Honour killings occur in Indian villages and tribes and many other south asian communties.
- a.ghazali
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #5 - December 02, 2008, 11:52 AM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on December 02, 2008, 11:20 AM
a.ghazali,
Actually Islam is not just about picking a Quranic verse or Hadith. Most of the fiqh scholars from all Madhabs agree that, common man should not take justice in his hand. Justice should be done by Shariah Court. Rather the best practise for a common man is to hide the sins of Muslim brother/sister if the person who committed sin repents. So, Honour killings are not part of Islam.

Yes, Sharia justice is totally different issue. But, again Shariah prescribes the same punishment for a man guilty of adultery not just female. So, it is part of law and not to protect honour. Obviously, I oppose Sharia.

And Honour Killings do not exclusively occur in Muslim communities. A considerable amount of Honour killings occur in Indian villages and tribes and many other south asian communties.

I still feel there are ample suggestions provided in Islam that allows honour killing to continue. That is why it is so prevalent in Islamic societies.

You also forget that India was ruled by Muslims for almost 800 years. So much of the Islamic tradition would have made its way into its society. The British ruled for a mere 200 years and we can see what influence that had. So the Islamic cultural influence would have been much greater.

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #6 - December 02, 2008, 12:10 PM

a.ghazali,
Honour killings in India would still happen without any Islamic influence as well. THere are a lot of cultural and social issues still to be resolved in India.

I mean I don't see roots of many of the Indian problems in Islam. If I go through Pre-Islamic Indian texts, female child was always less desirable. Once, female child is born she can either be a saint like one making sacrifices of others and she will be worshipped, or she is a sinner.
She just can't be an individual making her own choices and living at her conditions.

I don't like to be unfair towards Islam.
- a.ghazali
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #7 - December 02, 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on December 02, 2008, 12:10 PM
a.ghazali,
Honour killings in India would still happen without any Islamic influence as well. THere are a lot of cultural and social issues still to be resolved in India.

I mean I don't see roots of many of the Indian problems in Islam. If I go through Pre-Islamic Indian texts, female child was always less desirable. Once, female child is born she can either be a saint like one making sacrifices of others and she will be worshipped, or she is a sinner.
She just can't be an individual making her own choices and living at her conditions.

I don't like to be unfair towards Islam.

Its not about being unfair. Its just looking from a scriptural PoV I can see things in Islamic scriptures that points to subjugation of women.

Such things may happen in India but I have yet to have somenone point out where in The Gita or Ramayan or Mahabharat it says women are to be so treated. I have never read them myself though. So that is why I say if it happens in India it could be cultural and inheritied from the dominating culture.

But I take your point.

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #8 - December 02, 2008, 12:24 PM

I understand your point as well. We can not deny Islamic cultural influences. For example, in North India women cover their face with sarees, it is due to Islamic influence. This practice does not exist in south India.

If you see sculptures and paintings made during Buddist, Jain and Vedic period, half dressed femlaes are seen. they are neither considered taboo nor as objects.

Hinduism is not a Monolith faith. There will be nice bits like Githa, Upanishad etc. But, it does have bits like Manusmriti which says a female should never be independent and always remain under father, brother, husband or son. And she should be married as soon as she starts puberty. And all these is written atleast 700 yrs before Islam.
- Manat
- Great googa mooga!
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #9 - December 02, 2008, 04:34 PM

Quote from: a.ghazali on December 02, 2008, 11:52 AM

I still feel there are ample suggestions provided in Islam that allows honour killing to continue. That is why it is so prevalent in Islamic societies.

Then why do the Christians and other non Muslims in that region do it too?

Quote
You also forget that India was ruled by Muslims for almost 800 years. So much of the Islamic tradition would have made its way into its society. The British ruled for a mere 200 years and we can see what influence that had. So the Islamic cultural influence would have been much greater.

As much fun as it is to blame Muslims for everything on this one I do not agree with you. The murder and violence against women and girls is found in every single culture around the world. The Muslims do not have a monopoly on killing over sexual pride and honor.

[this space for rent]
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #10 - December 02, 2008, 04:35 PM

fading,
I agree. Sexist quotes in Hindu texts are atleast 700 yrs old than Islam.
- sparky
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #11 - December 02, 2008, 05:06 PM

Quote from: fading on December 02, 2008, 04:34 PM
Quote from: a.ghazali on December 02, 2008, 11:52 AM

I still feel there are ample suggestions provided in Islam that allows honour killing to continue. That is why it is so prevalent in Islamic societies.

Then why do the Christians and other non Muslims in that region do it too?

Quote
You also forget that India was ruled by Muslims for almost 800 years. So much of the Islamic tradition would have made its way into its society. The British ruled for a mere 200 years and we can see what influence that had. So the Islamic cultural influence would have been much greater.

As much fun as it is to blame Muslims for everything on this one I do not agree with you. The murder and violence against women and girls is found in every single culture around the world. The Muslims do not have a monopoly on killing over sexual pride and honor.

I agree that shame and honour cultures clearly exist outside of Islam and definitely predate it. However, I think that Islam has helped to cement it in place such that societies that adopy Islam become increasingly shame and honour based in ways that they weren't previously.

I think the logic of shame and honour stands on its own and doesn't need any particular God to support it. Shame and honour is where the highest goal of your behaviour it to maximise what others in your family/community think of you. When your honour is upheld, you live on beyond your death in your 'name'. It's like an attempt at eternal life. Even in the West, 'I want to be remembered' can be a pretty strong driving force.

In traditional societies, a man's honour is often bound up with how he is able to protect his women. Women therefore become vulnerable elements to a man's honour. The greater the risk to a man's honour, the stronger the 'protection' becomes - essentially through the all-out control of the woman.

For strong shame and honour societies, honour is like a glass that once broken cannot be put together again. When a person's honour is gone, it is as if they are dead. So actions to protect or restore honour become more and more extreme.
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #12 - December 02, 2008, 05:35 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on December 02, 2008, 11:20 AM
a.ghazali,
Actually Islam is not just about picking a Quranic verse or Hadith. Most of the fiqh scholars from all Madhabs agree that, common man should not take justice in his hand. Justice should be done by Shariah Court. Rather the best practise for a common man is to hide the sins of Muslim brother/sister if the person who committed sin repents. So, Honour killings are not part of Islam.

Yes, Sharia justice is totally different issue. But, again Shariah prescribes the same punishment for a man guilty of adultery not just female. So, it is part of law and not to protect honour. Obviously, I oppose Sharia.

And Honour Killings do not exclusively occur in Muslim communities. A considerable amount of Honour killings occur in Indian villages and tribes and many other south asian communties.

Hello L2Bcalm, in islam, people are taught that there is no intercession between themselves and allah.

Worse, islam always obfuscates its nasty bits by spreading this general idea among its followers that it is misinterpreted by the current rulers/interpreters/institutions. As such, the common muslim does not have a strong faith in his/her institutions to tell him him how to follow his religion.

Lastly, this killer *did* get his fatwa. Do not presume for a Second that every year there exist 15-20 deranged individual in this One stretch of land that go on just killing their female relatives. He got his fatwa, but unfortunately, he did not go for the 'mistrusted' government-approved mainstream sources of fatwa and he opted for a fatwa from a local cult leader in his mosque.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Jail for Jordan 'honour killing'
Reply #13 - December 02, 2008, 05:41 PM

Berbs, I agree there is a disproportionate amount of violent crimes of passion against women. I also agree that an islamic society has no inherent controls on this violence. Unless the controls are imposed on it from an outside culture, the murderous violence will go unchecked.

The sad fact is that, whenever islam settles in a society, it will amplify the violence towards women.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
1« Previous thread | Next thread »