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Theme Changer

 Topic: An article my friend wrote...

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  • An article my friend wrote...
     OP - December 06, 2008, 06:52 PM

    Hi ,

    A friend of mine who is also ex-muslim wrote a little piece after debating with his very religious cousin. He collated his thoughts on why he didn't believe in Islam and this became quite a cathatic exercise for him Smiley

    He wanted me to "improve" it if i could , and i am posting it here to see if we can constructively critique the essay.

    Any advice , additions or recommendations are greatly appreciated, especially if anyone has arguments they find particularly compelling.


    Here we go ( had to break this into a few parts to comply with word limits on the forum....)


    PART 1

    Hi

    As requested, please find some of the things that have led me to my thoughts today.

    As you are aware it was not a simple process that happened overnight, and has involved a lot of thought and is now probably more of a result of an ?evolutionary? process to where I am today.  I have tried to be concise, but this might not be as short as you might have hoped!  I don?t really want to be involved in a debate regarding the merits of Islam as I personally feel I have gone full circle and have reached a comfortable & robust conclusion with my thoughts, however given its contentious nature, should you wish to reply I promise to read it.  However all I ask of you is to read this without any precursory religious prejudice.

    As you know when I was in my teens I had a lot of questions and there were things in the religion that sat uncomfortably with me.  I remember having (yet another) discussion with you when you told me that to be a Muslim you have to accept that everything in the Quran is right, it is just our understanding that is limited.  Otherwise I had to admit I was not a Muslim. 

    I thought about this for a long period, as I did not want to disappoint my parents, and more to the point Allah, by accepting this point of view.  But I also felt just because they, and previous generations before them may have felt an innate ancestral obligation to follow the religion, it did not necessarily have to be that way with me.  After all they were brought up in a different time and place, and had we been idol worshippers as most of India still is, then I am sure they all would have been following that today (but hopefully I would still be in the same position as I am now).  I was happy to be convinced by Islam on its own virtues, not for any other reason.

    I will not spend much time discussing the more commonly cited arguments as you will have heard them before, such as:

    a sons right to twice a daughters inheritance;  its acceptance of men having four  wives (but not vice versa);  its attitude towards gay people;  divorce being easier for a man to do than a woman; a female witnesses testimony being worth half that of a man;   hijaab and the covering of a women?s face (although clearly the issue lies with man);  bank interest;  prophet marrying a 6 year old & being intimate with her at 9 years of age (according to most Islamic scholars, although a few say she was a few years older); as I believe it would be all too easy to come and find some argument that would ?justify? all these points i.e.

    i)   the Quran was misquoted
    ii)   the quote was meant to apply to that  day & age
    iii)   you have misunderstood it, read more and you will find an explanation
    iv)   I don?t know, God works in mysterious ways
    v)   you should not question  God, he created you, and your understanding is nothing compared to Gods

    However I could argue -

    i)      God would not have allowed his book to be misquoted otherwise innocent people would unknowingly do the wrong thing.  Or why didn't he just produce the book?  Why did he not correct them when errors were made?
    ii)      Islam and the prophet set a code of life to apply to all ages, not just for one generation.  Given that it was put to us by a superior being then it would have had the foresight to be able to apply to all generations, unless of course it was written by man (as a way to control the populace in a day when legal/policing structures were not prevalent or someone wanting power (e.g. another type of David Koresh))         
    iii)      Many Muslim scholars that have read more than I could ever hope to, have since denounced the religion.  It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues. 
    iv)   and  v) If we allowed this to occur, then we would all be still worshipping clay idols and still be none the wiser. 


    Nevertheless these were the type of questions I had not, and now realise will never, find an acceptable answer for.  It sowed the seeds of doubt and forced me to take a closer look at its contents and to read the translation of the Quran without blinkered vision, but this time without wishing & trying to make myself believe in it.  Yet the more I looked into it, the more I struggled with it...

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #1 - December 06, 2008, 06:54 PM

    PART 2

    A few interesting quotes from the ?Holy Book?
     
    1)    Wife beating
    Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
    15 IN SURA 38: "Thy wife; - on whom he had sworn that he would inflict an hundred blows, because she had absented herself from him when in need of her assistance, or for her words (Job ii.9). The oath was kept, we are told, by his giving her one blow with a rod of a hundred
     
    2)    Sex with slaves
    Quran gives men right to have sex with female slaves and their allotted four wives: "It is not permitted thee to take other wives hereafter, nor to change they present wives for other women, though their beauty charm thee, except slaves whom thy right hand shall possess. And God watcheth all things." Sura 33:52
     
    3)    Racism
    "The master does not have the right to force the female slave to wed to an ugly black slave if she is beautiful and agile unless in case of utmost necessity" (refer to Ibn Hazm, Vol. 6, Part 9, p. 469).
    "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." Sura (5:51) -

    Its general mistrust of Jews (it also says not to invite them to your house nor befriend them, but I can?t find the quote that I read a while ago in the Quran); however this quote probably illustrates the point
    ?As you can clearly see the Jews are cursed, till the end of time, Allah tried to help them?:Surah V Ayat 70

    Also if they are cursed then it is certainly not their fault.  Why not lift the curse, instead of treating them as inferior human beings, and also punishing them in the after-life?  Why should people be judged and punished on the actions of their forefathers, and not on those actions of themselves?
     
    4)    Rape
    And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319). (See also Suras 4:3 and 33:50)
    The hadith shows that Muslims jihadists actually have sex with the captured women, whether or not they are married. In the following passage, Khumus is one-fifth of the spoils of war. Ali, Muhammad?s cousin and son-in-law, just finished a relaxing bath. Why?
    The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and . . . Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus).
    Prophet?s response to the person who hated Ali for this sexual act?  Do you hate Ali for this? . . . Don?t hate him, for he deserves more than that from [the] Khumus. (Bukhari)

     
    6)    Violence
    The Quran is filled with many threats thrown at non-believers but the Quran says that it is Allah who causes people to believe or not believe
     
    (see  "He whom God guideth is the guided, and they whom he misleadeth shall be the lost." Sura 7:177 
    "No soul can believe but by the permission of God: and he shall lay his wrath on those who will not understand." - Sura 10:100 "And they who believe not say, 'Unless a sign be sent down to him from his Lord ...'  SAY: God truly will mislead whom he will; and He will guide to Himself him who turneth to Him,? Sura 13:27 
    "Had God pleased, He could have made you one people: but He causeth whom He will to err, and whom He will He guideth: and ye shall assuredly be called to account for your doings." Sura 16:95  )
     
    So, if God can cause people to not believe, then why would he punish them when they didn?t?
     
    "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." Sura 9:5
     
    This is another quote from the scriptures of what is described as a peaceful religion.
     
    "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled." Sura 9:29
    "Yet if they turn to God and observe prayer, and pay the impost, then are they your brethren in religion. We make clear our signs to those who understand."
    "But if, after alliance made, they break their oaths and revile your religion, then do battle with the ring-leaders of infidelity - for no oaths are binding with them - that they may desist." Sura 9:11-12     

    These quotes was used to justify the September 11, 2001 attacks.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #2 - December 06, 2008, 06:56 PM

    PART 3

    ?Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.  - Sura 8:39-40


    These quotes from the Quran are effectively encouraging followers to coerce others into following Islam, even if they do not want to ? either by tax or by force.

    7)    Pillaging
    After fighting, believers have a right to the infidel?s houses.

    ?And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.?  Sura 33:27

    Islam apologists can comb the Quran for ?good? quotes and take it as proof that the Quran is peaceful.  There is a quote in the Quran which says Muslims can have their religion and other people can have theirs.  This is fine until you find in the Quran it says other religions may exist with Muslims, but they are to live as second class citizens by in effect paying taxes to Muslims.

    "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Qur'an:9:29

    It makes me wonder what people would think if I had to pay a separate tax to the Christians for living in the UK?
     
    Cool       Gods words describing heaven?
    But, for the God-fearing is a blissful abode,
    Enclosed gardens and vineyards;
    And damsels with swelling breasts, their peers in age." Sura 78:31-33
    "But the pious shall be in a secure place,
    Amid gardens and fountains,
    Clothed in silk and richest robes, facing one another:
    Thus shall it be: and we will wed them to the virgins with large dark eyes." Sura 44:51-54

    Also why should men be granted ?hoors?, and women don?t?

    It is not just the content that I struggled with, but it was the general tone throughout its entirety.  In youth, many people are judgemental in their thinking.  Generally speaking, it is only as they get older & wiser that their thinking becomes more blurred. 
    The general tone/language here or in point 3 or point 6, or when the Quran refers to Jews & Christians as sons of apes and pigs (Sura 2: verse 65 and 5:60), does little to promote the fact that it was put together by an all knowing being, and could be argued it is more akin to a biased uneducated male?

    9)   A good example of where it begins to sound a little ludicrous and regards the "bartering" of daily salaat from 50 down to 5 by Mohammed ? not sure if it requires much comment from me, but suffice it to say that it surprises me to read that Allah did not get it right in the first place, and it took one of Allah?s creations to point out to Allah what Allah?s creations were/or were not capable of ..
    According to Ibn Ishaq, Mohammed had a Night Journey where in a vision, he was taken by Gabriel to Paradise.  Along the way, he was introduced to various apostles like Adam, Jesus, John, Joseph, Enoch, Moses and Abraham, each in a different one of the seven heavens, before meeting Allah, who gave him the command to do salat 50 times daily. Upon leaving, they met Abraham and come to Moses who asks, "What have you accomplished, O Muhammad?" He answered: "Allah has laid on me and my people 50 prayer services daily." "Return to thy Lord," replied Moses, "and request from him some lessoning for you and for your people, because they will not be able to fulfill that. Long ago I had to ... exercise all my skill... to get the children of Israel to do something less difficult than this, but they were too weak for it and quit, and your people are still weaker."
    So Muhammad went back to Allah, returned to Moses, and back to Allah again. Each time, Allah reduced the number of salats by five, until there remained 5. Even so, Moses said that five is too many. Muhammad replied, "I have already returned to my Lord till I am ashamed. I am satisfied, and I submit."
    10) Apostates i.e. people who have left the religion should be killed, not even debated with?  Sidhu, please don?t take this as me signing my own death warrant, but it is incumbent upon you to kill me if you follow the Quran.

    Again not really worth going into this in detail as my arguments will be fairly obvious, but it's worth watching the first part of this video for more details..  It just does not seem like a religion that I believe is a good code of life to follow, and I believe explains why Muslims are where they are today.
     
    See the beginning of  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gPxX9Gm8n7A&feature=related for more detail

     
    11)    Contradictions
    Sura 41:9-12 teaches that it took God eight days to complete his creation, while Sura 7:51, 10:3 and 11:6 say it took six days.
    Sura 11 says that one of Noah's sons didn?t make it onto the ark and drowned. Sura 21 says that Noah and all his kin were saved from the flood
    Sura 2:29, 79:27-30 Earth was created before heaven, or was heaven created and then earth
    Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say Yes, Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say No.
     
    12)    Scientific untruths
     
    Often in order to prove the religion is the word of God, some scientific facts are brought out to show that the Quran knew things that is could not have possibly known at that time without divine intervention e.g. embryo being similar to ?a piece of chewing gum? and behaving like a leech etc.

    I have read these quotes and if they were read without bias, i.e. in the same way that you would expect from proper research, then there really does not appear to be very much to them.  For example in the case of the embryo behaving in the same way as a leech, this would be inherently obvious during birth with the umbilical cord being attached to the baby when it comes out.  When cut, blood comes out of it, and as they knew the baby had no other food source to grow, then it would be receiving it through the umbilical cord attached to the mother. 

    Regarding chewed gum, what other form could an embryo take, the only other alternative would be for it to have arm, legs and a head, and that could also be regarded as similar to chewed gum!  None of these facts would appear to be like a miracle if they were read with the same integrity as you would expect from a serious piece of research. 

    However not only does it fail to conclusively show that it predicted things beyond its time, it appears to have even got some things wrong? :-

    Human Reproduction
    Sura 23:14. "Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood, then of that clot we made a lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; the We developed out of it another creature."
     - "congealed blood" The cells which begin to form blood, much less clotting agents, do not begin formation until the fourth week of pregnancy. After the joining of the sperm and egg into a morula, there is not blood or clotting agent yet in formation.
     - "clot." This is mentioned as an additional error since the concept of a clot or collection of blood cells is implied twice in this short passage.
     - "bones" The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood (or cell) formation, bones, then flesh. This is untrue. Organs and flesh are actually the first that begin cellular division and formation. Later, as the child grows, bone structures begin to develop along with organs and flesh.
     
    Sura 86:5-7 implies that sperm is produced somewhere between the back and the ribs.
    Muslim Vol. III, Nos. 5113, chapter DCCCLXII: A believer eats in one intestine whereas a non-believer eats in seven intestines. Ibn Umar reported Allah's messenger as saying that a non-Muslim eats in seven intestines while a Muslims eats in one intestine. (See also Nos. 5114-5120)



    I am sure many scholars could find ways to attempt to justify these clauses as I am sure that I could if I felt obligated to try.  But would it be justification for justification?s sake? That would be left for the fair & honest reader to decide. 

    However it remains to be said, that if the book was not a conspiracy created by the need of rulers to find order and peace in an otherwise unruly and uncivilised society of the time, and written with divine knowledge and really was a book of God, then such inconsistencies surely would just not arise?

    I do not doubt that the Quran may have got something?s right e.g. the earth being spherical.  This is pretty much the same with other religions, as they also make claims which their followers say can only be ?divine? knowledge e.g. the Bible says the earth is round too. 

    However I see this coincidence can be explained in the same way that Darwin explained evolution i.e. given that there have been thousands of religions since the dawn of man, only the? strongest? survive  i.e. those that got something?s right, or indeed proliferated by conquering, will survive today.  Also the claims that religions made in error, are often ?swept under the carpet? when claims of ?I do not understand? or ?we cannot question God? or ?it?s a mistranslation? are made.


    As mentioned earlier, as we get older and educate ourselves, we realise things are not so black & white & actually grey areas do exist.  However in the way the Quran is written, in the way of its over simplification of very complex issues, its general aggressive tone, its forthrightness, the way it pigeon holes, are all hallmarks of what some would argue as being written by an uncivilised male human being, and not that of a superior being.

    If this is supposed to be the code of life to follow it is unsurprising to non-believers that Muslims are where they are today.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #3 - December 06, 2008, 06:58 PM

    PART 4

    Philosophical Questions


    Some of these questions we discussed up till 4am when you were here, i.e. the deeper philosophical questions around religion as a whole further compounded my views:

    1)   "You did not kill them; it was Allah who killed them; and you did not throw, when you threw; it was Allah who threw: so He might test the believers with this excellent trial from Him. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing." (Surat Al-Anfal, 17)
    Do we have free-will? If God has given man free-will and a man chose to exercise it by e.g. stabbing and killing someone on their bus ride home.  If God didn't want the man to die but because we have free will, the man died, then how could God be omnipotent? Or if he is omnipotent and he prevented the killing because he wanted to, then do we really have free will? 
    Or what is the point of striving towards anything if our destiny and the eventuality is already ordained from the beginning?  Why not just send us to hell from the beginning, if he already is aware of what our actions will be?  I feel a better lesson for human beings to learn is that you bear the consequences of your actions, not that the outcome is preordained and that you can do little about it.

    2)   What was the point for God in creating the human race?  Why give them the minds to think in a pre-destined environment, and then reward or punish accordingly?  Are we just for a bit of fun i.e. type of game or experiment for him?

    3)   If God/parents  gave you your gene pool along with your environment, and  you are a product of these, then what is the point of punishing you for something out of your control  e.g. if a baby was born to idol worshipping and loving parents in a neighbourhood that discouraged free-thinking, then it would be no surprise that most children brought up in this environment would follow in the footsteps of their parents.  Then why make them burn in hell for doing so?

    4)   Why would God allow some good, honest people to starve and suffer grave misfortune, and other bad people to have perfectly happy and rewarding lives.  Why not still punish/reward us during our lifetimes so we learn from our actions and improve.  This would reward the good people in this life also.  This would make the human race more inclined to believe in God and his powers of justice, make them better Muslims, and be a means of encouraging a better society. 

    If he wanted really wanted us to believe in him then there would be no reason for him to be invisible, so we would know for fact that he exists.  There is not much point in killing  people who are sceptical by nature, as they are not all inherently bad people, and do not deserve to be murdered just because they do not believe in something they have not seen?  By the same token, why reward those that are more easily convinced by something they cannot see - it is not a meritable act worthy of reward?

    5)   How can a finite sin be punished with infinite suffering?  How could an all loving god, who is kinder and more compassionate than us, send anyone to burn in hell for eternity.  I certainly would not wish that on anyone, including my worst enemy. 

    6)   Even if we were to follow these rules, don?t the wrong people naturally have a greater tendency to go to heaven.  Would those that were more selfish naturally allocate more of their time to devotion in order to reap their personal rewards in heaven.  And those that were more carefree choose to spend a lesser proportion of their lives to being subservient, as they spend less time thinking of the consequences, and hence have a greater chance of going to hell?  Should it not be the other way around?

    7)   What really is so wrong with eating pork and alcohol. The west eats pork and suffers no more long term damage from it, than it does with beef or other meats.  In fact the BMA are yet to issue guidelines against the eating of pork, as  they did with beef after BSE.  Provided  alcohol is consumed sensibly then it can be enjoyed as it is by the majority of non-Muslims in the world today, and certainly no more dangerous than uncontrolled usage of any other dangerous substances by a minority e.g. drugs, guns etc.  In fact, scientific research has demonstrated an association between moderate alcohol consumption and a lower risk of cardiovascular disease.

    Cool   Can there really be a spirit inside us that will rise when we are dead.  Scientifically there appears to be nothing to show that we have one.  Also why doesn?t God just eliminate the devil, as it is the devil that is partly the cause of our problems, particularly in the case of weaker minded individuals, through no fault of their own.

    9)   If any god is believed to be omnipotent and we are asked to have faith in his/her/their existence, then i propose that any adult of average intelligence could come up with a 'sacred' text which would be as convincing as any that exists at the moment and which could be sufficiently encompassing and robust to avoid being disproved - as long as a particular ?bunch of idiots? could be found to have faith in it.  Then 10 generations down the line we would have another religion, whose people no longer would be classified as ?a bunch of idiots? but as followers who need to have their religion respected.
    Let?s take again the hypothesis that the universe was created by a fairy who now lives at the bottom of my garden - nobody could disprove this and i am sure that we could happily construct a little book about the exploits of this fairy, (and by the way do not mock this fairy because if you don?t believe that it created the universe then I am sorry, but you also will be burned in hell). 
    The point is this, serious debate about religion should not start with any religious text, Christian, Muslim or any other flavour, it should start with logic and intelligence.

    10)   Let?s take the hypothesis that there was no religion on the planet. Firstly there would be less reason between people to argue and fight over.  Secondly religion would again breed, probably quicker in the developing world than elsewhere, given the human need for an infallible crutch to believe in.  To some it gives hope, and to others it ?fills in the gaps?.  This can be proven by the fact that many forms of sun worshipping used to exist, and now a multitude of different religions exist, despite the fact that there can only really be one true religion. 
    Religion will never disappear, as religion is never debated seriously enough by most believers as they will often prefer to rely on faith rather than factual discussion. Faith can be described by some as 'triumph of hope over reason'.  Religion may be nothing more than that.

    I would desperately like to believe in an afterlife so I could see people who I loved and have passed away - but unhappily, wanting it to be true does not make it true.  This is all highlighted by other cults that became so popular, even in recent times in the developed world when David Koresh from the United States, whilst claiming he was a prophet, and caused the death of over 70 followers who fought to the end against the FBI.  They were just a group of disenfranchised individuals before they met him.

    11)   Let?s make the assumption that all human beings around the world are equal at birth, some born in a Christian family, some Hindu, some Buddhist etc.  If you were to analyse these groups of people across the globe and segmented them by religion, you will find certain characteristic traits emerge.   These traits, positive or negative, can only be down to the cultures that have resulted as a direct consequence of the religions themselves.
    This is an important point as followers often blame Muslims for not following the religion correctly, thus insinuating that Muslims are less capable as a people of following a code of life than other human beings and therefore not equal?  This cannot be the case if we are all equal to begin with and hence can only be the religions, and their resultant cultures, that have created these differences in the first place.

    12)   Other arguments I have heard are that is impossible to prove that there is a no God; in the same way that it is impossible to prove that there is a God.  This is only because it is impossible prove that something, that shows no tangible sign of existence (i.e. cannot be seen, touched or heard) and defies all scientific logic, can actually proven to exist by scientific means. In the same way as it is impossible to disprove that the fairy at the bottom of my garden created us, and will banish to hell those who do not believe in it.   

    13)   Also if ghosts/invisible beings/magic are real and acceptable notions, then why in the real world are they derided and seen as a sign of lunacy when taken out of context of religion?

    14)   In the last 6,000 years since man has existed, science has largely played little part in finding out the answers.  Only in the last 100 years has science made its exponential rise. Replacing a human heart with a pigs heart, travelling to outer space, manufacturing of artificial limbs are all recent successes, what will the next 1000 years bring?  We will certainly further our understanding and continue to answer the remaining unanswered questions.  It would not surprise me how far this may eventually go ? artificial creation of human beings?   

    15)   There are a number of different religions that rely on historic events from a different era as proof of their word; this does not mean they are true. 

    It is however possible to categorically disprove several myths that are quoted by Muslims particularly in terms of the age and origin of the Earth and universe - though this is far too complicated to go into here.

    Nevertheless in respect to proving/disproving, the burden of proof is on the believer to prove - not the agnostic/atheist to disprove, as this being has never been seen or heard by anyone, nor has science ever demonstrated its presence.   In particular, if a lifetime is going to be devoted to believing and sacrificing for it.

    Most religions with the possible exception of Buddhism say that their god wants to receive devotion. Praying, going to places to worship them (be they temples, synagogues, Gurdwara?s, mosques or churches), loving no other god etc etc. If a being is omnipotent and an important thing to them is to receive unquestioning devotion, then surely there are better ways to go about it!  Would he not prefer us to spend that time by helping those that are blind, old, handicapped etc than on a prayer mat? 

    Surely such a god would be more concerned about how we live our lives and treasure the little time we have been given. At the end of the day, as a parent I do not expect, nor do I want, my kids to spend the rest of their lives thanking me for the sacrifices I have made for them, nor do I expect a greater being which is infinitely kinder than myself to do so.  Existentialism and Humanism are worth looking at, but generally speaking if you have spare emotional and intellectual energy then I think its best devoted to our children, not to any possible fairy tale.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #4 - December 06, 2008, 06:59 PM

    PART 5

    I have heard ?Just read the Quran, it?s a beautiful book that will provide you with all the answers? many times ? I did so, but this was not the case with me.  I found it just provoked more questions and doubt.  Here are some statistics I found regarding the content of the Quran, and although i appreciate it?s not an exact science, I can corroborate as being broadly similar to what I found when I read it..
     
     (52%) - over half of these verses is vitriol aimed at infidels.
    (17%) - deal with Allah
    (15%) - deal with believers/non-believers
    (12%) - deal with Day of Judgment or Day of Doom
    (4%) ... is a good verse. (Do not steal from the poor / Give to the poor etc)

    It appears to me that the book just wants to railroad its message through to people who need a code of life to follow. 

    I wonder how many Muslims would convert to Islam based on its merits, had we not been born into the religion and brainwashed by our parents/culture by another religion. 

    My personal belief is that I should try my best to lead a good life, and not to treat others in a way that I would not expect to be treated myself.  Then the rewards will not only be available to me by whatever, if anything, is out there, but during my life also.  I have found it leads to a richer existence as the rules you follow are those that you think are right, and not prescribed by volumes written in the 7th century.  And I will leave the religion to all those people who wish to follow it.

    A true religion would be faultless and immediately inspiring, as it would be put together by our all knowing, all seeing, creator  - this one has missed the mark by a long way for me.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #5 - December 06, 2008, 07:01 PM

    Could you summarise your posts into two or three sentences?

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #6 - December 06, 2008, 07:17 PM

    Could you summarise your posts into two or three sentences?


    Err:

    Quote
    He wanted me to "improve" it if i could , and i am posting it here to see if we can constructively critique the essay.


    No one wants you to "critique" two or three sentences, it's meant to be an essay, not an msn conversation.  Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #7 - December 06, 2008, 07:32 PM

    Quote

    No one wants you to "critique" two or three sentences, it's meant to be an essay, not an msn conversation.  Wink


    Silly me for not reading it before posting. Saw blocks of texts and assumed it was copy and paste of texts from the Qur?an (like some people do).

    Enjoy reading the essay.


    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #8 - December 06, 2008, 08:41 PM

    Quote

    No one wants you to "critique" two or three sentences, it's meant to be an essay, not an msn conversation.  Wink


    Silly me for not reading it before posting. Saw blocks of texts and assumed it was copy and paste of texts from the Qur?an (like some people do).

    Enjoy reading the essay.



    Maybe you could knock up a quick Marcel Marceau type animation for us lasting not more than 30 secs.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #9 - December 06, 2008, 10:30 PM

    I've just read the first section and so far so good. Afro  I'm sure if he read it again he could tidy it up a little to improve the clarity but other than that he has put a very sound and reasoned argument so far.

    Only one point I would question:

    Many Muslim scholars that have read more than I could ever hope to, have since denounced the religion.  It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues. 


    I certainly agree that:  It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues.

    But I don't know of many Muslim Scholars who have denounced the religion?
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #10 - December 06, 2008, 10:36 PM

    PART 2...


    Part two is good also, but it is important when one starts by saying 'here are quotes from the Qur'an' to make sure they are all indeed from the Qur'an.

    There is no problem about quoting hadiths or later scholars (like Ibn Hazm), but they should be clearly distinguished (perhaps separate sections for 1.Qur'an 2.Hadith 3.Companions/Scholars.)
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #11 - December 06, 2008, 10:43 PM

    Part 3 is very good also - just one point:

    it is incumbent upon you to kill me if you follow the Quran.


    Now I know there are some here who will insist that the justification for killing apostates is in the Qur'an - but it is too vague to be clear-cut and all the modern liberal Muslims will dispute it - and you simply can't win on this point with Qur'an alone.

    The clear-cut justification for executing apostates comes from Hadith - not Qur'an.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #12 - December 06, 2008, 10:47 PM

    I skimmed part 4 and 5 but they look fine too.

    I think it's an excellent piece and reflects many of my thoughts too  Afro

  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #13 - December 07, 2008, 01:57 AM

    I have only started reading it and it looks good. I am going to finish up.

    I am thinking of making a little booklet with articles like those (of course crediting the author) and was wondering if your friend would be interested in helping me. I'm just sick of getting the booklets through my letterbox on why Islam is the true religion of god (with very weak and generalised arguments), and want to give them an argument.

    I was also wondering if I would be able to link to the forums or would that be a bad idea?
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #14 - December 07, 2008, 05:51 AM

    I've just read the first section and so far so good. Afro  I'm sure if he read it again he could tidy it up a little to improve the clarity but other than that he has put a very sound and reasoned argument so far.

    Only one point I would question:

    Many Muslim scholars that have read more than I could ever hope to, have since denounced the religion.  It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues. 


    I certainly agree that:  It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues.

    But I don't know of many Muslim Scholars who have denounced the religion?



    Very true Hassan . Although I have heard rumours about "scholars" who have left islam ,the problem with statements like this is that someone will call you on it and ask you to name names..... even if you could, many muslims would say "he's not a scholar" to whichever name you came up with!


    "It does not necessarily follow that the more you read about Islam, then the more you will be convinced by its virtues"- I was having a conversation about this with my friend tonight and an interesting point was raised- many muslims rest on their laurels and when they hear about someone who rejects islam , they say "he needs to read more about Islam and he will see it is the truth".
    However most of these muslims never bother to read more themselves and rely on the fact that somebody else ie scholars, have done the research for them on their behalf. And hey , if these learned people are convinced by Islam why should we doubt it ...? Smiley




    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #15 - December 07, 2008, 05:58 AM

    PART 2...


    Part two is good also, but it is important when one starts by saying 'here are quotes from the Qur'an' to make sure they are all indeed from the Qur'an.

    There is no problem about quoting hadiths or later scholars (like Ibn Hazm), but they should be clearly distinguished (perhaps separate sections for 1.Qur'an 2.Hadith 3.Companions/Scholars.)


    Good point. Sources should be clearly identified , not least because muslims always like to jump on any minor detail that is inaccurate as proof that your entire argument must be flawed   Roll Eyes

    I personally defy any muslim to read the hadith or sira and not have, at least, twinges of doubt and discomfort about what is written in some of their pages.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #16 - December 07, 2008, 06:09 AM

    I have only started reading it and it looks good. I am going to finish up.

    I am thinking of making a little booklet with articles like those (of course crediting the author) and was wondering if your friend would be interested in helping me. I'm just sick of getting the booklets through my letterbox on why Islam is the true religion of god (with very weak and generalised arguments), and want to give them an argument.

    I was also wondering if I would be able to link to the forums or would that be a bad idea?


    I'm sure he would , in fact I am compiling my own piece too, as alot of what has been written is what he personally finds most convincing.
    I always found it interesting that when I spoke to various apostates that we all find different things compelling about why the quran isn't the word of god.

    For example, there is one guy I know who just can't get his head around why the qu'ran is  114 chapters , and THAT for  him is the most mind boggling aspect. That, almost by itself, was the reason for his apostasy, whereas for me it just doesn't even register as an argument I would use. 

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #17 - December 07, 2008, 06:13 AM

    BTW I have shown my friend this forum , and I'm sure he will be signing up as a member here soon anyway. dance

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #18 - December 07, 2008, 06:49 AM

    Excellent article you got there Humanoid! One thing that PISSES me off about muslims is that everytime you point out a contradiction, they ALWAYS try to find some way around it and make some half ass attempt to say that its not a contradiction. It's really frustrating, but what I don't understand is the level of denial they can be in.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #19 - December 07, 2008, 08:43 AM

    they say "he needs to read more about Islam and he will see it is the truth".
    However most of these muslims never bother to read more themselves


    That is so true and I've been told that quite a few times by well meaning friends who have tried to talk me out of rejecting Islam.

    "You need to read more about Islam, Hassan!"

    After 30 years of study, teaching and living Islam, I wonder how much more I need to read to know if Islam is true or not.

    New converts to Islam - on the other hand - only need to read a sugar-coated leaflet or two - to know that Islam is true.

    I guess how much you need to read depends on what answer you come to Wink
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #20 - December 07, 2008, 08:46 AM


    I personally defy any muslim to read the hadith or sira and not have, at least, twinges of doubt and discomfort about what is written in some of their pages.


    Indeed - and that is why the reaction of the Muslim on the street these days is to reject hadith when defending Islam against logic and reason.

  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #21 - December 07, 2008, 12:27 PM



    After 30 years of study, teaching and living Islam, I wonder how much more I need to read to know if Islam is true or not.

    New converts to Islam - on the other hand - only need to read a sugar-coated leaflet or two - to know that Islam is true.
    I guess how much you need to read depends on what answer you come to Wink


    lol yes it always made me chuckle that people would never insist that new converts should read the entire qu'ran , hadith and sira or study with a scholar before entering Islam,( the attitude was -quick boys he's signed up - hide the books till after  he's said the shahada!) whereas I was told to do all those things when i indicated I would apostate.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #22 - December 07, 2008, 03:33 PM

    Could you summarise your posts into two or three sentences?


    Err:

    Quote
    He wanted me to "improve" it if i could , and i am posting it here to see if we can constructively critique the essay.


    No one wants you to "critique" two or three sentences, it's meant to be an essay, not an msn conversation.  Wink

     Cheesy Cheesy
    I sympatise A_G. I'm a pictures person too. As they say, 'a picture tells a thousand words'.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #23 - December 07, 2008, 07:13 PM

    I have just registered on the website after my friend Humanoid told me he had put my article on here. 

    It was written in response to a long discussion I had with my cousin till 4am in the morning. 

    He wanted me to put all my points down, so he could take them to a more learned scholar who would know the answers.  Sadly he has not replied yet after 3 months. 

    Thanks for all your comments anyway, believe they were all justified and helpful!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #24 - December 07, 2008, 07:19 PM

    Welcome. Would you care to start an intro thread to tell us more about yourself? I'm interested in your personal story.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #25 - December 07, 2008, 08:19 PM

    For the purposed of this forum, I would probably best be described as an agnostic.  I was born in the UK, to parents born and raised in India and am married with 2 children. My mother is a devout & practising Muslim, and my father was also a believer.   

    After countless discussions with my wife (she also came from a similar background to me, but was an apologist prior to our marriage), we are raising them in a secular fashion and will allow them to make their own minds up.

    In my childhood I prayed 5 times a day primarily to appease my parents and because I believed  it was the right thing to do.  But when I reached my teenage years I began to get frustrated by the unjust views and thinking of my Muslim peers & elders.  I noticed a lot of this had derived from the religion at a deeper level so I began to look at it more closely.  The more I looked at the ideology and thinking behind it , the more estranged I felt from it.  Once I left home to embark on my studies, I had a little more room to become the person I wanted to be and found a great deal of liberation from it. 

    Since then my views have probably become compounded by events at home and around the globe, and am comfroted that at least with some of the younger & more educated Muslims (for want of a better word, but I mean educated mindset, not the number of letters after their name) that my views are now becoming a little more digestible.

    Hope this helps, how about you Awais?  Did you read the article, what did you think?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #26 - December 07, 2008, 08:44 PM

    For the purposed of this forum, I would probably best be described as an agnostic.  I was born in the UK, to parents born and raised in India and am married with 2 children. My mother is a devout & practising Muslim, and my father was also a believer.   

    After countless discussions with my wife (she also came from a similar background to me, but was an apologist prior to our marriage), we are raising them in a secular fashion and will allow them to make their own minds up.

    In my childhood I prayed 5 times a day primarily to appease my parents and because I believed  it was the right thing to do.  But when I reached my teenage years I began to get frustrated by the unjust views and thinking of my Muslim peers & elders.  I noticed a lot of this had derived from the religion at a deeper level so I began to look at it more closely.  The more I looked at the ideology and thinking behind it , the more estranged I felt from it.  Once I left home to embark on my studies, I had a little more room to become the person I wanted to be and found a great deal of liberation from it. 

    Since then my views have probably become compounded by events at home and around the globe, and am comfroted that at least with some of the younger & more educated Muslims (for want of a better word, but I mean educated mindset, not the number of letters after their name) that my views are now becoming a little more digestible.

    Hope this helps, how about you Awais?  Did you read the article, what did you think?



    Hi IsLame and welcome Smiley

    I enjoyed reading your article very much and would love to see it again if you make changes/updates in future.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #27 - December 07, 2008, 08:57 PM

    Welcome to the forum, IsLame.  Look forward to hearing more from you.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #28 - December 07, 2008, 09:02 PM

    Welcome IsLame  grin12

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: An article my friend wrote...
     Reply #29 - December 07, 2008, 09:04 PM

    they say "he needs to read more about Islam and he will see it is the truth".
    However most of these muslims never bother to read more themselves


    That is so true and I've been told that quite a few times by well meaning friends who have tried to talk me out of rejecting Islam.

    "You need to read more about Islam, Hassan!"

    After 30 years of study, teaching and living Islam, I wonder how much more I need to read to know if Islam is true or not.

    New converts to Islam - on the other hand - only need to read a sugar-coated leaflet or two - to know that Islam is true.

    I guess how much you need to read depends on what answer you come to Wink


    Hey Hassan just one question. How many books on Islam have you read, did you read all the hadith and bio's of muhammad? Just wondering Smiley

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
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