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 Topic: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?

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  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #30 - December 10, 2008, 07:00 PM


    Dr. Mushtari is very much a Muslim, a professor at one of the most highly recorgnised Islamic Universities in the world. I just used a quote from him to precede the chapter I wrote on Slavery in Islam. He is a scholar of Islam.

    Actually one point I'd like to see with that quote is when it was made - i.e. was the statement made in 1066 or 2005 etc. - which might give some context  to it.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #31 - December 10, 2008, 07:33 PM


    Dr. Mushtari is very much a Muslim, a professor at one of the most highly recorgnised Islamic Universities in the world. I just used a quote from him to precede the chapter I wrote on Slavery in Islam. He is a scholar of Islam.

    Actually one point I'd like to see with that quote is when it was made - i.e. was the statement made in 1066 or 2005 etc. - which might give some context  to it.


    That quote is taken from a book 'You Ask Islam Answers' by Dr. Mushtahari. Its a relatively recent book but i cannot find an actual date.

    The Wiki page on Salvery on Islam mention this quote in the section 'Slavery in the contemporary Muslim world' So its very recent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #32 - December 10, 2008, 10:09 PM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #33 - December 11, 2008, 03:41 AM

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture.


    Sahih hadiths are not junk. They have been considered 'Authentic' by all the great Islamic scholars of the past.

    Most of Sharia law is based on the Hadiths.

    Much of the Qur'an cannot be understood without reference to the Hadiths.

    The thing is, it is conveniently rejected when the need arises and conversely referenced when the Qur'an needs support to explain many of the vilolent , intolerant or absurd ayat.

    Quote
    There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery.

     

    Can you give an example.

    Quote
    Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.


    Au contraire mon ami. Without the Hadiths the Qur'an and Islam would not have much of a leg to stand on.

    Quote
    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.


    Actually Islam perpetuated slavery of the non-believers. And only allowed manumission for those who converted to Islam.

    The idea was to increase the ummah by freeing believing slaves and going out and conquering other nations and replacing those slaves.

    I will give more details later. I'm at work at the moment

    The freeing of slaves existed long before Islam. The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans freed slave for for good and long service, not because of religious affiliation like Islam.




    Another hadith freak in the block,

    So are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #34 - December 11, 2008, 03:45 AM

    Quote
    So are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?


     Huh?

    The Qu'ran regulates slavery.  Is what he is saying.  Are you picking details here?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #35 - December 11, 2008, 03:45 AM

    The following is the chapter on slavery from the project I'm working on. It shows that Islam legislates for, encouraged and perpetuated slavery.

    Slavery ? The Right Hand Possession


    "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other - it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner."
    Dr. 'Abdul-Latif Mushtahari
    (Director of Homiletics and Guidance
    Al-Azhar University, Cairo)


    Slavery had existed in pre-Islamic times and is well supported in the Bible's Old and New Testaments. Muhammad's continuation of this Abrahamic tradition, where everyone outside their fold was considered an infidel or heathen, ripe for subjugation on account of their non acceptance of an exclusive one true God, allowed the perpetuation of slavery wherever these scriptures impacted society. Muhammad captured, traded, owned, distributed, freed and slept with slaves.

    Muhammad, supposedly the best of creation according to his followers, set an example that was followed religiously for thirteen hundred years until international pressures brought an end to mass slavery in Islamic nations in the early twentieth century. However slavery still does continue in many Islamic societies under various guises by those who consider it still justifiable under Allah's unchanging final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an and Hadiths unequivocally justify slavery, stipulates the uses of slaves, their rights and even the status of their descendants. Many times in the scriptures, slaves are referred to as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands possess"). In Islam a slave is therefore viewed as an object to be owned, traded and treated according to the whims of their owner.

    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

    Q.2:178 - O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. This verse implies that a free man, slave and female are different categories of humans otherwise why differentiate? A point to note is that 'the free' refers to a man. Hence technically speaking a woman, in Muhammad's eyes, is not free but is some form of possession, belonging to a man hence categorised differently from 'the free'. The crucial aspect of this verse is the requirement for killing like for like as retaliation. Hence should a free man kill a slave it is not the free man that will be killed as the punishment, it will be one of the free man's slave; the slave just being merchandise used as compensation for a man's crime.

    An example of slaves being used for compensation for their master's crime can be fond in the hadith, SB 83:41 - Two women fought with each other and one threw a stone causing the other to miscarriage. Allah's Apostle commanded that the killer (of the fetus) should give a male or female slave as blood money.



    You are quoting a personal opinion of some Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, who prefers to word his statement as "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons." and you are quoting ridiculous ahaadith. Is this Dr. Mushtahari also an ex-muslim?  Cheesy

    You wrote:
    Quote
    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

     and then quote me 2:178 for your blunderous assumption.
    The verse in not talking about differential treatment of people. 

    Listen. Q 2:178 is talking about death punishment. If a free man was murdered by another freeman, that man had to get death punishment. If a slave killed another slave, that killer slave was also to receive death punishment. If a woman killed a woman, the woman had to receive death punishment.

    Quote

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ ﴿١٧٨﴾ 
     
    178:O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. 
     
    وَلَكُمْ فِي الْقِصَاصِ حَيَاةٌ يَاْ أُولِيْ الأَلْبَابِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ﴿١٧٩﴾ 
     
    179:In the Law of Equality, there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.

     

    In simple words, whoever kills anyone, shall receive death punishment, whether one was a free man, a slave or a woman. It does not mean that if a woman killed a man or a man killed a woman, he/she goes scot-free.  Cheesy

    Now, what are the Arabic words for Slave and Slavery? If you can write in Arabic and transliterate, I will appreciate. If you don't know Arabic, you can ask Arabic-speaking ex-Muslim friends here.

    Please tell Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari to go, learn and read Qur'aan. Also tell him not to spread misinformation. Will wait for your answer. Till then, I will not be posting comments on your other posts.

    Cheers
    BMZ






    Hey bro

    I guess such hadith freak named ghazali is too ignorant to reply to, the freak does not know that slaves in Arabic can not be Ma Malakat Aymanikum, he sounds like freak HM, so I guess a life dismissal is most suited

    Cheers
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #36 - December 11, 2008, 03:47 AM

    Quote
    So are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?


     Huh?

    The Qu'ran regulates slavery.  Is what he is saying.  Are you picking details here?


    My question is clear, here it is again:

    are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?

    I am not asking if the Quran regulated slavery or not, please use any tiny bit of your brain

  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #37 - December 11, 2008, 03:50 AM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?



    Hey Baal

    How are you mate?

    You sound like you still as ignorant as I left you last time, LOL

    The verse means that he who has own a slave already

    Also the above verse only applies for killing by mistake, for exmaple a car accident

    Use your brain, mister Baal
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #38 - December 11, 2008, 03:51 AM

    Quote
    I guess such hadith freak named ghazal


    Hadith freak?  What does that mean?

    Quote
    are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?


    No.  I am saying that what the Qur'an said about slaves was just plain wrong.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #39 - December 11, 2008, 04:03 AM

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture.


    Sahih hadiths are not junk. They have been considered 'Authentic' by all the great Islamic scholars of the past.

    Most of Sharia law is based on the Hadiths.

    Much of the Qur'an cannot be understood without reference to the Hadiths.

    The thing is, it is conveniently rejected when the need arises and conversely referenced when the Qur'an needs support to explain many of the vilolent , intolerant or absurd ayat.

    Quote
    There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery.

     

    Can you give an example.

    Quote
    Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.


    Au contraire mon ami. Without the Hadiths the Qur'an and Islam would not have much of a leg to stand on.

    Quote
    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.


    Actually Islam perpetuated slavery of the non-believers. And only allowed manumission for those who converted to Islam.

    The idea was to increase the ummah by freeing believing slaves and going out and conquering other nations and replacing those slaves.

    I will give more details later. I'm at work at the moment

    The freeing of slaves existed long before Islam. The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans freed slave for for good and long service, not because of religious affiliation like Islam.




    Another hadith freak in the block,

    So are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?


    Greetings & Welcome, Ahmed

    Glad to see you. Well-said and I think hadith was the reason of his exit.

    Salaams
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #40 - December 11, 2008, 04:11 AM

    Quote
    I guess such hadith freak named ghazal


    Hadith freak?  What does that mean?

    Quote
    are you saying that the Quran did not order to free non believing slaves?


    No.  I am saying that what the Qur'an said about slaves was just plain wrong.





    A hadith freak means a confused and misguided soul

    How come the commands of freeing the slaves and marrying from them can be wrong?

    are you that confused?
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #41 - December 11, 2008, 04:12 AM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?



    This is hilarious, Baal. You did not even have to embolden it. What word in the Arabic shows 'but cannot find'?

    You are a native speaker of Arabic. Right?

    فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ

    Does it only mean "but he who cannot find"? It means "but he who does not have".

    Meaning, one who has no slaves, one then has to go for the longer period of fasting.
    I believe you have taken it from only one translation in English.

    Check it out, mate.

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #42 - December 11, 2008, 04:23 AM

    The following is the chapter on slavery from the project I'm working on. It shows that Islam legislates for, encouraged and perpetuated slavery.

    Slavery ? The Right Hand Possession


    "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other - it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner."
    Dr. 'Abdul-Latif Mushtahari
    (Director of Homiletics and Guidance
    Al-Azhar University, Cairo)


    Slavery had existed in pre-Islamic times and is well supported in the Bible's Old and New Testaments. Muhammad's continuation of this Abrahamic tradition, where everyone outside their fold was considered an infidel or heathen, ripe for subjugation on account of their non acceptance of an exclusive one true God, allowed the perpetuation of slavery wherever these scriptures impacted society. Muhammad captured, traded, owned, distributed, freed and slept with slaves.

    Muhammad, supposedly the best of creation according to his followers, set an example that was followed religiously for thirteen hundred years until international pressures brought an end to mass slavery in Islamic nations in the early twentieth century. However slavery still does continue in many Islamic societies under various guises by those who consider it still justifiable under Allah's unchanging final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an and Hadiths unequivocally justify slavery, stipulates the uses of slaves, their rights and even the status of their descendants. Many times in the scriptures, slaves are referred to as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands possess"). In Islam a slave is therefore viewed as an object to be owned, traded and treated according to the whims of their owner.

    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

    Q.2:178 - O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. This verse implies that a free man, slave and female are different categories of humans otherwise why differentiate? A point to note is that 'the free' refers to a man. Hence technically speaking a woman, in Muhammad's eyes, is not free but is some form of possession, belonging to a man hence categorised differently from 'the free'. The crucial aspect of this verse is the requirement for killing like for like as retaliation. Hence should a free man kill a slave it is not the free man that will be killed as the punishment, it will be one of the free man's slave; the slave just being merchandise used as compensation for a man's crime.

    An example of slaves being used for compensation for their master's crime can be fond in the hadith, SB 83:41 - Two women fought with each other and one threw a stone causing the other to miscarriage. Allah's Apostle commanded that the killer (of the fetus) should give a male or female slave as blood money.



    You are quoting a personal opinion of some Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, who prefers to word his statement as "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons." and you are quoting ridiculous ahaadith. Is this Dr. Mushtahari also an ex-muslim?  Cheesy

    You wrote:
    Quote
    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

     and then quote me 2:178 for your blunderous assumption.
    The verse in not talking about differential treatment of people. 

    Listen. Q 2:178 is talking about death punishment. If a free man was murdered by another freeman, that man had to get death punishment. If a slave killed another slave, that killer slave was also to receive death punishment. If a woman killed a woman, the woman had to receive death punishment.

    Quote

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ ﴿١٧٨﴾ 
     
    178:O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. 
     
    وَلَكُمْ فِي الْقِصَاصِ حَيَاةٌ يَاْ أُولِيْ الأَلْبَابِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ﴿١٧٩﴾ 
     
    179:In the Law of Equality, there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.

     

    In simple words, whoever kills anyone, shall receive death punishment, whether one was a free man, a slave or a woman. It does not mean that if a woman killed a man or a man killed a woman, he/she goes scot-free.  Cheesy

    Now, what are the Arabic words for Slave and Slavery? If you can write in Arabic and transliterate, I will appreciate. If you don't know Arabic, you can ask Arabic-speaking ex-Muslim friends here.

    Please tell Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari to go, learn and read Qur'aan. Also tell him not to spread misinformation. Will wait for your answer. Till then, I will not be posting comments on your other posts.

    Cheers
    BMZ






    Hey bro

    I guess such hadith freak named ghazali is too ignorant to reply to, the freak does not know that slaves in Arabic can not be Ma Malakat Aymanikum, he sounds like freak HM, so I guess a life dismissal is most suited

    Cheers


    Yes, bro

    Looks like, we will be quoted the usual Ma Malakat Aymanakum, Ma Malakat Aymanehim, the entire Ma Malakat series. lol!

    I have already asked Ghazali to show me the words for Slave and Slavery in Arabic, the words which cannot be found in Qur'aan but can be found rampant in other Scriptures.

    I don't think Ghazali will come back on that. Will be out for a meeting.

    Salaams, mate
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #43 - December 11, 2008, 04:26 AM

    Quote
    A hadith freak means a confused and misguided soul


    So do you mean that muslims who believe in the hadith are confused and misguided souls?

    Quote
    How come the commands of freeing the slaves and marrying from them can be wrong?



    No, that is a non-sequitur.  The parts of the Qur'an which regulate slavery are wrong, because.......well it should be self explanatory.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #44 - December 11, 2008, 04:46 AM

    Quote
    A hadith freak means a confused and misguided soul


    So do you mean that muslims who believe in the hadith are confused and misguided souls?


    Of course

    Quote
    How come the commands of freeing the slaves and marrying from them can be wrong?



    Quote
    No, that is a non-sequitur.  The parts of the Qur'an which regulate slavery are wrong, because.......well it should be self explanatory.





    Obvioulsy yu have nothing to say, how about I dismiss ya?
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #45 - December 11, 2008, 04:57 AM

    Quote
    Obvioulsy yu have nothing to say, how about I dismiss ya?


    No, obviously I have plenty to say.  So how about you be polite for once, and stop threatening to dismiss people who are only asking you civil questions?

    This is not FFI.  Do not behave like it is. 

    Now, explain, please, how are the believers in the Sahih hadeeths "confused and misguided souls"?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #46 - December 11, 2008, 08:25 AM

    The parts of the Qur'an which regulate slavery are wrong, because.......well it should be self explanatory.



    Hello, Cheetah

    I have a problem with the word regulate, which you are using. One regulates to control, direct, or govern according to a rule, a principle, or a system but that system was not ordained by God. Slavery was never ordained.

    Thus, you cannot use the word regulate. Islam improved the condition of the slaves, leading it finally to manumitting and eradication in general.

    One will not see any slavery of the brutal standard as was practised in the modern times in some Western countries.

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #47 - December 11, 2008, 10:07 AM

    The parts of the Qur'an which regulate slavery are wrong, because.......well it should be self explanatory.



    Hello, Cheetah

    I have a problem with the word regulate, which you are using. One regulates to control, direct, or govern according to a rule, a principle, or a system but that system was not ordained by God. Slavery was never ordained.

    Thus, you cannot use the word regulate. Islam improved the condition of the slaves, leading it finally to manumitting and eradication in general.

    One will not see any slavery of the brutal standard as was practised in the modern times in some Western countries.

    Cheers
    BMZ


    Mohammed was supposedly Allah's representative and Mohammed was right into practicing slavery. Mohammed is supposedly the perfect example for all men to follow. That makes it sound pretty much like slavery being ordained by Allah, unless you think your prophet was misguided and/or corrupt.

    Also how can you claim that Islam improved the condition of slaves when I've given you references to the treatment of slaves in Judaism and those standards are more humane than the Islamic standards? Finally this:

    Quote
    One will not see any slavery of the brutal standard as was practised in the modern times in some Western countries.

    Really? So are you saying that if people search the historical records on the treatment of slaves under Islam they will find nothing brutal or inhumane?  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #48 - December 11, 2008, 01:37 PM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?



    Hey Baal

    How are you mate?

    You sound like you still as ignorant as I left you last time, LOL

    The verse means that he who has own a slave already

    Also the above verse only applies for killing by mistake, for exmaple a car accident

    Use your brain, mister Baal

    Hey Ahmed, done translating some more chapters yet? It is tough. It will take forever because of all the errors and ambiguities that you have to keep dodging. Had the text been properly written you would have been done several times over by now. Good Luck. If you have more text posted up for review plz let me know. I am still curious how you got over the problems I highlighted with Surat 2 last time.

    As for verse 4:92. It only means what you claimed, if it was your mom and dad that were reading it. But the reality is, the murderous believer is expected to *find* a believing slave. The text did *not* state for you to give up one of your slaves. So I am very sorry but your assumption that a slave has to be previously owned is out the window.

    Second. The killing does not have to be accidental. The killing only has to be in error. So if you kill a believer in error, then you are in the wrong. There is many other words in Arabic that the writer of the Uthmanic koran could have used to indicate 'by accident', but the writer chose to keep it open to include any wrongful killing (which includes murder).


    Now I understand that verse 4:92 puts a very big hole in the comforting truth that you and millions like you tend to fall back on. That, islam is there to "get rid of an existing slavery". This comforting truth is comfortable and sweet. And it is very nice of you to think like that. But unfortunately, the actual text contradicts for your comfortable reality.

    The actual text orders you to go find a believing slave.
    The actual text did not mention existing slaves.
    How do we find slaves Ahmad? We capture. We buy. We beg for one in exchange of favors.

    Either way, this verse will create a need for a slave trader and a slave market. So I am very sorry that your comfortable and inherently good truth about koran and slavery is not supported by the Uthmanic koran.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #49 - December 11, 2008, 01:57 PM

    Quote from: BMZ
    Hello, Cheetah

    I have a problem with the word regulate, which you are using. One regulates to control, direct, or govern according to a rule, a principle, or a system but that system was not ordained by God. Slavery was never ordained.


    Hello BMZ,

    If the Qur'an lays out rules regarding the treatment of slaves then I'm afraid "regulate" is the correct term.  And if you believe the Qur'an comes from God then I suppose you have to believe that God ordained slavery.  Thankfully I don't. Wink

    Quote
    Thus, you cannot use the word regulate. Islam improved the condition of the slaves, leading it finally to manumitting and eradication in general.


    If Islam improved the condition of slaves, it could only have done so by laying down laws about their treatment.  Ie, regulating it. 

    And I'm glad you said "finally" - yes, very finally wasn't it?  The wicked west, denied the benefits of God's law from the Qur'an, got rid of slavery in the 19th century.  The pure and Islamic Saudi Arabia "finally" banned it at the request of John F Kennedy, in the 1960s.  Gee, thanks Islam. Roll Eyes

    Quote
    One will not see any slavery of the brutal standard as was practised in the modern times in some Western countries.


    Two questions -

    1) Is there a good type of slavery?

    2) Are you claiming that muslims never mistreated their slaves?




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #50 - December 11, 2008, 04:14 PM

    A hadith freak means a confused and misguided soul

    Stop putting funny things in your shisha Ahmed, by the same lack of logic you employed, I can state that a "koran freak is a confused and misguided soul".

    You do not believe in the divinity of the hadith, so you dismiss it.
    But I also do not believe in the divinity of the hadith or the koran, so I can dismiss both by your logic.

    Once you can convince enough muslim legislators to stop using hadith, we will stop caring about hadith. Just like most of us do not care about Vishnu for example. Once you convince enough people to stop caring about the koran, for example, we will also stop caring about the koran.

    Your anti-hadith diatribes Ahmed, are to be kept for your conversations with muslims and muslims only.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #51 - December 11, 2008, 04:19 PM




    Hey bro

    I guess such hadith freak named ghazali is too ignorant to reply to, the freak does not know that slaves in Arabic can not be Ma Malakat Aymanikum, he sounds like freak HM, so I guess a life dismissal is most suited

    Cheers


    May I remind you that this behaviour will not be tolerated at this website.  You can go back to FFI if you feel the need to be so defensive that you need to resort to insulting people, but here this will just not do Ahmed.  finmad

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #52 - December 12, 2008, 12:42 AM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?



    Hey Baal

    How are you mate?

    You sound like you still as ignorant as I left you last time, LOL

    The verse means that he who has own a slave already

    Also the above verse only applies for killing by mistake, for exmaple a car accident

    Use your brain, mister Baal

    Hey Ahmed, done translating some more chapters yet? It is tough.


    Hey,

    Yeh mate, I just started sura 17, almost reaching 50% of the whole Quran which took about 14 months, I assume after passing 75% mark I will be flying due to the fact that the verses get shorter, my pphlisophy is to never rush it, the whole objective is to help those who know no Arabic to understand the message as accurate and as literal  as the words are as possible, I even inititated another project which will be a web dictionary for all the Arabic words and forms used in the Quran, I will have something very accurate to guide me me with such very tough project, I have not created the outline of the format yet bt will happen soon inshaallah.

    It will take forever because of all the errors and ambiguities that you have to keep dodging.


    There will be no dodging, you need to wait until finished, then you will be welcome to state your opinion, and I tell you, you as a akfir who speaks Arabic will have me attetion regarding your opinion, I still have at least 2 years to finish it, but times is flying as you know.

    Had the text been properly written you would have been done several times over by now.


    From which perspective you are judging what should be written proper? As I stated time us not of any importance, i only do 20 verse max a day and not every day of course, there was some delay as i have to go to Egypt and london for a few weeks and many other shit that i have to deal with. I do not consider as a work that the bloody world can't wait for, this is a humble try to pass on a more accurate message to the non Arabic speakers.

    Good Luck. If you have more text posted up for review plz let me know. I am still curious how you got over the problems I highlighted with Surat 2 last time.


    Indeed I progressed far more, I almost reached 50% and finished most very long suras which are very tiring, the task is gettin easier as I progress, my problem is the many ideas that I have when I start the first check, I can't wait till that phase starts which I predict will be by the end of 2009- the start of 2010 inshaallah.

    Your comment is copied to my site and will be looked at when I do my first check, sorry you have to wait at least a year.

    As for verse 4:92. It only means what you claimed, if it was your mom and dad that were reading it. But the reality is, the murderous believer is expected to *find* a believing slave. The text did *not* state for you to give up one of your slaves. So I am very sorry but your assumption that a slave has to be previously owned is out the window.


    Look, I am not going to argue and waste my time, you are free to understand it anyway you wish, I am transmitting message of 4:92  to the best of my knowledge while considering the whole quran message in general, while you understand it in a way while only trying to fault the religion of Allah, for me this is normal and expected because I have always witnessed how the words have been put to further confused the kafirs who hinder others from the way of Allah, while the believers will easily understand the message, this fact alone is so amazing that it is also mentioned in the Quran, therefore your dispute only strengthen my belief in the Quran, I should actually thank you for that

    Second. The killing does not have to be accidental. The killing only has to be in error. So if you kill a believer in error, then you are in the wrong.


    Fine, I accept that

    There is many other words in Arabic that the writer of the Uthmanic koran could have used to indicate 'by accident', but the writer chose to keep it open to include any wrongful killing (which includes murder).


    the arabic words used is Khataa, i.e. by mistake, that is the name of accidental murder under the current egyptian law, it is called "Qatl Khataa[/b], the same words used in the Quran, sort of accidental death by another human

    Now I understand that verse 4:92 puts a very big hole in the comforting truth that you and millions like you tend to fall back on. That, islam is there to "get rid of an existing slavery". This comforting truth is comfortable and sweet. And it is very nice of you to think like that. But unfortunately, the actual text contradicts for your comfortable reality.


    I am not really sure what the hell you are talking about so i wil pass on that

    The actual text orders you to go find a believing slave.
    The actual text did not mention existing slaves.


    Hmmm, is repeating yourself many timees will make you look smart of somethin?, well let me tell ya, you look dumb, you already said so at least once

    How do we find slaves Ahmad?


    Well, the answer is differnt depends on the generation we are living in as far as i believe, 1400 years ago there where millions of slaves every where, in fact you would have been able to buy  a family for about 2 bucks 1400 and more years ago, now days however slaves in the literal sense are hardly to be found, that is why the verse said and if you can not find one then do that or that, SEE, you have been slam dunked

    We capture.


    Really, can you capture one, now days?

    If you can, can you please get me 2 blacks and one white, thanks, I will offer them an honourable place as the Quran explained to me in the story of Yusuf

    We buy.


    From where exactly?

    Possibly Rood El Farag market, yep, can you please buy me 20 kilos of slaves, cheers

    We beg for one in exchange of favors.


    Mate you have just waste my fukin time, I am very ungrateful for that


    Either way, this verse will create a need for a slave trader and a slave market. So I am very sorry that your comfortable and inherently good truth about koran and slavery is not supported by the Uthmanic koran.





    Either way, you are dismissed
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #53 - December 12, 2008, 12:44 AM

    A hadith freak means a confused and misguided soul

    Stop putting funny things in your shisha Ahmed, by the same lack of logic you employed, I can state that a "koran freak is a confused and misguided soul".

    You do not believe in the divinity of the hadith, so you dismiss it.
    But I also do not believe in the divinity of the hadith or the koran, so I can dismiss both by your logic.

    Once you can convince enough muslim legislators to stop using hadith, we will stop caring about hadith. Just like most of us do not care about Vishnu for example. Once you convince enough people to stop caring about the koran, for example, we will also stop caring about the koran.

    Your anti-hadith diatribes Ahmed, are to be kept for your conversations with muslims and muslims only.


    Look mister Baal, I will be delighted to be called a Quran freak, I will never fell insulted, please do

    For convncing Muslims, believe me I am progressing with the will of Allah
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #54 - December 12, 2008, 01:00 AM

    Islam just like its Abrahamic siblings has miserably failed to see the evilness of slavery and therefore regarded it as a normal social order that merely needed some regulation.

    Simple indeed!

    A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
    http://freefaith.myfreeforum.org
    http://all-brains.blogspot.com
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #55 - December 12, 2008, 01:04 AM




    Hey bro

    I guess such hadith freak named ghazali is too ignorant to reply to, the freak does not know that slaves in Arabic can not be Ma Malakat Aymanikum, he sounds like freak HM, so I guess a life dismissal is most suited

    Cheers


    May I remind you that this behaviour will not be tolerated at this website.  You can go back to FFI if you feel the need to be so defensive that you need to resort to insulting people, but here this will just not do Ahmed.  finmad


    Hey

    It looks like what Bunny is saying about you on FFI is true, look dear lady, i insist on what I said, he is a hadith freak who should be dismissed and not replied to by any Muslim, he is a clone of HM who also pissed ya off. Do what you want darling

    cheers
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #56 - December 12, 2008, 01:06 AM

    Quote
    Obvioulsy yu have nothing to say, how about I dismiss ya?


    No, obviously I have plenty to say.  So how about you be polite for once, and stop threatening to dismiss people who are only asking you civil questions?

    This is not FFI.  Do not behave like it is. 

    Now, explain, please, how are the believers in the Sahih hadeeths "confused and misguided souls"?




    What do you mean by this is not FFI, I speak like that on any site even mine

    you need to fuk off and stop harassing me, freak

    fuk all your council, you bunch of kiddies
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #57 - December 12, 2008, 01:26 AM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Thanx a.ghazali, reading the verse you provided, I bolded the part that I believe is pertinent.

    The killer is expected to 'find' a slave.
    Finding is an act that takes time.
    So it is reasonable to expect that the killer should be given a 'reasonable amount of time' to 'find' a slave.
    So if the killer 'fails' to 'find' a slave in a 'reasonable' time, then the killer will have to double-fast.


    What do you think Ghazali and BMZ?



    Hey Baal

    How are you mate?

    You sound like you still as ignorant as I left you last time, LOL

    The verse means that he who has own a slave already

    Also the above verse only applies for killing by mistake, for exmaple a car accident

    Use your brain, mister Baal

    Hey Ahmed, done translating some more chapters yet? It is tough.


    Hey,

    Yeh mate, I just started sura 17, almost reaching 50% of the whole Quran which took about 14 months,

    That is impressive.

    It will take forever because of all the errors and ambiguities that you have to keep dodging.


    There will be no dodging, you need to wait until finished, then you will be welcome to state your opinion, and I tell you, you as a akfir who speaks Arabic will have me attetion regarding your opinion, I still have at least 2 years to finish it, but times is flying as you know.

    I remember there was some questions at the time as to how you will proceed. I can not remember them but One of them was whether you will use commas in your text. The koran is completely devoid of commas and somehow they get introduced in the English translation. Also some senteces like "Allah Anzal Kitaboh - Allah descended his writing" is often translated into English by meaning only. As if the English readers are too stupid to come to the conclusion as what 'descended his writing' means. So I was hoping you will actually stick to the word for word.


    As for verse 4:92. It only means what you claimed, if it was your mom and dad that were reading it. But the reality is, the murderous believer is expected to *find* a believing slave. The text did *not* state for you to give up one of your slaves. So I am very sorry but your assumption that a slave has to be previously owned is out the window.


    Look, I am not going to argue and waste my time, you are free to understand it anyway you wish,

    Free to believe anyways I wish? Since when are we free to believe anyways we wish? You and me are not free to write and interpret visual basic anyway we wish. Actually I am not free to understand it anyway I wish. I am actually quite bound to understand it as it is written.

    As I said, if you are discussing the verse with mom & pop then you are free to use whatever latitude you want. But when you and me discuss it, we are not free to believe as we wish.

    I am transmitting message of 4:92  to the best of my knowledge while considering the whole quran message in general,

    The whole koran message is quite crappy when it comes to slavery. Remember the one about how "You are not allowed to inherit widows *unless* they were witnessed."

    therefore your dispute only strengthen my belief in the Quran, I should actually thank you for that

    Yep. Here it comes. The First step to disbelief. Nothing to be ashamed of. Every single apostate stated that their religion was strengthened right before they put it to rest. And it only makes sense. It is only a matter of time now before you are done with your islamic experience.

    For the record, I am only making a prediction but I doubt I will be in celebratory mood once you apostate. With all the frustration and confusion you sowed I will be more inclined to leave you a black coal in your mailbox every morning for a lot of mornings. And you can take this as a compliment whether you choose to terminate the experience or whether you try for a bit longer.


    There is many other words in Arabic that the writer of the Uthmanic koran could have used to indicate 'by accident', but the writer chose to keep it open to include any wrongful killing (which includes murder).


    the arabic words used is Khataa, i.e. by mistake, that is the name of accidental murder under the current egyptian law, it is called "Qatl Khataa[/b], the same words used in the Quran, sort of accidental death by another human

    Now I understand that verse 4:92 puts a very big hole in the comforting truth that you and millions like you tend to fall back on. That, islam is there to "get rid of an existing slavery". This comforting truth is comfortable and sweet. And it is very nice of you to think like that. But unfortunately, the actual text contradicts for your comfortable reality.


    I am not really sure what the hell you are talking about so i wil pass on that

    The actual text orders you to go find a believing slave.
    The actual text did not mention existing slaves.


    Hmmm, is repeating yourself many timees will make you look smart of somethin?, well let me tell ya, you look dumb, you already said so at least once

    How do we find slaves Ahmad?


    Well, the answer is differnt depends on the generation we are living in as far as i believe, 1400 years ago there where millions of slaves every where, in fact you would have been able to buy  a family for about 2 bucks 1400 and more years ago, now days however slaves in the literal sense are hardly to be found, that is why the verse said and if you can not find one then do that or that, SEE, you have been slam dunked


    We capture.


    Really, can you capture one, now days?

    If you can, can you please get me 2 blacks and one white, thanks, I will offer them an honourable place as the Quran explained to me in the story of Yusuf


    We buy.


    From where exactly?

    Possibly Rood El Farag market, yep, can you please buy me 20 kilos of slaves, cheers

    We beg for one in exchange of favors.

    Mate you have just waste my fukin time, I am very ungrateful for that

    And you still fail to explain why a killer is asked to 'find' a slave, instead of being asked to free One of his own. So how is the koran expecting us to 'find' a slave. How can the killer find his slave? This is how you 'find' a slave. You had a chance to refute me and failed: You buy a slave. You capture a slave. You barter for a Slave. If you still need me to explain to you how we capture slaves then this is going to be a very long day.

    Either way, this verse will create a need for a slave trader and a slave market. So I am very sorry that your comfortable and inherently good truth about koran and slavery is not supported by the Uthmanic koran.

    Either way, you are dismissed

    Losing your touch that quickly now. A dismissal following a failure as well. Your getting old old man.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #58 - December 12, 2008, 10:57 AM

    Quote
    Obvioulsy yu have nothing to say, how about I dismiss ya?


    No, obviously I have plenty to say.  So how about you be polite for once, and stop threatening to dismiss people who are only asking you civil questions?

    This is not FFI.  Do not behave like it is. 

    Now, explain, please, how are the believers in the Sahih hadeeths "confused and misguided souls"?

    What do you mean by this is not FFI, I speak like that on any site even mine

    you need to fuk off and stop harassing me, freak

    fuk all your council, you bunch of kiddies

    Ahmed, if you're only here to troll you can spend your time here in Damnation.
    Smite 1 for you. If you want more you are most welcome to them. I'm easy.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #59 - December 12, 2008, 01:36 PM

    I guess such hadith freak named ghazali is too ignorant to reply to, the freak does not know that slaves in Arabic can not be Ma Malakat Aymanikum, he sounds like freak HM, so I guess a life dismissal is most suited


    Apologies for not replying earlier but other commitments were more important.

    For me Islam comprises both the Qur'an and Hadiths. Oh and also Sirat Rasul Allah.

    Should you wish to disregard the Hadiths then that is your prerogative. But how will you follow the example of the prophet, how Sharia Law will be adminstered, how you will know what direction to face in the toilet, how you will know what direction to bury your loved ones, or how tto lick your fingers after a meal and countless other Islamic stipulations, I do not know?

    ma malakat aymanukum basically means 'that which your right hand possess' In other words those captured in battle. Example of use in the Qur'an is 4:24.

    And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you...

    The captives of war generally became slaves as decreed by Muhammad after many 'expeditions'. Hence my association of the two.

    Muhammad recommended that men can freely have sex with women, even if married, who are captured in battle. If this is not rape then I don't know what is.

    The actual word for slave in Islam is 'aabd' (abdi). And this is used throughout the Qur'an. As with the verse we discussed earlier regarding punishment categorised by the free, slave or women. The verse specifically states,

    ...waalAAabdu bialAAabdi .. slave for the slave


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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