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 Topic: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?

 (Read 13240 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     OP - December 10, 2008, 06:00 AM

    This is another interesting topic.

    Please discuss.

    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #1 - December 10, 2008, 07:15 AM

    yeah sure. There are ayats (verses of Qur'an) that regulate slavery, and of course hadiths.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #2 - December 10, 2008, 07:16 AM

    +1  I was so shocked when I learnt Islam allowed slavery, and even endorsed it on some occasions, because I was led to believe Islam came to stop slavery.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #3 - December 10, 2008, 09:15 AM

    Well that looks like the discussion sorted then.  Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #4 - December 10, 2008, 09:28 AM

    yeah sure. There are ayats (verses of Qur'an) that regulate slavery, and of course hadiths.


    You used the word regulate and that does not mean support or sponsor or promote slavery. Which ayats are you referring to? Any particular verses in mind?

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture. There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery. Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.

    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #5 - December 10, 2008, 09:35 AM

    +1  I was so shocked when I learnt Islam allowed slavery, and even endorsed it on some occasions, because I was led to believe Islam came to stop slavery.


    No, Ella. Islam did not come to stop or abolish slavery. That was not the purpose. Islam came only to remove idolatory and trinity.  It never endorsed slavery.

    However, it created an avenue for manumitting of slaves, the first by a religion.

    Salaams
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #6 - December 10, 2008, 09:37 AM

    Well that looks like the discussion sorted then.  Cheesy


    Glad to see you, osmanthus.  Smiley

    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #7 - December 10, 2008, 09:56 AM

    +1  I was so shocked when I learnt Islam allowed slavery, and even endorsed it on some occasions, because I was led to believe Islam came to stop slavery.


    No, Ella. Islam did not come to stop or abolish slavery.


    Umm... yah, she knows this.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #8 - December 10, 2008, 10:02 AM

    However, it created an avenue for manumitting of slaves, the first by a religion.

    Salaams
    BMZ

    I've heard about this but can anyone explain how exactly Islam did this?
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #9 - December 10, 2008, 10:13 AM

    However, it created an avenue for manumitting of slaves, the first by a religion.

    Salaams
    BMZ

    Not true. Judaism also provided for the freeing of slaves and it did so well before Islam.   

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #10 - December 10, 2008, 10:18 AM

    You used the word regulate and that does not mean support or sponsor or promote slavery. Which ayats are you referring to? Any particular verses in mind?

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture. There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery. Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.

    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.

    Cheers
    BMZ

    If it regulates slavery then that obviously means it provides for the continuance of slavery, and thus it can hardly be maintained that Islam was against slavery. Let's look at it another way: if Islam was against slavery why is this not made clear in the relevant texts? Surely Allah would be capable of making himself clear on the matter if he thought it important.

    As for the ahadith, are you saying you are a Quran-aloner? If you are not saying this then surely the ahadith may be relevant.

    Oh and Judaism did provide a code of conduct towards slaves. In any case what Judaism or Christianity may or may not have done is irrelevant to Islam. When I saw this thread with your name on it I was wondering how long it would take you to start attacking Chrisitianity as a diversion from discussion about Islam. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #11 - December 10, 2008, 10:37 AM

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture.


    Sahih hadiths are not junk. They have been considered 'Authentic' by all the great Islamic scholars of the past.

    Most of Sharia law is based on the Hadiths.

    Much of the Qur'an cannot be understood without reference to the Hadiths.

    The thing is, it is conveniently rejected when the need arises and conversely referenced when the Qur'an needs support to explain many of the vilolent , intolerant or absurd ayat.

    Quote
    There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery.

     

    Can you give an example.

    Quote
    Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.


    Au contraire mon ami. Without the Hadiths the Qur'an and Islam would not have much of a leg to stand on.

    Quote
    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.


    Actually Islam perpetuated slavery of the non-believers. And only allowed manumission for those who converted to Islam.

    The idea was to increase the ummah by freeing believing slaves and going out and conquering other nations and replacing those slaves.

    I will give more details later. I'm at work at the moment

    The freeing of slaves existed long before Islam. The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans freed slave for for good and long service, not because of religious affiliation like Islam.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #12 - December 10, 2008, 11:08 AM

    However, it created an avenue for manumitting of slaves, the first by a religion.

    Salaams
    BMZ

    Not true. Judaism also provided for the freeing of slaves and it did so well before Islam.   


    That is news to me. Can you please provide wome references?

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #13 - December 10, 2008, 11:18 AM

    You used the word regulate and that does not mean support or sponsor or promote slavery. Which ayats are you referring to? Any particular verses in mind?

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture. There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery. Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.

    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.

    Cheers
    BMZ

    If it regulates slavery then that obviously means it provides for the continuance of slavery, and thus it can hardly be maintained that Islam was against slavery. Let's look at it another way: if Islam was against slavery why is this not made clear in the relevant texts? Surely Allah would be capable of making himself clear on the matter if he thought it important.

    As for the ahadith, are you saying you are a Quran-aloner? If you are not saying this then surely the ahadith may be relevant.

    Oh and Judaism did provide a code of conduct towards slaves. In any case what Judaism or Christianity may or may not have done is irrelevant to Islam. When I saw this thread with your name on it I was wondering how long it would take you to start attacking Chrisitianity as a diversion from discussion about Islam. Grin


    No, I did not use the word regulatory, another poster did. I haven't even begun to attack Christianity but surely, I do that at every opportunity.  Cheesy

    Yes, I discuss mainly based on Qur'aan alone as the ahaadith are full of junk and stuff.

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #14 - December 10, 2008, 11:25 AM

    Are you muslim BMZ?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #15 - December 10, 2008, 11:28 AM

    However, it created an avenue for manumitting of slaves, the first by a religion.

    Salaams
    BMZ

    Not true. Judaism also provided for the freeing of slaves and it did so well before Islam.   


    That is news to me. Can you please provide wome references?

    Cheers
    BMZ

    Of course. There are stacks of references online and offline.
    Here's a quick one: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/05-Worship/section-55.html

    Quote
    Slavery, as permitted by the Torah was quite different from Greek
         and Roman Slavery, or even the cruel system in some modern
         countries down to our own times. In Hebrew law, the slave was not a
         thing, but a human being; he was not the chattel of a master who
         had unlimited power over him. In the Hebrew language, there is only
         one word for slave and servant. Brutal treatment of any slave,
         whether Hebrew or heathen, secures his immediate liberty.

    Jewish law required that a slave could go free in the seventh year of
       service (Exodus 21:2), although his family would not be freed;
       although if he came into servitude with a wife, that wife would also
       be freed. The slave could, however, indicate that they perferred
       bondage to freedom. Every fiftieth year (the "Jubilee"), the slaves
       with their families would be emancipated, and property (except house
       property in a walled city) would revert to its original owner. (Lev
       XXV:8-55).


    Just run a search on judaism and slavery and you'll find heaps.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #16 - December 10, 2008, 11:31 AM

    You used the word regulate and that does not mean support or sponsor or promote slavery. Which ayats are you referring to? Any particular verses in mind?

    Hadith material is full of junk and stuff and it is not Scripture. There are also some ahaadith which do not support slavery. Thus it is no use taking Hadith into consideration.

    Islam does not support slavery at all. Also, Qur'aan did not specifically forbid it but it did better than the two counterparts, by giving a code of conduct and introducing manumitting of slaves.

    Cheers
    BMZ

    If it regulates slavery then that obviously means it provides for the continuance of slavery, and thus it can hardly be maintained that Islam was against slavery. Let's look at it another way: if Islam was against slavery why is this not made clear in the relevant texts? Surely Allah would be capable of making himself clear on the matter if he thought it important.

    As for the ahadith, are you saying you are a Quran-aloner? If you are not saying this then surely the ahadith may be relevant.

    Oh and Judaism did provide a code of conduct towards slaves. In any case what Judaism or Christianity may or may not have done is irrelevant to Islam. When I saw this thread with your name on it I was wondering how long it would take you to start attacking Chrisitianity as a diversion from discussion about Islam. Grin


    No, I did not use the word regulatory, another poster did. I haven't even begun to attack Christianity but surely, I do that at every opportunity.  Cheesy

    Yes, I discuss mainly based on Qur'aan alone as the ahaadith are full of junk and stuff.

    Cheers
    BMZ

    I never said you did use that word. You are, in your usual style, completing evading the relevant point. The point was that Islam provides for the continuance of slavery and therefore cannot realistically be said to be against slavery. So, in a sense Islam did support slavery, in that it allowed it to continue and simply contented itself with introducing a few minor regulations.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #17 - December 10, 2008, 11:36 AM

    The following is the chapter on slavery from the project I'm working on. It shows that Islam legislates for, encouraged and perpetuated slavery.

    Slavery ? The Right Hand Possession


    "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other - it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner."
    Dr. 'Abdul-Latif Mushtahari
    (Director of Homiletics and Guidance
    Al-Azhar University, Cairo)


    Slavery had existed in pre-Islamic times and is well supported in the Bible's Old and New Testaments. Muhammad's continuation of this Abrahamic tradition, where everyone outside their fold was considered an infidel or heathen, ripe for subjugation on account of their non acceptance of an exclusive one true God, allowed the perpetuation of slavery wherever these scriptures impacted society. Muhammad captured, traded, owned, distributed, freed and slept with slaves.

    Muhammad, supposedly the best of creation according to his followers, set an example that was followed religiously for thirteen hundred years until international pressures brought an end to mass slavery in Islamic nations in the early twentieth century. However slavery still does continue in many Islamic societies under various guises by those who consider it still justifiable under Allah's unchanging final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an and Hadiths unequivocally justify slavery, stipulates the uses of slaves, their rights and even the status of their descendants. Many times in the scriptures, slaves are referred to as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands possess"). In Islam a slave is therefore viewed as an object to be owned, traded and treated according to the whims of their owner.

    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans. Q.2:178 - O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. This verse implies that a free man, slave and female are different categories of humans otherwise why differentiate? A point to note is that 'the free' refers to a man. Hence technically speaking a woman, in Muhammad's eyes, is not free but is some form of possession, belonging to a man hence categorised differently from 'the free'. The crucial aspect of this verse is the requirement for killing like for like as retaliation. Hence should a free man kill a slave it is not the free man that will be killed as the punishment, it will be one of the free man's slave; the slave just being merchandise used as compensation for a man's crime.

    An example of slaves being used for compensation for their master's crime can be fond in the hadith, SB 83:41 - Two women fought with each other and one threw a stone causing the other to miscarriage. Allah's Apostle commanded that the killer (of the fetus) should give a male or female slave as blood money.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #18 - December 10, 2008, 11:37 AM

    (....Part 2)

    According to many Muslim apologists Islam recommends the freeing of slaves and hence was advancement in human rights as compared to biblical pre-Islamic times. But let us investigate one such Qur'anic verse used to justify this.

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid? but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Essentially what this verse is saying is that should a Muslim kill a fellow Muslim by mistake, manslaughter, the convicted Muslim should free one of his slaves as the punishment. Firstly this is hardly an incentive to free slaves, and also note that the key characteristic of the slave being freed is that he/she must be Muslim. Therefore an unbelieving slave has no such avenue for freedom. Also Muhammad assumes that Muslims own slaves as a matter of course and slavery was legal, otherwise institutionalising such a penalty for such a severe crime would be pointless. The value of a slave's life according to this verse is a fast for two consecutive months, in other words add an extra month to the Ramadan fast month and that is what a slave is worth. Finally, one of Muhammad's obvious concerns with this decree was that Islam's loss of a free Muslim needed to be balanced back with another from the slave pool. That pool of slaves would however need to be replenished thereby leading to further enslavement of innocent non-believers. So contrary to ending slavery, such verses only perpetuated its practice throughout history.

    What rights does the master have over the slave? The following verses have Muhammad granting men the privilege of going unto their slaves as they would onto their wives.

    Q.23:5-6 - (Successful are the believers) who abstain from sex, except with their wives or those whom their right hands possess (slaves), for they are free from blame.

    The verses clearly give the slave owner the right of sexual access to his female slaves. Notice the reciprocal arrangement for women to approach their male slaves is non existent! The verse ends with the statement that there is no blame, in other words no sin involved in what is essentially committing rape.

    How did Muhammad and his fellow Muslims acquire their slaves? Well of course children born of slaves were automatically slaves and the property of the parents' owner. However the main source was from captives obtained from war booty of which Muhammad obtained twenty percent.

    Q.33:50 - O Prophet! We have made lawful to you your wives and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war. In Sahih Bukhari we read, SB 59:447  'Kill their warriors and take their wives and offspring as captives'

    This revelation from Allah explicitly states that Muhammad and Muslims obtained slaves as their share of the captives in war. Muslims always prized females, not only because they could be used to do domestic work, but also because they could be used to used to satisfy their carnal appetites. In many battles the surviving males were killed and only the women and children enslaved. A prime example was Muhammad's invasion of Khaybar SB 8:367 - Dihya asked, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya. The Prophet said, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Muhammad on seeing Safiya wanted her for himself. Women captured by the Muslims were simply commodities traded for their bodies.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #19 - December 10, 2008, 11:38 AM

    (....Part 3)

    Ownership of slaves attracted no taxation on their owners as explicitly declared by Muhammad in SB 24:542 Allah's Apostle said, There is no Zakat (tax) either on a horse or a slave belonging to a Muslim. Obviously slaves and horses were essential commodities to Muslims and hence exempted from taxation.

    Beating of slaves was obviously commonplace as can be ascertained from the words of Muhammad SB 60:466 It is not wise for anyone of you to lash his wife like a slave, for he might sleep with her the same evening. Maybe if you do not intend to sleep with her that night a lashing might be in order! Apparently, for Muhammad, the reason for not severely beating a woman had nothing to do with her rights as a human being but more to do with the man being satisfied in the evenings.

    A child born out of wedlock is destined for slavery according to Muhammad in this hadith, SAD 11:2126 - A man said: I married a virgin but found her pregnant. The Prophet said: She will get the dowry, for it made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten flog her. The vagina of the woman is lawful to the husband hence presumably what comes out, becomes his property regardless of who is the mother or biological father. They have no say in the matter and their child is given into slavery to the one who gave the woman a dowry to apparently purchase her genital.

    Muhammad had no problem utilising the services of other people's slaves when required, such as in SB 8:439 - Allah's Apostle sent someone to a woman telling her to "Order her slave to prepare a wooden pulpit for him to sit on."

    The freeing of slaves was not always a rewarding option as Muhammad points out in SB 47:765 - Maimuna bint Al-Harith said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I freed my slave-girl?" He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given the slave to one of your maternal uncles."

    Muhammad was an equal opportunity slave master obviously employing the service of slaves from around the globe. SB 60:435 - I went to Allah's Apostle's residence and a black slave of Allah's Apostle was sitting on the first step. I said to him, 'Say to the Prophet 'Umar bin Al-Khattab is here....'

    Trading slaves was not an issue for Muhammad as we see in SB 10:3901 Allah's Apostle said: Sell him (a slave) to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and in SB 34:351 - Nu'aim bin 'Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet gave him the slave.

    The rewards for one freeing a Muslim slave are quite interesting: SB 79:706 The Prophet said, "If somebody frees a Muslim slave, Allah will save from the Fire every part of his body for freeing the corresponding parts of the slave's body, even his private parts will be saved from the Fire because of freeing the slave's private parts." Freeing a slave, a Muslim one of course, brought great merit to the owner who was guaranteed that their private parts would not be burnt in the fire. By freeing slaves who had converted to Islam, Muhammad ensured growth of his ummah. For slaves were easy to replace from the constant expeditions conducted.

    Slaves obeying their master or the master converting his captured slave girl to Islam and marrying her brought double rewards as Muhammad explains in SB 3:97 - Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward: 1. A Christian or Jew who embraced Islam. 2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master. 3. A master of who converts his female-slave to Islam, frees her and then marries her." It was imperative that a slave was converted to Islam before they could be freed and then married. No concern is given for the wishes of the slave-girl regarding her choice of husband. Again this was all part of Muhammad's strategy for expanding the Muslim community.

    Slaves were obviously discouraged from running away from their masters. Muhammad states in Sahih Muslim 1:129, The slave who fled from his master committed an act of infidelity as long as he would not return to him. Further he adds in 1:131, When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted. Therefore threatening that God will not answer a runaway slave's prayers played into the gullible hands of the downtrodden.

    If a slave was freed, everything they owned, even family members, was to be inherited by the master. Muhammad explains in Sahih Muslim 9:3595, The right of inheritance for a freed slave rests with one who emancipates. Therefore for many, freedom may not have been a desirable option.

    Muhammad's life and teachings embodied the principles of slavery. He encouraged it, laying a foundation for succeeding generations of Muslims to follow suit. The resulting effect was vast segments of humanity suffering untold mental, physical and emotional trauma over many centuries. Muhammad had the power to end slavery had he had an ounce of humanitarian compassion in his genes.

    He was able to prohibit alcohol, pork and adultery, yet he vigorously promoted slavery. How a man who disgracefully used and abused fellow human beings could ever be considered the best example of a human being, is one of the miracles of Islam.

    ----------------

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #20 - December 10, 2008, 11:43 AM

    nice a.ghazali. you're definately no elle.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #21 - December 10, 2008, 11:49 AM

    The finishing touch is a good one:

    Quote
    He was able to prohibit alcohol, pork and adultery, yet he vigorously promoted slavery. How a man who disgracefully used and abused fellow human beings could ever be considered the best example of a human being, is one of the miracles of Islam.

    Miraculous indeed.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #22 - December 10, 2008, 01:21 PM

    The finishing touch is a good one:

    Quote
    He was able to prohibit alcohol, pork and adultery, yet he vigorously promoted slavery. How a man who disgracefully used and abused fellow human beings could ever be considered the best example of a human being, is one of the miracles of Islam.

    Miraculous indeed.


    I second that.

    I have to admit that the a.ghazali's posts on the subject of slavery in Islam have been some the most shocking I've read with regards to Islam up to this point in the few years I've had an interest in it.

    It's incredulous how anyone reading them can remain a Muslim.
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #23 - December 10, 2008, 01:59 PM

    The following is the chapter on slavery from the project I'm working on. It shows that Islam legislates for, encouraged and perpetuated slavery.

    Slavery ? The Right Hand Possession


    "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other - it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner."
    Dr. 'Abdul-Latif Mushtahari
    (Director of Homiletics and Guidance
    Al-Azhar University, Cairo)


    Slavery had existed in pre-Islamic times and is well supported in the Bible's Old and New Testaments. Muhammad's continuation of this Abrahamic tradition, where everyone outside their fold was considered an infidel or heathen, ripe for subjugation on account of their non acceptance of an exclusive one true God, allowed the perpetuation of slavery wherever these scriptures impacted society. Muhammad captured, traded, owned, distributed, freed and slept with slaves.

    Muhammad, supposedly the best of creation according to his followers, set an example that was followed religiously for thirteen hundred years until international pressures brought an end to mass slavery in Islamic nations in the early twentieth century. However slavery still does continue in many Islamic societies under various guises by those who consider it still justifiable under Allah's unchanging final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an and Hadiths unequivocally justify slavery, stipulates the uses of slaves, their rights and even the status of their descendants. Many times in the scriptures, slaves are referred to as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands possess"). In Islam a slave is therefore viewed as an object to be owned, traded and treated according to the whims of their owner.

    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

    Q.2:178 - O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. This verse implies that a free man, slave and female are different categories of humans otherwise why differentiate? A point to note is that 'the free' refers to a man. Hence technically speaking a woman, in Muhammad's eyes, is not free but is some form of possession, belonging to a man hence categorised differently from 'the free'. The crucial aspect of this verse is the requirement for killing like for like as retaliation. Hence should a free man kill a slave it is not the free man that will be killed as the punishment, it will be one of the free man's slave; the slave just being merchandise used as compensation for a man's crime.

    An example of slaves being used for compensation for their master's crime can be fond in the hadith, SB 83:41 - Two women fought with each other and one threw a stone causing the other to miscarriage. Allah's Apostle commanded that the killer (of the fetus) should give a male or female slave as blood money.



    You are quoting a personal opinion of some Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, who prefers to word his statement as "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons." and you are quoting ridiculous ahaadith. Is this Dr. Mushtahari also an ex-muslim?  Cheesy

    You wrote:
    Quote
    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

     and then quote me 2:178 for your blunderous assumption.
    The verse in not talking about differential treatment of people. 

    Listen. Q 2:178 is talking about death punishment. If a free man was murdered by another freeman, that man had to get death punishment. If a slave killed another slave, that killer slave was also to receive death punishment. If a woman killed a woman, the woman had to receive death punishment.

    Quote

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ ﴿١٧٨﴾ 
     
    178:O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. 
     
    وَلَكُمْ فِي الْقِصَاصِ حَيَاةٌ يَاْ أُولِيْ الأَلْبَابِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ﴿١٧٩﴾ 
     
    179:In the Law of Equality, there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.

     

    In simple words, whoever kills anyone, shall receive death punishment, whether one was a free man, a slave or a woman. It does not mean that if a woman killed a man or a man killed a woman, he/she goes scot-free.  Cheesy

    Now, what are the Arabic words for Slave and Slavery? If you can write in Arabic and transliterate, I will appreciate. If you don't know Arabic, you can ask Arabic-speaking ex-Muslim friends here.

    Please tell Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari to go, learn and read Qur'aan. Also tell him not to spread misinformation. Will wait for your answer. Till then, I will not be posting comments on your other posts.

    Cheers
    BMZ


  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #24 - December 10, 2008, 02:35 PM

    (....Part 2)

    According to many Muslim apologists Islam recommends the freeing of slaves and hence was advancement in human rights as compared to biblical pre-Islamic times. But let us investigate one such Qur'anic verse used to justify this.

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid? but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Essentially what this verse is saying is that should a Muslim kill a fellow Muslim by mistake, manslaughter, the convicted Muslim should free one of his slaves as the punishment. Firstly this is hardly an incentive to free slaves, and also note that the key characteristic of the slave being freed is that he/she must be Muslim. Therefore an unbelieving slave has no such avenue for freedom. Also Muhammad assumes that Muslims own slaves as a matter of course and slavery was legal, otherwise institutionalising such a penalty for such a severe crime would be pointless. The value of a slave's life according to this verse is a fast for two consecutive months, in other words add an extra month to the Ramadan fast month and that is what a slave is worth. Finally, one of Muhammad's obvious concerns with this decree was that Islam's loss of a free Muslim needed to be balanced back with another from the slave pool. That pool of slaves would however need to be replenished thereby leading to further enslavement of innocent non-believers. So contrary to ending slavery, such verses only perpetuated its practice throughout history.


    Again, you distort and misinterpret the verse. For accidental killing, not pre-meditated murder, one was to pay compensation, followed by manumitting a slave who believed in Allah, so that he/she could be a free person.

    Read this again:

    Quote
    وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ أَن يَقْتُلَ مُؤْمِنًا إِلاَّ خَطَئًا وَمَن قَتَلَ مُؤْمِنًا خَطَئًا فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ إِلاَّ أَن يَصَّدَّقُواْ فَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ عَدُوٍّ لَّكُمْ وَهُوَ مْؤْمِنٌ فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَاقٌ فَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ وَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةً فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ شَهْرَيْنِ مُتَتَابِعَيْنِ تَوْبَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا ﴿٩٢﴾ 
     
    92:Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom. 
     
    وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِنًا مُّتَعَمِّدًا فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَابًا عَظِيمًا ﴿٩٣﴾ 
     
    93:If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.


    In the end, it is not just freeing of a slave but includes compensation also. And verse 93 confirms again that a man who committed a  pre-meditated murder shall receive death punishment.

    So please do not distort the verses in your anti-Qur'aan and anti-Islam "project".  Cheesy

    For the other part containing ma malakat aymanaykum, I will wait for your confirmation of the words in Arabic for Slave and Salvery.

    Cheers
    BMZ

  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #25 - December 10, 2008, 03:36 PM

    You are quoting a personal opinion of some Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, who prefers to word his statement as "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons." and you are quoting ridiculous ahaadith. Is this Dr. Mushtahari also an ex-muslim?


    Dr. Mushtari is very much a Muslim, a professor at one of the most highly recorgnised Islamic Universities in the world. I just used a quote from him to precede the chapter I wrote on Slavery in Islam. He is a scholar of Islam.

    Quote
    and then quote me 2:178 for your blunderous assumption.
    The verse in not talking about differential treatment of people. 

    Listen. Q 2:178 is talking about death punishment. If a free man was murdered by another freeman, that man had to get death punishment. If a slave killed another slave, that killer slave was also to receive death punishment. If a woman killed a woman, the woman had to receive death punishment.


    You do not seem to understand. If they were not different then all Allah had to say was if a human killed another human then such and such is the punishment. But No. It says 'if a free kills a free or slave kills a slave.... '

    He starts the ayat with: The law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder The free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.

    In other words the free and the free are equal, the slave and the slave are equal and the woaman and the woman are equal. But the slave is not equal to the free or the woman not equal with the slave, etc.

    Why is a slave killing a slave any different to a woman killing a woman or a free killing a free? Why speak of murder in three categories, if life of each of those categories had the same value? Because they don't.

    The point I'm making is that Muhammad and by extension Allah recognised slavery and catered for it throughout the Qur'an and hadiths.

    I never said it was talking about differential treatment of people. I said 'This verse implies that a free man, slave and female are different categories of humans otherwise why differentiate?'.

    Quote
    In simple words, whoever kills anyone, shall receive death punishment, whether one was a free man, a slave or a woman. It does not mean that if a woman killed a man or a man killed a woman, he/she goes scot-free.


    So why was Allah not clear. Why say a Free for a free a slave for a slave....

    In Islam if a Muslim killed a slave he would not be punished as if a slave killed a Muslim. The former would have to pay some form of blood money of give a slave in compensation. The latter would be punished with death.

    But that is not the point here. Your question was 'Is Slavery supported in the Qur'an Islam?'. And verses like these clearly points to its support.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #26 - December 10, 2008, 03:54 PM

    You are quoting a personal opinion of some Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, who prefers to word his statement as "Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons." and you are quoting ridiculous ahaadith. Is this Dr. Mushtahari also an ex-muslim?  Cheesy

    Legal Status vs Divine Status:
    Your opinion that hadith is ridiculous is not accepted. You do not believe in their divinity, and that is okay. I do not believe in their divinity either and neither does a.ghazali. However it is not the divine status that is being put forward on the table, I will add that neither me nor a.ghazali believe in the divinity of koran either. It is the legal status that is put forward. The hadith carries a legal status.


    You wrote:
    Quote
    According to Muhammad a slave is categorised differently from other humans.

     and then quote me 2:178 for your blunderous assumption.
    The verse in not talking about differential treatment of people. 

    Listen. Q 2:178 is talking about death punishment. If a free man was murdered by another freeman, that man had to get death punishment. If a slave killed another slave, that killer slave was also to receive death punishment. If a woman killed a woman, the woman had to receive death punishment.

    Quote

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ ﴿١٧٨﴾ 
     
    178:O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. 
     
    وَلَكُمْ فِي الْقِصَاصِ حَيَاةٌ يَاْ أُولِيْ الأَلْبَابِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ﴿١٧٩﴾ 
     
    179:In the Law of Equality, there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.

     

    In simple words, whoever kills anyone, shall receive death punishment, whether one was a free man, a slave or a woman. It does not mean that if a woman killed a man or a man killed a woman, he/she goes scot-free.  Cheesy

    The word Kisas does not mean "Law of equality". You are still using English translation crap to appeal and apologize to foreign pussies.
    The word Kisas means revenge punishment.

    The word 'Alyaf' does not mean "men of understanding", that is another appeal to the pussies.
    The word 'Alyaf' means nobility. The Alyaf of a tribe are the leaders of the tribe.

    This is how the verse sounds word for word: "You have in punishment a life O nobility may you become pious".

    If you are going to follow the religion of a God from my area because you do not have One of your own. And then bend over to him Five times a day, then the least you should do is show respect and learn the language before you go around and spread crap that has nothing to do with my god.

    As for equating free for the free, slave for the slave, woman for the woman, that is a categorization of humans according to gender and social status. That is the point that a.ghazali made and that is the point you failed to refute.

    Quote
    Now, what are the Arabic words for Slave and Slavery? If you can write in Arabic and transliterate, I will appreciate. If you don't know Arabic, you can ask Arabic-speaking ex-Muslim friends here.

    You will find the word in verse 2:178.

    Please tell Dr. Abdul-Latif Mushtahari to go, learn and read Qur'aan. Also tell him not to spread misinformation. Will wait for your answer. Till then, I will not be posting comments on your other posts.

    Dr Abdul Latif had most of his koran memorized before he hit puberty. And unlike most of us, he knows how to read arabic.

    Cheers
    BMZ

    Cheers indeed.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #27 - December 10, 2008, 04:06 PM

    Again, you distort and misinterpret the verse. For accidental killing, not pre-meditated murder, one was to pay compensation, followed by manumitting a slave who believed in Allah, so that he/she could be a free person.


    How can I be distorting the verse when my point is slavery is supported in Islam? Your own explanation supports what I say: ...by manumitting a slave who believed in Allah

    BTW why not free a slave who does not believe in Allah?

    If a Muslim is killed accidently, money is paid to his family and a Muslim slave is freed. What kind of justice is that for god to create? If a free Muslim is lost to the ummah then another has to replace him and so one is pulled from the slave pool. That is the logic behind this injunction. The Slave will be easily be replaced from future expeditions.

    If I killed someone and had lots of money I basically get away with a fine and loss of a slave. For a rich man that's no big thing. What kind of law is that?

    What happens if a non-Muslim is killed by a Muslim? Tell me, BMZ.

    Quote
    In the end, it is not just freeing of a slave but includes compensation also.


    And that I stated. And you admit Allah speaks for freeing slaves hence slavery is part and parcel of Allah's society.

     
    Quote
    93:If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.


     And verse 93 confirms again that a man who committed a  pre-meditated murder shall receive death punishment.


    Only if the murdered person is a believer. It does not specify what his recompense would be if he murdered a non-believer. What would that be then?


    Quote
    So please do not distort the verses in your anti-Qur'aan and anti-Islam "project".


    I see absolutely no distortion in anything I wrote. If there's been any distortion I see it coming from your attempts at apologies for unsupportable scripture.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #28 - December 10, 2008, 04:11 PM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: DID QUR'AAN AND ISLAM SUPPORT SLAVERY?
     Reply #29 - December 10, 2008, 04:21 PM

    Hey Ghazali, a question: If a muslim does not own a slave, and then commits a non-pre-meditated muder. Can he ask the family of the murdered for some time so he can go, capture some slaves, convert One of them, and then make a payment?



    No he has to pay the blood money and fast for 2 consecutive months. So he can do Ramadan and then follow it with another month of fasting. So an extra month of him fasting would presumably equal the value of a slave!

    Q.4:92 - And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid, but he who cannot find a slave should fast for two months successively

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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