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 Topic: 'Saving' women

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  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #30 - December 16, 2008, 05:00 PM

    The Islamic answer would be to TEACH the man self control.  If he doesn't want to face having his wife screwed by another man, then he has to think carefully before he says the final Talaaq.

    It doesn't really teach you self-control though, everyone makes mistakes. What if they really both want to get back together? She should not have to prostitute herself because of her ex-husband in order to remarry.

    Also, since when did Islam teach men self-control? They place the burden on the women by asking her to cover up her beauty because obviously men are animals and leap on any women if they see an inch of cleavage...
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #31 - December 16, 2008, 05:03 PM


    It doesn't really teach you self-control though, everyone makes mistakes. What if they really both want to get back together? She should not have to prostitute herself because of her ex-husband in order to remarry.


    You need to take that up with Mo.  Tongue

    Quote
    Also, since when did Islam teach men self-control? They place the burden on the women by asking her to cover up her beauty because obviously men are animals and leap on any women if they see an inch of cleavage...


    Actually anger is the self control men need to learn in Islam, NOTHING must be done in anger.  If you beat your wife it musn't be done in anger, just in a controlled firm manner, and when you say Talaaq is shouldn't be motivated by anger either.

    The onus might be on the women for cheating, but for anger it is on the men.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #32 - December 16, 2008, 05:09 PM


    It doesn't really teach you self-control though, everyone makes mistakes. What if they really both want to get back together? She should not have to prostitute herself because of her ex-husband in order to remarry.


    You need to take that up with Mo.  Tongue

    Quote
    Also, since when did Islam teach men self-control? They place the burden on the women by asking her to cover up her beauty because obviously men are animals and leap on any women if they see an inch of cleavage...


    Actually anger is the self control men need to learn in Islam, NOTHING must be done in anger.  If you beat your wife it musn't be done in anger, just in a controlled firm manner, and when you say Talaaq is shouldn't be motivated by anger either.

    The onus might be on the women for cheating, but for anger it is on the men.

    How would you beat someone if you weren't angry? Why would you divorce if you weren't angry with your wife? That makes no sense :S I can understand if you meant 'heat of the moment' type of anger though but do you have anything to back this up with? Considering the hadith I posted earlier anger does not seem to be a problem in Islam unless I'm mistaken... :S

    That last sentence is nonsensical. The responsibility should be on both.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #33 - December 16, 2008, 05:12 PM


    How would you beat someone if you weren't angry? Why would you divorce if you weren't angry with your wife? That makes no sense :S I can understand if you meant 'heat of the moment' type of anger though but do you have anything to back this up with? Considering the hadith I posted earlier anger does not seem to be a problem in Islam unless I'm mistaken... :S

    That last sentence is nonsensical. The responsibility should be on both.


    No I don't have the stuff to back it up, I'm simply telling you what has been said to me before, if I thought it made sense I would still be a muslim and not running a forum for ex muslims.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #34 - December 16, 2008, 09:43 PM

    Reference from earlier: Bianquis, Thierry. ?The Family in Arab Islam.? In A History of the Family: Distant worlds, ancient worlds (Vol I), by Andre Burgiere, Christiane Klapisch-Zuber, Martine Segalen and Francoise Zancoland, 601-648. Cambridge: Polity Press, 1996.

    On ne naƮt pas femme, on le devient
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #35 - December 17, 2008, 06:27 AM



    Isn't it true that if a man divorces his wife, she must get married to another man who should 'taste her sweetness' before she can go back to her original husband?




    Yes, but the first husband has to have divorced his wife 3 times before she becomes that inaccessible for him.

    If he has only said Talaaq the once, he can take her back during a certain time period, once he has said it the third time (even if it is in one sitting, like "Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq") then she would have to remarry, and have sex, and be divorced, before husband number 1 could have her back.


    If he only says Talaaq once or twice, she is not at liberty to go off and get marrried to someone else, right? It only becomes a full divorce after the 3rd talaaq.



    If he's said the talaq once or twice, and her iddah is finished, then she is free to marry whoever she wants to. If her ex-husband wanted to marry her again, they would have to draw up a new contract.  She wouldn't have to marry him if she didn't want to in this case, unlike during her iddah where theoretically, she is supposed to go back to him.  After the iddah of the third talaq is completed, they are no longer allowed to marry, even with a new contract. Unless, of course, she marries someone else and has sex with him and then he divorces her or dies.  In which case, I guess, it's like she's all new and sparkly for husband #1. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #36 - December 17, 2008, 06:50 AM

    Ghazali or Sani (or anyone for this matter), can you locate the verse in which a man who divorces his wife then take her back has 40 days where he is not allowed to sleep with her? I can not locate the verse and I remember the Arabic version had a very insidious message, so I need to find it.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #37 - December 17, 2008, 09:20 AM


    How would you beat someone if you weren't angry? Why would you divorce if you weren't angry with your wife? That makes no sense :S I can understand if you meant 'heat of the moment' type of anger though but do you have anything to back this up with? Considering the hadith I posted earlier anger does not seem to be a problem in Islam unless I'm mistaken... :S

    That last sentence is nonsensical. The responsibility should be on both.


    No I don't have the stuff to back it up, I'm simply telling you what has been said to me before, if I thought it made sense I would still be a muslim and not running a forum for ex muslims.  Tongue

    Ah fair enough.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #38 - December 17, 2008, 09:23 AM

    Why would you divorce if you weren't angry with your wife? That makes no sense

    Could be you're just not into her, not compatable...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #39 - December 17, 2008, 10:58 AM

    Ghazali or Sani (or anyone for this matter), can you locate the verse in which a man who divorces his wife then take her back has 40 days where he is not allowed to sleep with her? I can not locate the verse and I remember the Arabic version had a very insidious message, so I need to find it.


    Can't recollect that one but will try and research. However things are hectic at the moment. After work I've gotta be going off to hospital to visit my mother who had a liver operation on Monday (cancer).

    Don't get back home till after ten and usually too tired. But will have a look when I get a chance.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #40 - December 17, 2008, 11:11 AM

    Ghazali or Sani (or anyone for this matter), can you locate the verse in which a man who divorces his wife then take her back has 40 days where he is not allowed to sleep with her? I can not locate the verse and I remember the Arabic version had a very insidious message, so I need to find it.


    This one?

    Quote from: Hilali/Khan rendering of Al-Baqarah 2:228
    وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ

    And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses, etc.) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect, etc.) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #41 - December 17, 2008, 09:28 PM

    Ghazali or Sani (or anyone for this matter), can you locate the verse in which a man who divorces his wife then take her back has 40 days where he is not allowed to sleep with her? I can not locate the verse and I remember the Arabic version had a very insidious message, so I need to find it.


    This one?

    Quote from: Hilali/Khan rendering of Al-Baqarah 2:228
    وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ

    And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses, etc.) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect, etc.) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.



    This One is close but this One is a prohibition for women, I want the One for men. This One also allows the man to take back the divorced woman, but only if she is pregnant.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #42 - December 18, 2008, 03:26 AM

    Ghazali or Sani (or anyone for this matter), can you locate the verse in which a man who divorces his wife then take her back has 40 days where he is not allowed to sleep with her? I can not locate the verse and I remember the Arabic version had a very insidious message, so I need to find it.




    65.2?
    Quote
    So when they have reached their prescribed time, then retain them with kindness or separate them with kindness, and call to witness two men of justice from among you, and give upright testimony for Allah. With that is admonished he who believes in Allah and the latter day; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will make for him an outlet,


    65.6?
    Quote
    Lodge them where you lodge according to your means, and do not injure them in order that you may straiten them; and if they are pregnant, spend on them until they lay down their burden; then if they suckle for you, give them their recompense and enjoin one another among you to do good; and if you disagree, another (woman) shall suckle for him.

    take the kid after a divorce!

    2:232-233?
    Quote
    And when you have divorced women and they have ended-- their term (of waiting), then do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree among themselves in a lawful manner; with this is admonished he among you who believes in Allah and the last day, this is more profitable and purer for you; and Allah knows while you do not know.

    And the mothers should suckle their children for two whole years for him who desires to make complete the time of suckling; and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity; neither shall a mother be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor a father on account of his child, and a similar duty (devolves) on the (father's) heir, but if both desire weaning by mutual consent and counsel, there is no blame on them, and if you wish to engage a wet-nurse for your children, there is no blame on you so long as you pay what you promised for according to usage; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah and know that Allah sees what you do.

    After 2 years, dump the b!tch and strip her of everything she has (including an infant)!

    4:19?
    Quote
    O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them m order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.

    If you want the mahr back just accuse her of adultery! I guess the ease of finding such witnesses depends on how sweet the mahr is.

    Alright someone's gonna have to explain this last one to me 58:2-4:

    Quote
    (As for) those of you who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers, they are not their mothers; their mothers are no others than those who gave them birth; and most surely they utter a hateful word and a falsehood and most surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

    And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a captive before they touch each other; to that you are admonished (to conform); and Allah is Aware of what you do.

    But whoever has not the means, let him fast for two months successively before they touch each other; then as for him who is not able, let him feed sixty needy ones; that is in order that you may have faith in Allah and His Messenger, and these are Allah's limits, and the unbelievers shall have a painful punishment.


    So ummmm yeah.... WHAT does that mean?! Well whatever it means....good news! You can free a slave (and get another one I guess), fast or feed 60 needy peeps. This insult or whatever seems serious!
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #43 - December 18, 2008, 07:23 AM

    Quote
    (As for) those of you who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers,


    So ummmm yeah.... WHAT does that mean?! Well whatever it means....good news! You can free a slave (and get another one I guess), fast or feed 60 needy peeps. This insult or whatever seems serious!

    The Arabs used to tell their wives that they were forbidden to them like their mother's ass (or as we would say, a nun's ass) when they were mad at them and didn't want to do them.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #44 - December 18, 2008, 09:38 AM

    The Arabs used to tell their wives that they were forbidden to them like their mother's ass (or as we would say, a nun's ass) when they were mad at them and didn't want to do them.


    Yes Awais that is correct. But if I can just elaborate. When the Arabs said 'likening to the back' of someone, usually mother or sister, it meant a curse to the wife to inform her she was to the husband what an improper part of a close relative would be to him.

    Before Muhammad, a man stating this would actually effect a full divorce. However Muhammad did relax this ruling making it into a temporary prohibition for which an atonement could be made, eg freeing a slave, fasting or feeding the poor.

    This injunction came about when Khaulah, the daughter of Sa'labah pleaded her case with Muhammad because she had been divorced by her husband (Aus ibn as-Samit) who likened her to the back of his mother.

    He therefore revealed these verses indicating that the wife is not the husband's mother and that it was hateful and a falsehood. Though it still counted as a temporary seperation he allowed the avenue of atonement.

    So in a way Muhammad did improve the situation for women when compared to what existed at that time and place.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #45 - December 19, 2008, 05:23 PM

    awais and a.ghazali: Thank you very much for the information! Its very helpful. At least now the verse doesn't sound completely stupid lol. Sorry I took awhile to reply I got caught up and forgot *goes to sit in the naughty corner*

    hehe

    PS:I'm adding you to my list of 'knowledgeable people I can annoy for stuff' I hope you don't mind? oh good!
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #46 - December 21, 2008, 06:22 PM


    It doesn't really teach you self-control though, everyone makes mistakes. What if they really both want to get back together? She should not have to prostitute herself because of her ex-husband in order to remarry.


    You need to take that up with Mo.  Tongue

    Quote
    Also, since when did Islam teach men self-control? They place the burden on the women by asking her to cover up her beauty because obviously men are animals and leap on any women if they see an inch of cleavage...


    Actually anger is the self control men need to learn in Islam, NOTHING must be done in anger.  If you beat your wife it musn't be done in anger, just in a controlled firm manner, and when you say Talaaq is shouldn't be motivated by anger either.

    The onus might be on the women for cheating, but for anger it is on the men.

    How would you beat someone if you weren't angry?

    The worst abusers will hit someone when they are not angry. Sadists will hit someone when they are not angry. Torturers (by profession) will hit someone when they are not angry. Cops. Just to name a few I can just think of,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #47 - December 22, 2008, 01:34 PM


    It doesn't really teach you self-control though, everyone makes mistakes. What if they really both want to get back together? She should not have to prostitute herself because of her ex-husband in order to remarry.


    You need to take that up with Mo.  Tongue

    Quote
    Also, since when did Islam teach men self-control? They place the burden on the women by asking her to cover up her beauty because obviously men are animals and leap on any women if they see an inch of cleavage...


    Actually anger is the self control men need to learn in Islam, NOTHING must be done in anger.  If you beat your wife it musn't be done in anger, just in a controlled firm manner, and when you say Talaaq is shouldn't be motivated by anger either.

    The onus might be on the women for cheating, but for anger it is on the men.

    How would you beat someone if you weren't angry?

    The worst abusers will hit someone when they are not angry. Sadists will hit someone when they are not angry. Torturers (by profession) will hit someone when they are not angry. Cops. Just to name a few I can just think of,


    Fair enough. That's even worse though, poor women.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #48 - March 06, 2012, 05:19 PM

    Hmm, another angle on the 'why does the woman need to have another husband before she can be accepted back by him' may be that it's a way to force the woman to shame herself and shift the focus of blame on to her. Look at that woman I divorced she then has married another man and after that I STILL TAKE HER BACK, how merciful is her husband to do that. A form of punishing the woman.


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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