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 Topic: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?

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  • Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     OP - January 01, 2009, 10:32 AM
    Watch this and tell me what you think as ex Muslims? Is he right about mainstream Islam, in your experience are there a lot of good peaceful Muslims who are hoping that the draconian rule of Islam will conquer the world through dawah and big families or is this just a scary fantasy?

    I agree with Sam that it is dangerous to be too liberal and willing to understand people who are undercover cultural imperialists and supporters of the fundamentalists aims. Even if they don't support the indiscriminate violent strategy of Bin Laden they want to see Islamic/Arabic culture come to supremacy through legitimate military conquest or sheer weight of numbers.

    I dislike people who demonise Muslims but I think Sam Harris is being open and honest. What do you think?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuuKItF_xJo
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #1 - January 01, 2009, 11:14 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 01, 2009, 10:32 AM
    in your experience are there a lot of good peaceful Muslims who are hoping that the draconian rule of Islam will conquer the world through dawah and big families or is this just a scary fantasy?



    In all honesty I think they prefer to not think about it at all.  They have this fantasy that once Islam takes over (through dawah and Islamic prophecy) the world will no longer have any issues, it will be this peaceful uptopian society.  They don't really want to associate Saudi, Iran, Afghanistan etc with the end result of Islams rule.

    They barely think about the end result except in this idealistic fantasy that is vaguely at the back of their mind.

    I don't think there are many muslims out there who don't believe the world will one day be completely Islamic, since Islam tells them this will be the case.  Some will use force to get there, some will use dawah to get there, but no one I knew was using the breeding way to get there.  When they had kids it was just because they had kids, not because it was a step towards any goal.

    I doubt they are even totally aware of what sharia law consists of, except maybe the harsh punishments like cutting off the hands of a thief, which sort of made sense back when I was a muslim.

    I was subjected to extreme punishments if I did wrong, so the idea of extreme punishment for theft seemed fair, which I know it isn;t, but you'd be surprised how many muslims think that way too.

    To them it's not draconian, it is a gift that will creat paradise on earth.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #2 - January 01, 2009, 11:23 AM
    What she said  Smiley

    In my experience most muslims do hope that Islam will spread over the world some day, and they believe that once that happens there will be peace, justice and prosperity for all. Its just a pipe dream though, in that they wouldnt do anything to make it happen, not violence and certainly not overbreeding! Most muslims are just too busy living their lives to make the global ummah their mission.
    Also, as Berberella said, they do genuinely believe that Islam is the perfect solution for humanity. Its not so much hatred of Western values, or envy, just in the way that  all of us look at the world and see things that are wrong, injustice, pollution, corruption etc and wish there was a way to change it, well they think Islam is that way.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #3 - January 01, 2009, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 01, 2009, 11:14 AM

    I don't think there are many muslims out there who don't believe the world will one day be completely Islamic, since Islam tells them this will be the case.  ...but no one I knew was using the breeding way to get there.

    I know a few, who base it off the hadith (I forget the wording of it) about Muhammad wanting to have the largest Ummah standing behind him compared to the rest of the messengers on Yowm al-Qiyaamah (Day of Resurrection/Judgment, lit. "Standing"). And also for muslim children to outnumber kaafir children. Cheesy
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #4 - January 01, 2009, 11:53 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 01, 2009, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 01, 2009, 11:14 AM

    I don't think there are many muslims out there who don't believe the world will one day be completely Islamic, since Islam tells them this will be the case.  ...but no one I knew was using the breeding way to get there.

    I know a few, who base it off the hadith (I forget the wording of it) about Muhammad wanting to have the largest Ummah standing behind him compared to the rest of the messengers on Yowm al-Qiyaamah (Day of Resurrection/Judgment, lit. "Standing"). And also for muslim children to outnumber kaafir children. Cheesy


    This one?

    From Sahih Muslim

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Book 001, Number 0381:
    Anas b. Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I would be the first among people to intercede in the Paradise and amongst the apostles I would have the largest following (on the Day of Resurrection).

    Sounds more like a prediction than a desire but it might explain why numbers of followers seem to be relatively important to some muslims.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #5 - January 02, 2009, 04:40 AM
    There was another one with different wording that encourage muslims to have alot of kids, I can't remember it, maybe I'll ask him.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2009, 05:52 AM
    There's plenty in the hadith about maximising one's progeny:

    The illustrious Shaikh Muhammad Bin Saaleh al-'Uthaymeen discusses this and his spiritual kindred Muhammad al-Munajjid concurs.

    The Prophet is alleged to have deemed it virtuous to refrain from begging if one has spawned a large brood (Muslim and Ahmed) and, according to everyone's favourite purveyor of second-hand information (Bukhari), once prayed that Anas ibn Malik be blessed with a gang of kids and cash.

    Allah however appears to take a different tac, warning that wealth and children are a trial (8:28) and that to Allah is the best of goals (3:14).
    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #7 - January 02, 2009, 07:14 AM
    You got it abdalwali. Brother with the citations, good on ya.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #8 - January 02, 2009, 07:15 AM
    The average muslim thinks the koran is a very good book.

    The average muslim thinks the koran is a very good book but the rulers are not good.

    The  average muslim thinks once the 'real koran' is properly understood, the world will be a better place.

    The average muslim thinks he has very little knowledge about the entirety of the islamic sharia.

    The average muslim actually knows most of what the sharia is about. But the average muslim always think there is more (much much more) to it then what he just knows.

    The average muslim is teetering on a convoluted form of Pascal's wager, it goes like this: If allah is real, the world will become islamic, if he is not real, then allah will lose. (This is a very subtle wager that most muslims will never admit in open conversation or even to themselves. I only noticed it based on their conversations with me)

    The average muslim is very happy (ecstatic) when he sees his leaders and religious leaders made fools of. When they stutter. When they fail to answer.

    The average muslim will support islam but is weary about bringing his political rulers with him to the West.

    The average muslim will be happy to bring his religious leaders (his real rulers) with him to the West. (In the mosque, in the madrassa, etc..)

    The average muslim is programmed to believe that making a lot of children is the most important thing. Unfortunately, having a lot of children, happens to trump having 'good children'. At least in modern society where 'preparing' kids takes a lot more effort then back in the days where kids were just useful farming tools.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #9 - January 02, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Well regardless of the hadiths, I personally never knew a muslim who had children whilst thinking "need another baby to help spread Islam".  Infact most of the muslims I knew don't want lots of kids.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #10 - January 02, 2009, 07:19 AM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 07:15 AM


    The average muslim is programmed to believe that making a lot of children is the most important thing. Unfortunately, having a lot of children, happens to trump having 'good children'.



    Maybe in your world, not in mine though.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #11 - January 02, 2009, 07:29 AM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 07:15 AM
    The average muslim is programmed to believe that making a lot of children is the most important thing. Unfortunately, having a lot of children, happens to trump having 'good children'.

    Got any reliable studies that would back those assertions of yours?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #12 - January 02, 2009, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 02, 2009, 07:29 AM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 07:15 AM
    The average muslim is programmed to believe that making a lot of children is the most important thing. Unfortunately, having a lot of children, happens to trump having 'good children'.

    Got any reliable studies that would back those assertions of yours?

    I don't know about the 'good children' bit but I would think that it was fairly uncontroversial to assert that, looking at the muslim world as a whole, the average muslim believes that it is important to have alot of children.  Certainly when I lived in Bangladesh and Afghanistan, the norm was to have lots of children - especially boys.

    Of course, it may be that this is due primarily to cultural or economic factors rather than Islam.

    I think I did a graph of population growth and percentage of population who are muslim in European countries in 2005/6.  Here it is:



    (sorry it's so small)
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #13 - January 02, 2009, 09:53 AM
    Quote
    Of course, it may be that this is due primarily to cultural or economic factors rather than Islam.


    That's how I would see it, since the large families I know from morocco are only large in part because contraception is relatively a new thing over there.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #14 - January 02, 2009, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Well regardless of the hadiths, I personally never knew a muslim who had children whilst thinking "need another baby to help spread Islam".  Infact most of the muslims I knew don't want lots of kids.


    "Programmed to Think":

    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.

    I did not say the average muslims "thinks" this way: more kids is better.
    I said the average muslim is "programmed to think" this way: more kids is better.

    Of course in the Catholic case, we now have a virus that in many areas is now killing more adults then it is creating babies. So it will take a little time for the religion to catch up and reprogram its faithful.

    But for now the reality is, most christians against condoms & abortions, managed to convince themselves that they are on some altruistic mission to preserve life. And also sometimes the christian programming goes wrong in other ways, when some christians will go and try to preserve the lives of people from other religions as well.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #15 - January 02, 2009, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Well regardless of the hadiths, I personally never knew a muslim who had children whilst thinking "need another baby to help spread Islam".  Infact most of the muslims I knew don't want lots of kids.


    "Programmed to Think":

    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.

    I did not say the average muslims "thinks" this way: more kids is better.
    I said the average muslim is "programmed to think" this way: more kids is better.

    Of course in the Catholic case, we now have a virus that in many areas is now killing more adults then it is creating babies. So it will take a little time for the religion to catch up and reprogram its faithful.

    But for now the reality is, most christians against condoms & abortions, managed to convince themselves that they are on some altruistic mission to preserve life. And also sometimes the christian programming goes wrong in other ways, when some christians will go and try to preserve the lives of people from other religions as well.



    Ah, that makes alot of sense actually.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2009, 03:22 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 02, 2009, 07:29 AM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 07:15 AM
    The average muslim is programmed to believe that making a lot of children is the most important thing. Unfortunately, having a lot of children, happens to trump having 'good children'.

    Got any reliable studies that would back those assertions of yours?

    Reliable studies from the middle east are next to non-existant in all aspects of their lives, including rape and infectuous deceases that in some cases infect 25-75% of a population.

    However, whenever a mehamedian government (as opposed to the even fewer islamic governments) tries to implement some form of birth control or birth quotas, they are denounced by the theocrats and the population is always automatically siding with the theocrats.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2009, 04:55 PM
    I disagree Baal, I worked as a GP in a government clinic in an Arabian Gulf country for several months, and there was a very strong focus on birth control and on educating the women about the benefits of controlling the number of children they had and on different methods of contraception. Several times a year we would hold talks during the evening and invite local women to come along, and the place was always packed. In fact we would book them into family planning clinics during their first postnatal checkup.
    Thinking back, as a student I spent two weeks in a remote village in the same (unnameable  Wink ) country, and the lady GP there actually took me with her when she went to a girls secondary school to talk to them about family planning. I remember she then sat and had a long conversation with the Wali of the village who was all for large families. He suggested to her that birth control may be unIslamic. Now she was quite a devout lady, and she managed to convince him that there was no proof that contraception was in any way wrong, and that in fact it was in the womens and family's best interests.

    I also seem to remember that national Aids statistics were freely available for anyone who was interested, but I would have to google that to confirm it.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #18 - January 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    Quote from: sparky
    I don't know about the 'good children' bit but I would think that it was fairly uncontroversial to assert that, looking at the muslim world as a whole, the average muslim believes that it is important to have alot of children.  Certainly when I lived in Bangladesh and Afghanistan, the norm was to have lots of children - especially boys.

    Our abominable PM, who's hailing from Islamic roots, advised the nation to have "at least three kids" some time ago. The reasons are pretty obvious. The additional offence is that the twat made this statement in Women's Day.

    http://www.kamilpasha.com/2008/03/11/pm-erdogans-womens-day-message-have-three-children/
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #19 - January 02, 2009, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: Iris on January 02, 2009, 04:55 PM
    I disagree Baal, I worked as a GP in a government clinic in an Arabian Gulf country for several months, and there was a very strong focus on birth control and on educating the women about the benefits of controlling the number of children they had and on different methods of contraception. Several times a year we would hold talks during the evening and invite local women to come along, and the place was always packed. In fact we would book them into family planning clinics during their first postnatal checkup.
    Thinking back, as a student I spent two weeks in a remote village in the same (unnameable  Wink ) country, and the lady GP there actually took me with her when she went to a girls secondary school to talk to them about family planning. I remember she then sat and had a long conversation with the Wali of the village who was all for large families. He suggested to her that birth control may be unIslamic. Now she was quite a devout lady, and she managed to convince him that there was no proof that contraception was in any way wrong, and that in fact it was in the womens and family's best interests.

    I also seem to remember that national Aids statistics were freely available for anyone who was interested, but I would have to google that to confirm it.


    Yeh I would definately say that modern muslim countries have moved forward on this issue, because contraception is more widely available than it once was.

    It's like when people say muslims will outbreed non muslims and take over the west that way, it's not true, I know alot of muslim women who choose to only have 2-3 kids these days, which is pretty average. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #20 - January 02, 2009, 07:09 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 09:53 AM
    Quote from: sparky
    Of course, it may be that this is due primarily to cultural or economic factors rather than Islam.


    That's how I would see it, since the large families I know from morocco are only large in part because contraception is relatively a new thing over there.

    The thing that caused me to question the influence of just education or economic factors was the discrepancy in population growth rates within the former Soviet Union.  In those countries, with a fairly standard government approach to development, education etc. I would have expected a fair degree of commonality among population growth rates.  But the relationship between the percentage of population who are muslim and the population growth rates remains very strong:
             % Muslim   Pop Growth
    Armenia      0      0.5
    Azerbaijan   93      1.3
    Belarus      5      -0.4
    Estonia      0      -0.5
    Georgia      10      -0.2
    Kazakhstan   47      0.7
    Kyrgyzstan   75      1.3
    Latvia      0      -0.8
    Lithuania      0      -0.2
    Moldova      0      0.2
    Russia      13      -0.5
    Tajikistan      90      2.0
    Turkmenistan   89      1.8
    Ukraine      0      -0.7
    Uzbekistan   88       1.6

    (I don't know why this doesn't line up like it does in the box)

    I find it hard to believe that Islam itself is not making a key difference here - even if it just to reinforce a cultural norm in which large families are seen as a better thing.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #21 - January 02, 2009, 07:12 PM
    Those are hardly examples of modern countries with all the modern trimmings like easy access to contraception, what's the population growth in saudi, north africa, UAE for example?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #22 - January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 02, 2009, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Well regardless of the hadiths, I personally never knew a muslim who had children whilst thinking "need another baby to help spread Islam".  Infact most of the muslims I knew don't want lots of kids.


    "Programmed to Think":

    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.

    I did not say the average muslims "thinks" this way: more kids is better.
    I said the average muslim is "programmed to think" this way: more kids is better.

    Of course in the Catholic case, we now have a virus that in many areas is now killing more adults then it is creating babies. So it will take a little time for the religion to catch up and reprogram its faithful.

    But for now the reality is, most christians against condoms & abortions, managed to convince themselves that they are on some altruistic mission to preserve life. And also sometimes the christian programming goes wrong in other ways, when some christians will go and try to preserve the lives of people from other religions as well.


    Ah, that makes alot of sense actually.


    No it doesn't.  It's a conspiracy theory approach to the decisions and choices people are making.  'While they think they are choosing for a good reason, they are actually choosing for a different reason that only I and those who 'programme' them really know.'
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #23 - January 02, 2009, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM

    No it doesn't.  It's a conspiracy theory approach to the decisions and choices people are making.  'While they think they are choosing for a good reason, they are actually choosing for a different reason that only I and those who 'programme' them really know.'


    It only doesn't make sense to you because Baal included Christianity for a comparison.  Wink
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #24 - January 02, 2009, 07:50 PM
    Quote
    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.


    sure,that?s why we have celibate priests, nuns and monks, and Paul?s admonition that celibacy is better than marriage.  Roll Eyes
    But don?t let facts stand in the way of your prejudices.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #25 - January 02, 2009, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 02, 2009, 07:50 PM
    Quote
    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.


    sure,that?s why we have celibate priests, nuns and monks, and Paul?s admonition that celibacy is better than marriage.  Roll Eyes
    But don?t let facts stand in the way of your prejudices.


    Isn't it something like "Go forth and multiply"?   Huh?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #26 - January 02, 2009, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 02, 2009, 07:50 PM
    Quote
    A muslim does not think he needs babies to spread islam, by as much as, Dio, who thinks that banning condoms & abortion is for preserving lives!! When in fact it is done for the purpose of giving Christianity the number advantage.


    sure,that?s why we have celibate priests, nuns and monks, and Paul?s admonition that celibacy is better than marriage.  Roll Eyes
    But don?t let facts stand in the way of your prejudices.


    Isn't it something like "Go forth and multiply"?   Huh?




    that is God?s message to Adam and Eve, i.e. ALL humans. Nothing to do with spreading any religion.

    oh, and btw - here?s another logical flaw in Baal?s argument - the condemnation of abortion and artificial contraception OF COURSE goes for ALL people, too - just like the church teaches "thou shalt not kill" regardless of religion, she teaches "don?t kill your child in utero" to all and sundry, NOT just catholics. To abort a baby is just as wrong for an atheist or moslem, as it is for a catholic. Whether the atheist or moslem listens to the churchs teaching on the matter is a different question.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #27 - January 02, 2009, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 07:12 PM
    Those are hardly examples of modern countries with all the modern trimmings like easy access to contraception, what's the population growth in saudi, north africa, UAE for example?

    The question was about 'the average muslim' and the significance of these countries is that they might be expected to have had a similar exposure to education, development and the availability to contraception - yet the population growth rates are remarkably different.

    Anyway, in answer to your question.  According to the world development report 2009, the average annual population growth rate for 2000-2007 was:

    Saudi - 2.3
    Egypt - 1.8
    Jordan - 2.5
    UAE - 4.2
    Morocco - 1.2
    Syria - 2.7
    Yemen - 3.0

    Any more?

  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #28 - January 02, 2009, 08:14 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM

    No it doesn't.  It's a conspiracy theory approach to the decisions and choices people are making.  'While they think they are choosing for a good reason, they are actually choosing for a different reason that only I and those who 'programme' them really know.'


    It only doesn't make sense to you because Baal included Christianity for a comparison.  Wink

    No, it doesn't make sense because the person who claims to know what other people are thinking better than they do themselves is most often talking rubbish.
  • Re: Sam Harris. Right or wrong?
     Reply #29 - January 02, 2009, 08:18 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 02, 2009, 08:09 PM


    that is God?s message to Adam and Eve, i.e. ALL humans. Nothing to do with spreading any religion.

    oh, and btw - here?s another logical flaw in Baal?s argument - the condemnation of abortion and artificial contraception OF COURSE goes for ALL people, too - just like the church teaches "thou shalt not kill" regardless of religion, she teaches "don?t kill your child in utero" to all and sundry, NOT just catholics. To abort a baby is just as wrong for an atheist or moslem, as it is for a catholic. Whether the atheist or moslem listens to the churchs teaching on the matter is a different question.


    Sorry, I must be thick or something, i don't get what being anti abortion has to do with Baals post.  wacko

    Quote from: sparky on January 02, 2009, 08:14 PM


    The question was about 'the average muslim' and the significance of these countries is that they might be expected to have had a similar exposure to education, development and the availability to contraception - yet the population growth rates are remarkably different.

    Anyway, in answer to your question.  According to the world development report 2009, the average annual population growth rate for 2000-2007 was:

    Saudi - 2.3
    Egypt - 1.8
    Jordan - 2.5
    UAE - 4.2
    Morocco - 1.2
    Syria - 2.7
    Yemen - 3.0

    Any more?




    No, none, I was genuinelly interested to know, I really didn't realise it was still so high compared to the western world.  wacko


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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