Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?

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Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
OP - January 02, 2009, 10:28 AM

Quote
I guess the moral of the story is this: when in doubt, you can always tell if a Muslim is truly moderate by their stance on Israel. Indeed, Israel has become the ultimate litmus test in that regard.

You can condemn bin Laden all day long. But if you refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, spew anti-Semitic rhetoric and apologize for mindless terrorism against Israel, you are anything but moderate - regardless of your business suit and university degree.

Source

What do you think?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #1 - January 02, 2009, 10:34 AM

Then I pass, but Israel ain't no innocent victim neither.

Quote
But if you

1. refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist,
2. spew anti-Semitic rhetoric and
3. apologize for mindless terrorism against Israel,

you are anything but moderate - regardless of your business suit and university degree.

Israel has the right to exist, but not to deny Palestine's either.

Jews are regular ass people who are all different, and not a homogenous block of evil beings bent on ruling the world and shit (just like Muslims, ).

Suicide bombing busses killing innocent men, women, and children and shooting rockets into neighborhoods is wrong; I even believed this when I was a fundamentalist mu'min. If you're going to fight Israel: go after military targets, dumbasses.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #2 - January 02, 2009, 10:59 AM

I resent the contention that refusing to believe in Israel's right to exist somehow makes you an immoderate Muslim. There are non-Muslims on both sides of the political spectrum who dispute Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. There are Orthodox Jews who don't believe in Israel's right to exist. It's not for this person to determine what constitutes a "moderate Muslim" whatever the fuck that is.

I can understand the Palestinian side because they are routinely terrorised, killed en masse, their houses bulldozed, and there does not seem to be a bright future for them. The argument for a democratic one-state solution is not inherently anti-Semitic if one's reasoning is that the land was stolen in 1948 and the Palestinians driven out.

While I don't give a rat's arse about the issue at all I can also understand the Israeli side because the 'Arabs' kicked all the 'Jews' out of their lands in the late 1940s. If I remember correctly, more than 50% of modern-day Israel consists of these refugees. They don't want a right to return to their countries of origin cause they've integrated, don't live in squalid refugee camps and are mostly doing quite nicely for themselves.

The situation is too complex and intractable; that's why I don't waste time thinking about it; but it is a good unifier for the ummah and there is penty of ugly anti-Semitism amongst Muslims. I'm not sure that it's more prevalent than in other sections of the community. Believe me, when I was a kid, the most vitriolic hatred of my white Australian classmates was towards Jews.

The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #3 - January 02, 2009, 11:04 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on January 02, 2009, 10:59 AM
Believe me, when I was a kid, the most vitriolic hatred of my white Australian classmates was towards Jews.

That's interesting, because I don't remember anything like that from when I was in school.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #4 - January 02, 2009, 11:06 AM

I think it was the school and the times (1980s). I won't say the name of the school

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #5 - January 02, 2009, 11:09 AM

Could have been.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #6 - January 02, 2009, 11:09 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on January 02, 2009, 11:06 AM
I think it was the school and the times (1980s). I won't say the name of the school

1980ies? Let me guess - all those jew-haters were wearing palestinian scarves and "give peace a chance" buttons?
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #7 - January 02, 2009, 11:12 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on January 02, 2009, 10:59 AM
I resent the contention that refusing to believe in Israel's right to exist somehow makes you an immoderate Muslim. There are non-Muslims on both sides of the political spectrum who dispute Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. There are Orthodox Jews who don't believe in Israel's right to exist. It's not for this person to determine what constitutes a "moderate Muslim" whatever the fuck that is.

Completely agree. It's no kind of 'litmus test'. And what the hell does 'moderate' mean anyway? I myself am not even a muslim and I wouldn't pass this so-called litmus test, nor would many jewish and arab activists who want a bi-national state in Palestine and 'apologise' for 'mindless' Palestinian terrorism - it is terrorism, but don't expect anything else from people who only have crap rockets to fight with, it'll unfortunately continue until there is a political settlement and no more Israeli state-terrorism like the barbaric collective punishment of the people of Gaza. Those who are siding with the Israeli state in those actions and apoligising for it are as bad, if not worse, than muslims who support hamas, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: awais
That would be ideal, but I don't see that ever happening.

Is it more or less likely than anything other than a ghetto-state, though? That is what I see as the crux of it.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #8 - January 02, 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on January 02, 2009, 10:59 AM
The argument for a democratic one-state solution is not inherently anti-Semitic if one's reasoning is that the land was stolen in 1948 and the Palestinians driven out.

That would be ideal, but I don't see that ever happening.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #9 - January 02, 2009, 11:25 AM

Quote from: diotima on January 02, 2009, 11:09 AM

1980ies? Let me guess - all those jew-haters were wearing palestinian scarves and "give peace a chance" buttons?

Er...not quite; and come to think of it I have heard some anti-Jewish comments at my work place as well.

I don't think Muslims can use the stolen land argument in Australia though as they live on usurped land themselves.

Quote
Volume 3, Book 43, Number 632:

Narrated Said bin Zaid:

Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever usurps the land of somebody unjustly, his neck will be encircled with it down the seven earths (on the Day of Resurrection). "

Quote
Narrated Curtis Mayfield:

If there's a Hell below we're all gonna go.

To their credit the Muslims who did visit Australia pre-1778 didn't attempt to take over.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #10 - January 02, 2009, 11:27 AM

It wont happen while Hamas and groups like them are a significant factor. That's for sure.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #11 - January 02, 2009, 04:57 PM

Quote from: panoptic
Completely agree. It's no kind of 'litmus test'. And what the hell does 'moderate' mean anyway? I myself am not even a muslim and I wouldn't pass this so-called litmus test, nor would many jewish and arab activists who want a bi-national state in Palestine and 'apologise' for 'mindless' Palestinian terrorism - it is terrorism, but don't expect anything else from people who only have crap rockets to fight with, it'll unfortunately continue until there is a political settlement and no more Israeli state-terrorism like the barbaric collective punishment of the people of Gaza. Those who are siding with the Israeli state in those actions and apoligising for it are as bad, if not worse, than muslims who support hamas, as far as I'm concerned.

The barbaric "collective punishment" has much to do with the blind, stubborn rejection of Israel by Arab states. Israel has been open to peace talks for most of its history. And a bi-national state wouldn't work anyway, you cannot expect people who hate each other to live together harmoniously. The way I see it, the only valid solution is the creation of an independent Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank.

Everyone expects Israel to adhere to standards not once applied to other regimes worldwide. It seems that Jews, no matter how much they were exiled and mass-murdered in the past, cannot acquire the right to exist under their own national sovereignty. It is treated as an unspeakable sin, a morbid taboo. And even though nationalism is still well and thriving under different guises and in different forms even in the "developed" countries, it seems that Jewish nationalism is the worst product of history, because of which all of mankind suffers... as if the only concern of the human race is the welfare of the peaceful, tolerant, heroic and poor Palestinians. When the perpetrator is the malevolent Jew, acts which are considered errors in other regimes suddenly become demonic crimes.

Israel is disproportionately condemned worlwide, and of course it has everything to do with global anti-Jewish sentiment and the delusions of the far Left, the far Right, and Islamists. The current stalemate in Gaza/West Bank has everything to do with the absurd, genocidal stance of Hamas and its benefactors. (One is tempted to say, malefactors.) Nobody can assume that Israel has been innocent, but you cannot seek innocence in the midst of warfare and a harsh, anti-Semitic atmosphere where murdering Jews is not only considered pragmatically good, but desirable and pleasing to Allah.

The communist folks are suspiciously silent about their own atrocities like Mao's cultural revolution, Pol Pot's omnicide, the Holodomor, the gulag archipelago, and other hammer-and-sickle attractions. These "revolutions" boast tens of millions of victims, as opposed to Israel's alleged crimes against humanity. But of course, socialists want nothing but equality and freedom, whereas evil Zionists only exist to be crushed beneath the heels of Marxist saviour-hordes.

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #12 - January 02, 2009, 07:06 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 10:28 AM
Quote
I guess the moral of the story is this: when in doubt, you can always tell if a Muslim is truly moderate by their stance on Israel. Indeed, Israel has become the ultimate litmus test in that regard.

You can condemn bin Laden all day long. But if you refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, spew anti-Semitic rhetoric and apologize for mindless terrorism against Israel, you are anything but moderate - regardless of your business suit and university degree.

Source

What do you think?

I fail the test.
Maybe I must be a muslim, extremist, and a terrorist?
Maybe millions of Christians and Athiests who think Israeli's are thieves, terrorists and muderers, must be secret muslims, extremist, and terrorists, as well?
They are jihadi 'sleeper' cells?

As far as condemning Bin Laden is concerned, I fail on that test as well.
Where is the proof?
The Taliban were willing to hand him over, if proof was provided.
USA failed to even attempt to do that.
Instead they launched their crusade.
After all these years the CIA provided a tape of him, supposedly admitting it.
The guy on the tape doesn't even look like him, never mind admitting it.
If you have seen/read the proof, can you point it out to me?

Atm, CIA, Bush & cronies, with the availlable 'proofs', are looking more guilty in the eyes of hundreds of millions of non-muslims.
Are all these people muslims, terrorists, or extremists, as well?
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #13 - January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote from: Kamran
Maybe millions of Christians and Athiests who think Israeli's are thieves, terrorists and muderers, must be secret muslims, extremist, and terrorists, as well?

No, they are just bigots in their own right. It would be absurd to assume that all the bigots on this planet are Muslims, indeed there is overwhelming evidence against such an assumption. The history of Judeophobia begins inside Christendom.

Quote from: Kamran
Atm, CIA, Bush & cronies, with the availlable 'proofs'

Yes, modern history is nothing a conflict between the evil American empire and the noble, heroic, self-sacrificing anti-imperialists and Islamists who are definitely not reactionary and stupid.

Quote from: Kamran
The guy on the tape doesn't even look like him, never mind admitting it.

Yes yes, of course. By the way, 9/11 was an inside job, wasn't it? Look look, I have the proof, too!

http://atmoz.org/img/devilface.jpg

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #14 - January 02, 2009, 08:09 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM
Quote from: Kamran
Maybe millions of Christians and Athiests who think Israeli's are thieves, terrorists and muderers, must be secret muslims, extremist, and terrorists, as well?

No, they are just bigots in their own right. It would be absurd to assume that all the bigots on this planet are Muslims, indeed there is overwhelming evidence against such an assumption. The history of Judeophobia begins inside Christendom.

I'm glad some people know that badness is in all of us, irrespective of race or religion.
Calling other people something or them calling you something doesn't make it so.

Quote from: Zaephon on January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM
Quote from: Kamran
Atm, CIA, Bush & cronies, with the availlable 'proofs'

Yes, modern history is nothing a conflict between the evil American empire and the noble, heroic, self-sacrificing anti-imperialists and Islamists who are definitely not reactionary and stupid.

As mentioned above, no one has a monopoly on being noble, heroic, or self-sacrificing.
We are human, capable of the most kindest deed and the most evil act, depending on our circumstance.

Quote from: Zaephon on January 02, 2009, 07:34 PM
Quote from: Kamran
The guy on the tape doesn't even look like him, never mind admitting it.

Yes yes, of course. By the way, 9/11 was an inside job, wasn't it? Look look, I have the proof, too!

http://atmoz.org/img/devilface.jpg

Resort to ridicule, when you are stuck. Good tactic. I learnt it years ago.
The picture is your 'proof'? That did it for you?
I need a little more than that.
I have no proof either ways. What's most likely from what we do know?
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #15 - January 02, 2009, 08:39 PM

A litmus test can only give clear answers and conclusion. Is this Acidic (Ph below 7) or is this Basic (Ph above 7).

In the case of Palestine, we have a healthy portion of non-muslims who are opposed to israel. So why should we expect the muslim to be against israel or else he is not a moderate? Damnit, I was against israel till my early twenties and I was against islam since I was a teenager.

For a healthy decade, I was both against islam and against israel.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #16 - January 02, 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote from: Kamran
Resort to ridicule, when you are stuck. Good tactic. I learnt it years ago.

Sorry, but there are very few shades of grey between blaming the CIA for everything and claiming that ZOG controls planet Earth. For me, all would-be eschatologues belong to the same intellectual caste. You have made hypocritical and irrational comments, so I've made a satirical remark. It's the law of the jungle, you see.

Quote from: Kamran
What's most likely from what we do know?

That there is no global and well-planned conspiracy, that such conspiracy theories only furnish some delusional and stupid circles with some kind of raison d'?tre.

Quote from: Kamran
I'm glad some people know that badness is in all of us, irrespective of race or religion.

You may like to share this revelation with that particular Jihadist who, according to your perspective, does not exist at all --he is just an American fabrication. But of course, we all know that there is no spoon.

PS: Muslim bigots blame Jews/Zionists for all their mishaps quite frequently. Have you ever been attacked by tolerant, heroic, anti-imperialist Muslims because you do not support the righteous cause of our Muslim brothers? I have been. Such is the sad story of Islamic tolerance and free speech.

Quote from: Kamran
Maybe millions of Christians and Athiests who think Israeli's are thieves, terrorists and muderers, must be secret muslims, extremist, and terrorists, as well?

Quote from: Kamran
I'm glad some people know that badness is in all of us, irrespective of race or religion.

Why the hypocrisy? So, let me see --according to you, badness is in all of us, irrespective of race and religion, but somehow Israelis are so exceptionally wicked that they are thieves, terrorists, and murderers?

Quote from: Baal
For a healthy decade, I was both against islam and against israel.

I have to agree. Moderation is a difficult concept, and it shouldn't be indexed to a single political issue. I would include anti-Semitic vitriol amongst the obvious symptoms of fanaticism, though.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #17 - January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM

Quote
blaming the CIA for everything and claiming that ZOG controls planet Earth.

Where have I blamed the CIA for everything? 9/11? Yes.
Where have I claimed that ZOG controls planet Earth?
But since you mentioned it ... Would they like to? Yes. (human nature).
Would the Muslims like to? Yes. (human nature).

Quote
You have made hypocritical and irrational comments

Not at all. I can call someone a thief, terrorist and muderer, without mentioning the retaliatory sins of the victim.
That does not mean that I think the victims sins can be ignored. I am not writing a essay.
I am a slow writer. At the appropriate time and topic I have plenty of negative things to say about them.

Quote
That there is no global and well-planned conspiracy

So, CIA, Bush & cronies = Global? ..... Did I say that? USA doesn't rule the world atm. Would they like to? Yes.
Well planned? .... Did I say that? ..... It was a complete botch-up. Hoped that bias and human nature will carry it through.
People like you have helped a lot. It's worked, but for how long?
What makes you so sure? Did you get secret info delivered to you, whilst sitting in your armchair?
I base my judgement on reading what's availlable on the net.

Quote
You may like to share this revelation with that particular Jihadist who, according to your perspective, does not exist at all

Did I say that? They exist. And are just as fucked-up as your ZOG & Company friends.

Quote
Why the hypocrisy? So, let me see --according to you, badness is in all of us, irrespective of race and religion, but somehow Israelis are so exceptionally wicked that they are thieves, terrorists, and murderers?

There is no hypocracy. I did not know that I had to mention every little detail about my standing/thoughts in the one post.

Reading your post you seem to be wandering all over the place. Putting words in my mouth, and jumping to conclusions.
I may be to blame, since I'm a do'er in life, not a talker type.
If you've had some bad experiences, I can understand your vitriol, but please direct it at the one's who made you this way.

If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about 9/11.
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #18 - January 02, 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote from: Kamran
Where have I blamed the CIA for everything? 9/11? Yes.

I find it difficult to take a 9/11 conspiracist seriously, but things are getting better and better as you post. I get a feeling that I'm chatting with Melody again, which is of course not improbable.

Quote from: Kamran
Not at all. I can call someone a thief, terrorist and muderer, without mentioning the retaliatory sins of the victim.

Wtf? You mentioned hypocritically that human evil is universal and that no single group can monopolise goor or evil, then you called Israelis thieves, liars, and murderers. You have managed to contradict yourself in no more than two posts. Of course you are a hypocrite.

Quote from: Kamran
your ZOG & Company friends.

Quote from: Kamran
People like you have helped a lot.

You are truly delusional, so in your twisted imagination I am a ZOG puppet? Are we all CIA agents, too? Or the Illuminati? Or shapeshifting aliens? Well, if you think shapeshifting aliens ruling Earth is absurd, try to understand the great contempt I have for your illusions.

Quote from: Kamran
There is no hypocracy

You mean "hypocrisy." Hypocracy would mean something like "government of horses" in ancient Greek.

Quote from: Kamran
If you've had some bad experiences, I can understand your vitriol, but please direct it at the one's who made you this way.

Well, look who's speaking about "vitriol." Thanks for proving my theory that the self-righteous critiques of Israel are, more often than not, vitriolic anti-Semites. You've posted a link to a "white nationalist" website which quotes David Duke at its frontpage, how much more pathetic can you become?

Quote from: Kamran
I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

You should try better indeed. Delusional people like you can travel extreme distances to reconcile their illusions with real life. In your case, in your desperate attempts to justify your violent and absurd anti-Semitic fantasy, you have provided a link to a revisionist and white supremacist website. What is next? Are you going to talk about the "Holohoax" or will you claim it was just a Zionist trick for the creation of ZOG?

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #19 - January 03, 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

What the hell is this bullshit? Are you serious? This is crap. What are you trying to prove by posting this?

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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #20 - January 03, 2009, 01:08 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on January 03, 2009, 09:41 AM
Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

What the hell is this bullshit? Are you serious? This is crap. What are you trying to prove by posting this?

He's trying to prove that Jews were expelled because of their innate evil, by providing links to a white nationalist website whereupon he expects readers to suddenly accept his theology of hate. He is either an incarnation of Melody, or a new buffoon.

So, while we were all defending that Muslim moderation and Israel's right to exist are separate topics, a Muslim poster proves the exact opposite of our hypotheses by referring to conspiracy theories and posting links to a Stormfront mirror. People who have a pathological hostility towards Israel somehow attract each other, even if they have completely different political motives and perspectives, i.e. white supremacists and Islamists.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #21 - January 03, 2009, 01:40 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on January 03, 2009, 01:08 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on January 03, 2009, 09:41 AM
Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

What the hell is this bullshit? Are you serious? This is crap. What are you trying to prove by posting this?

He's trying to prove that Jews were expelled because of their innate evil, by providing links to a white nationalist website whereupon he expects readers to suddenly accept his theology of hate. He is either an incarnation of Melody, or a new buffoon.

So, while we were all defending that Muslim moderation and Israel's right to exist are separate topics, a Muslim poster proves the exact opposite of our hypotheses by referring to conspiracy theories and posting links to a Stormfront mirror. People who have a pathological hostility towards Israel somehow attract each other, even if they have completely different political motives and perspectives, i.e. white supremacists and Islamists.

Kamran isn't a muslim I thought?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #22 - January 03, 2009, 01:58 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 01:40 PM
Kamran isn't a muslim I thought?

Well, I'll stand corrected then, but it's still a minor point really. The main argument is still there, and there's an issue which I've already reported, will you do something about it?

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #23 - January 03, 2009, 02:03 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on January 03, 2009, 01:58 PM
Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 01:40 PM
Kamran isn't a muslim I thought?

Well, I'll stand corrected then, but it's still a minor point really. The main argument is still there, and there's an issue which I've already reported, will you do something about it?

Well we won't remove the link, Os has already responded:

Quote from: osmanthus on January 03, 2009, 09:41 AM
Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

What the hell is this bullshit? Are you serious? This is crap. What are you trying to prove by posting this?

So it has been dealt with. Better to confront his need to use it.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #24 - January 03, 2009, 02:10 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on January 03, 2009, 09:41 AM
Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you get the chance, read everthing about muslim bastards ... then read everything about how and why Jews have been systematically expelled by europeans from everywhere for centuries.

I couldn't find a better link atm, I'll try later.
<link removed>

What the hell is this bullshit? Are you serious? This is crap. What are you trying to prove by posting this?

What part of it is bullshit, and crap, and hell?
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #25 - January 03, 2009, 02:13 PM

Quote from: kamran on January 03, 2009, 02:10 PM
What part of it is bullshit, and crap, and hell?

What part of it is not bullshit, and crap, and hell?

Quote from: BerberElla
Well we won't remove the link, Os has already responded:

That's not the issue. I'll PM you.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #26 - January 03, 2009, 02:18 PM

Panoptic
Quote
Completely agree. It's no kind of 'litmus test'. And what the hell does 'moderate' mean anyway? I myself am not even a muslim and I wouldn't pass this so-called litmus test

You are not a moderate Panoptic, you are a dogmatic communist who thinks that the West needs a violent revolution to bring about your Orwellian nightmare.

Israel is now established, you can argue whether or not it should have been established but now it exists it is a legitimate country and only a genocide could reverse that.

If you would like to see the destruction of Israel you are an extremist who is encouraging genocide.

By the way Israel is more legitimate as a state than Palestine because it exists as a democratic state and Palestine has only historically ever been part of other peoples territory.

I hope the Palestinians get a viable state of their own and live in peace but they need to stop supporting terrorism, fundamentalist Islam and genocidal antisemites or Israel will carry on defending itself to the innocent Palestinians cost.
- Zaephon
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #27 - January 03, 2009, 02:23 PM

Quote from: brucepig
By the way Israel is more legitimate as a state than Palestine because it exists as a democratic state and Palestine has only historically ever been part of other peoples territory.

As long as people exist there is legitimacy, so I think they're both equally legitimate.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
- diotima
- Pub Regular
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #28 - January 03, 2009, 02:25 PM

peoples aren?t states. so-called palestinians, i.e. arabs living in a certain area, certainly exist - they never had a state of their own, though.
- kamran
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Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
Reply #29 - January 03, 2009, 02:40 PM

Quote
He is either an incarnation of Melody, or a new buffoon.

Question to moderators:
This guy is attacking me rather than my views.
Am I free to call him the son of a cocksucking whore?
Since you haven't pulled him up on it, I assume it's ok ?
The trouble with forums is that any two-bit SOB, can be rude to anyone.

Quote
He's trying to prove that Jews were expelled because of their innate evil

How do you know what I'm trying to prove? Again jumping to conclusions.
Immigrants in the UK are hard working people. They are well off. If there was a time of war, right circumstances, mass hysteria, I can see them being targetted and expulsed.
The USA rounded up all American Japanese when Pearl Harbour was attacked.

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providing links to a white nationalist website

Sorry, I didn't know it was a 'white nationalist site'. Are you sure?
White nationalists can't fabricate history. Would you like me to search for other sites regarding Jewish expulsion history?

Quote
conspiracy theories

Who carried out the 9/11 attack has not been proved.
If it has been proved, please provide me links.
Until you do, isn't that a conspiracy theory?
How can you reject one theory against another?
Is it just your 'gut' feeling?
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