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 Topic: I have a theory about ex-muslims...

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  • I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     OP - January 02, 2009, 03:07 PM
    This may set the cat amongst the pidgeons, so please feel free to correct me if you disagree and think it is a pile of nonsense.

    Given that we have an array of terms to define the different type of Muslims there are  (e.g. Wahabi, Apologist etc), I wonder if we can do the same with ex-muslims? 

    It enables us to group the different schools of thoughts together, and become more empathetic towards each others point of view, so I have based this around a members primary reasons for becoming an apostate.

    I am fairly new so could be wrong, but from the discussions on this forum, I see 3 distinct groups have emerged (terms do need redefining, and perhaps expanding):

    i)   Poor role model converter - an apostate who has been subject to Muslims (e.g. family, peers, Bin Laden etc) who have left a poor and lasting impression on them. 

    ii)  Opportunistic converter - one who has become an apostate as the religion does not permit them to do what they want to do.  Examples include drinking alcohol, having sex outside marriage, marrying a non-Muslim,   etc.

    iii)  Ideological converter  - somebody who finds the underlying principles behind Islam are fundamentally flawed

    To some extent they may be all causal and interlinked, but I fit into one of these brackets when looking at the "closest fit", and explains my current attitude towards Islam.  Others with different points of view may belong to another group and have a different attitude to Islam e.g. if they belong to (i) they may be more prone to criticising Muslims per se, and less the Quran itself.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #1 - January 02, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Which one are you?
    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #2 - January 02, 2009, 03:35 PM
    I find that it is usually muslims who try to cornhole their apostates into little well defined boxes. And they are very good at it.

    The islamic world lives very ambiguous lives, nothing is well defined or demonstrated correctly. Yet when it comes to apostates, the entire islamic umma suddenly become scientists of the highest caliber, collecting and cataloguing everything there is to know about this elusive perversion of nature that is an apostate.

    If they prove the apostate is opportunistic, then clearly he/she just wanted 'the sex', and drink 'the alcohol', and eat 'the pork'. Clearly they left islam because they are weak and degenerate.

    Or maybe the murtad saw some bad muslims, so clearly there is some personal and unique bad experiences, which does not reflect the totality of the great deen.

    Or perhaps those apostates are ideological, so they fell for the lies and traps and toolboxes of those evil evil missionaries allah curses them and the jinn.

    But the reality is, no one, will ever apostate lightly (for just One reason), from a religion with an exit death-clause.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #3 - January 02, 2009, 03:37 PM
    And where would you put people who think the problem is 'belief' itself?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #4 - January 02, 2009, 04:05 PM
    1) Don't believe in it
    or,
    2) Don't like it
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #5 - January 02, 2009, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 02, 2009, 04:05 PM
    1) Don't believe in it



    Meaning?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2009, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 02, 2009, 04:07 PM
    Meaning?


    Lack of belief.

    'I do not believe this to be true.'
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #7 - January 02, 2009, 04:25 PM
    Baal - I am an ex-muslim.  I know what you are getting at, but we are all grouped under boxes in one shape or form for all sorts of reasons. 

    It is how we make sense of the data and the conclusions that we draw, that can be open to criticism e.g. I see no problem with drawing broad conclusions from broad sets of data, it is when we draw specific and definitive conclusions from such data (i.e. one solution fits all) is where we humans can sometimes go wrong.

    Sojourne - without knowing what you mean precisely by those ?who think the problem is 'belief' itself?  , I would put this under category 3 as it appears, on the face of it, to be ideological reasoning

    Animation ? I would put myself in category 3, how about you?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #8 - January 02, 2009, 04:33 PM
    I agree with Baal  , its not that simple. Our reasons for leaving are more complex than that and its harder to pigeonhole us. If I were to categorise myself, I would like to say its three but if Im brutally honest there was definitely an element of 2. and maybe even 1. Does that make my reasons less valid? Although I do see what you are saying, that our reasons affect our attitude towards Islam and Muslims.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #9 - January 02, 2009, 04:39 PM
    Quote

    Animation ? I would put myself in category 3, how about you?



    I hate all religion, tradition, tribal crap, black magic and spirituality. In a nut shell all made up stuff
    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #10 - January 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    All 3 catagories fit me quite well.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #11 - January 02, 2009, 05:07 PM
    That's because they're not good categories.

    edit: I am now bold enough to have two.  Smiley
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #12 - January 02, 2009, 05:14 PM
    I would say mine was a progression from type 1, to type 3 and then type 2.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #13 - January 02, 2009, 05:14 PM
    Actually maybe I devalue number 2 more than I should, because the hijab was hated by me and I longed not to need to wear it.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #14 - January 02, 2009, 05:31 PM
    A mixture of all three, with the third option predominating.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #15 - January 02, 2009, 05:52 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 02, 2009, 04:12 PM
    Lack of belief.


    In one word: credulity.

    The conscious renunciation of a dogma is reducible to either value-judgement or truth-judgement.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2009, 07:11 PM
    I think Baal has made an absolutely brilliant post there, and I agree with him utterly.

    Muslims I've encountered tend to lump apostates into category 2. Funny, because I was a muslim when I did all that 'evil' shite like drinking alcohol and shagging and listening to raunchy songs. Yet I have now come to conclude that doing so ISN'T actually bad - and I've still yet to have guilt-free sex Cry
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2009, 08:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2009, 04:25 PM
    Baal - I am an ex-muslim.  I know what you are getting at, but we are all grouped under boxes in one shape or form for all sorts of reasons. 

    It is how we make sense of the data and the conclusions that we draw, that can be open to criticism e.g. I see no problem with drawing broad conclusions from broad sets of data, it is when we draw specific and definitive conclusions from such data (i.e. one solution fits all) is where we humans can sometimes go wrong.

    I do not want to come across that I am completely opposed to the classification of apostates. You being a reasonable person, still want to classify and categorize your surroundings. I am just not clear yet if such a classification will be useful or whether it will be better used by muslims dogging against their apostates.

    Maybe it is a good thing, maybe when an apostate comes clean that he left islam because he hated praying 5 times a day and wearing hijab and perhaps likes pork more then he likes muhammad and the sahaba. Maybe then, this apostate will make a strong point and that muslims will not be able to insinuate against him.

    i.e. Imran: I left islam because I do not like to pray five times a day, you got a problem with that Mustapha?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #18 - January 03, 2009, 09:14 AM
    Baal - Understanding who we are, and why we believe what we do, is something that we do not need to shy away from, even if it does present uncomfortable conclusions and ammunition for those against us.  Most of them wont be reading this site anyway, the Quran will probably be more appealing.

    For example it may help us in understanding why I, or we, are so different from 99% of those born Muslim, and that still are.  

    I would like to think rather arrogantly that I have a better understanding of the world than all of those Muslims, but sadly I have come across many Muslims with far superior knowledge than my own.  Once we realise what these factors were, we may be in a better position to explain ourselves to others who cannot understand the conclusions we were drawn to, and why.

    So far it looks like most of us are a combination of all 3, which does not help in drawing any conclusions.  Maybe I should just start another thread and go one step back and simply ask that very question - what made us think so differently yet remain such a minority, when to most of us it is such an obvious conclusion.  
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #19 - January 03, 2009, 10:29 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 03, 2009, 09:14 AM
    Maybe I should just start another thread and go one step back and simply ask that very question - what made us think so differently yet remain such a minority, when to most of us it is such an obvious conclusion.  


    I suspect that you are not in such a minority as you may believe even though it may feel that way.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #20 - January 03, 2009, 01:58 PM
    I felt defensive initially IsLame because you hit a nerve  Smiley Deep inside I'm never quite sure whether the reasons I left were fully ideological or whether I had baser motives. I havent made a full indepth study of Islam and I'm certainly neither particularly intelligent nor particularly ethical or principled, certainly not more so than my still-Muslim brothers for example. I always had doubts and thought it would be more intellectually honest and more neutral to start from agnosticism rather than start out as a Muslim and read up on Islam in order to confirm my pre-existing belief system.
    But underneath all that veneer of respectability, there was definitely a strong element of curiosity, of wanting to try all the forbidden things, and of frustration with my dry and restrained life. And more than that, I felt constrained and I hated it, I still hate being tied down in any way and Islam felt like a straitjacket. So it was an urge for freedom both intellectual and physical.  I still consider those poorer reasons, at least for myself, i wouldnt presume to judge anyone else. You might say whats wrong with a little hedonism? Well nothing, so long as you are not hurting anyone, but if I am basing my life and my choices on hedonism then that's just not good enough, not for me anyway.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #21 - January 28, 2011, 06:35 AM
    As an ex-Muslim I'd definitely place myself in category number three. Sure I experienced ill treatment from some fellow Muslims but that's not what caused me to leave. Simply but I stopped believing in the shahada and the basic elements of Islam(and all organized religion really).
    Quote from: billy on February 13, 2011, 02:13 PM
    "And lo, verily hath they spoken, not one of this tribe, upon whom these entreaties were beseeched for the Lord, could giveth a shit."


    Read my blog here: http://dimunituvediva.wordpress.com/
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #22 - January 28, 2011, 09:35 AM
    i think i) and iii) in equal doses and then ii) not because I had any great desire to do the things permitted by islam but more objected to the option being taken away from me
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #23 - January 28, 2011, 09:47 AM
    started as I  with elements of III ended as III with elements of I, so i am both... Smiley
    Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #24 - January 28, 2011, 10:53 AM
    My experiences with Muslims were actually quite positive and I led the life I wanted to lead before I left Islam anyway so I would definetly fit into the third category. But beyond these categories I think there are those ex-muslims that want to do something about what they see around them, those who couldn't care less but just don't believe anymore and then you have those who just like talking about the different issues without wanting to get active and do something.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #25 - January 28, 2011, 03:52 PM
    iii) for me for sure. Islam didn't really stop me doing ii. Tongue
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
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  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #26 - January 28, 2011, 08:36 PM
    I don't expect many people to fit into ii at all. Religion doesn't stop people from breaking the rules, but breaking the rules can help people realise how stupid religion is. You don't leave a religion like Islam for petty reasons. I haven't noticed anyone on this forum who fits into that category. Moaning about Islam's silly rules and restrictions doesn't mean you left it for that reason. Plenty of muslims break Islam's rules and still remain muslim. However it takes brains and guts to make yourself question the idiocy of the rules you're breaking and a lot of strength to break away from the brainwashing. It's insulting to reduce ex-muslims to 3 simple categories, and particularly that second one. Most of us struggled hard to get to where we are. It's not fair to tell us we left because we just want to drink and shag.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #27 - January 28, 2011, 08:49 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on January 28, 2011, 08:36 PM
      It's not fair to tell us we left because we just want to drink and shag.


    Indeed!It seems to be an obsession with detractors.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #28 - January 28, 2011, 11:08 PM
    i was never number two..
    i only shook my head at number one.. but it didn't influence me.. i just summed people like that up to being bad musims..
    number three.. yep close enough.. add in there human rights, women issues, god existing in the first place issues.. all that good stuff..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
  • Re: I have a theory about ex-muslims...
     Reply #29 - January 29, 2011, 12:07 AM
    I am iii.

    Bacon (ii) was not an issue and I abrogated "no sex without marriage" by "Allah does not want hardship for me".

    i certainly made me think about iii.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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