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Theme Changer

 Topic: Humanism, the way forward?

 (Read 13634 times)
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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #30 - January 07, 2009, 06:11 PM

    Isn't it sad, when you have to state you level of education to prove to others how clever you think you are?


    isn?t it sad, when you have to post humanist sites to present definitons of philosophical terms? Wink
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #31 - January 07, 2009, 06:16 PM

    The humanist post was intended to present a definition of humanism, not the Golden Rule. 

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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #32 - January 07, 2009, 06:17 PM

    The humanist post was intended to present a definition of humanism, not the Golden Rule. 


    Not according to PS:
    Quote
    Diotima, this website has a good explanation of the rule-

  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #33 - January 07, 2009, 06:25 PM

    I can understand the relevance of having a philosophy degree, but why did you feel the need to tell us all you were a lawyer?

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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #34 - January 07, 2009, 06:31 PM

    I can understand the relevance of having a philosophy degree, but why did you feel the need to tell us all you were a lawyer?


    because the relationship between the golden rule and the law is an standing topic in legal philosophy.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #35 - January 07, 2009, 06:52 PM

    Sorry, I was not aware of that - in that case, I take back what I said

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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #36 - January 07, 2009, 08:49 PM


    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?


    If anybody has been on a business / improving sales / customer relations seminar in the last few years they will have heard the latest "improvement"  on the Golden Rule.

    Not just "treat others as YOU would wish to be treated"

    BUT  "treat others how THEY wish to be treated".

    I think these two rules , and the minor variations thereof , pretty much encapsulate the humanist stance and solve Peruvianskies problem above. 


    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #37 - January 08, 2009, 12:16 AM

    In cricketing terms, that would be a 6, Humanoid

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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #38 - January 08, 2009, 05:02 AM

    Well now's your chance to prove us wrong.

    Maybe it is there buried in the small print.

    Who knows?


    Hello Speaklow

    The principles of the golden rule are not in the small print at all, they are writ large within Islam.  There is a lot for me to respond to here, so hopefully my responses to the other posters will make that statement clear.  If not, please ask again.

  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #39 - January 08, 2009, 05:12 AM


    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?


    If anybody has been on a business / improving sales / customer relations seminar in the last few years they will have heard the latest "improvement"  on the Golden Rule.

    Not just "treat others as YOU would wish to be treated"

    BUT  "treat others how THEY wish to be treated".

    I think these two rules , and the minor variations thereof , pretty much encapsulate the humanist stance and solve Peruvianskies problem above. 


    Still broken, I am a car thief and I wish to be let go after i get caught. Or if we need to keep appearances, then I want a very light sentence.

    A few years ago i came up with a very tight definition but I guess I should have wrote it down.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #40 - January 08, 2009, 05:16 AM

    Well now's your chance to prove us wrong.

    Maybe it is there buried in the small print.

    Who knows?


    Hello Speaklow

    The principles of the golden rule are not in the small print at all, they are writ large within Islam.  There is a lot for me to respond to here, so hopefully my responses to the other posters will make that statement clear.  If not, please ask again.


    The possibility you speak of goldie is comforting. It is a very nice an innovative solution that you came up with when pressured. Maybe you will make a good lawyer.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #41 - January 08, 2009, 05:20 AM

    Goldie - It sounds to me that you have found solace in Islam, and am glad that you feel it makes you into a better human being. 


    I have found truth in Islam, and from that I find both solace and the incentive to be the best human being I can be.

    Quote
    I agree Islam contains many of these ethical principles, but also some unethical ones.  This proves to me that it was not put together by a supreme and infallible supernatural being.


    Islam contains the ethical principles, but people often subvert them into unethical shapes and practises.  You cannot say that Allah (swt) is wrong, or that he does not exist, just  because his perfect guidance is not followed properly. 

    The failings of human beings in implementing the message of Islam, is not proof of the untruth of Islam at all, it is proof of the fallibility of human nature.

    Quote
    There are many reasons why I dont believe Islam,  not just one or two, and hence too lengthy to go into here.  Will pm you directly.


    I have received your PMs. thank you.  You raise some interesting points, which I will respond to privately. 

    Smiley






  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #42 - January 08, 2009, 08:42 AM



    Still broken, I am a car thief and I wish to be let go after i get caught. Or if we need to keep appearances, then I want a very light sentence.

    A few years ago i came up with a very tight definition but I guess I should have wrote it down.


    Baal - think you caught his sixer on the edge of the field!



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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #43 - January 08, 2009, 10:29 AM

    Sparky - I understand what you are trying to say, but think you are looking at it from a traditional religious context.  As society has evolved into an ever more complex and dynamic place, some ideologies have also evolved to reflect that. 

    Contrary to most religions, it accepts that its tenets are not set in stone.  Its vagarities allow it to remain flexible, and to a certain extent encompass people from all walks of life - not just male, non-black, heterosexual monotheists.

    I dont know that much about it yet, but it does have a concept of good.  Instead of God, it sees society & self actualization (be interesting to know which one is above the other) at its core.  Yes, there are times when they could be in conflict with each other, you could argue that with the Christian Golden rule.  However at least this school of thought, gives you more room to make that choice.

    P.S the Humanist golden rule started with the word "aim"

    I think my arguments stand apart from the the religious context.  The problems with the golden rule stand whatever context you are talking about.

    The first, and most significant, problem is that there is no rational or logical basis for adhering to the golden rule.  It is a principle plucked out of thin air.  As a result, there is no argument than can be brought to bear that says that a person 'should' follow the golden rule without committing the naturalistic fallacy.  As an ethical principle, it is on a rational par with any other possible ethical principle - 'people should treat others however they feel is right', 'people should treat others so that as many survive as possible', 'people should treat others so that the human species continues for as long as possible', etc, etc...

    Because there is no evidential basis for 'believing in' the golden rule (or any other tennet of humanism), those who choose to call themselves humanists are guilty of the very blind faith that they say they reject in religions.

    The second problem is as I have said above, absented from it's Christian context, its meaning becomes vastly different.  The very ambiguity of goals (societal development and self-actualisation) that you have identified would result in different implications for the behaviour if you are following the golden rule.  In fact, I'm not sure you can retain self-actualisation as a goal and also have the golden rule as an ethical principle to follow.

    Throwing in fluffy terms like 'tolerance, compassion and consideration' just serve to confuse further.  If I believe in societal development as a goal then I am not going to tolerate the behaviour of criminals who act against that.  So why is 'tolerance' mentioned as a principle?

    I also think it is highly ironic that people who complain so much about religion should identify themselves with something that is so obviously 'religious'.  Apart from the blind faith discussed above, it seems to have many of the institutional trappings of religion as well. 

    You have the centralised structure:

    Quote
    Founded in Amsterdam in 1952, International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) is the sole world umbrella organisation embracing Humanist, atheist, rationalist, secularist, skeptic, laique, ethical cultural, freethought and similar organisations world-wide.


    Evangelism:
    Quote
    Our primary task is to make human beings aware in the simplest terms of what Humanism can mean to them and what it commits them to.


    Hubris:
    Quote
    By utilising free inquiry, the power of science and creative imagination for the furtherance of peace and in the service of compassion, we have confidence that we have the means to solve the problems that confront us all.


    You even have sectarianism:
    Quote
    This Board calls on all humanist individuals and organisations to be tolerant of each other's conceptions of humanism; and in particular, where ideas of other groups are within the basic statement on humanism, it calls on humanists to refrain from implying that these ideas are not truly humanism.


    It is no surprise that the original Amsterdam declaration said:
    Quote
    Ethical humanism is thus a faith that answers the challenge of our times.


    All from http://www.iheu.org
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #44 - January 08, 2009, 11:10 AM

    Quote
    Because there is no evidential basis for 'believing in' the golden rule (or any other tennet of humanism), those who choose to call themselves humanists are guilty of the very blind faith that they say they reject in religions.


    What an enormous amount of hogwash!

    There is a lot of evidence - its called evolution!  There is plenty of evidence that humans have evolved with a sense of society ie human's have learnt to live and cooperate with other humans and so the golden rule is just one expression of the humanistic urge to live in cooperation with other humans.
    There is no blind faith at all
    Its your blind faith that has blinded you to the obvious.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #45 - January 08, 2009, 11:58 AM

    Quote

    Because there is no evidential basis for 'believing in' the golden rule (or any other tennet of humanism), those who choose to call themselves humanists are guilty of the very blind faith that they say they reject in religions.

    What an enormous amount of hogwash!

    There is a lot of evidence - its called evolution!  There is plenty of evidence that humans have evolved with a sense of society ie human's have learnt to live and cooperate with other humans and so the golden rule is just one expression of the humanistic urge to live in cooperation with other humans.
    There is no blind faith at all
    Its your blind faith that has blinded you to the obvious.

    Which is exactly the naturalistic fallacy - taking an 'is' and making it a 'should'.  Among human behaviour which is all the result of evolution we find fighting, rape, oppression etc, etc.  Why shouldn't these be taken as the guide for our behaviour as much as 'the urge to live in cooperation'?  Your choice of one in the absence of any evidence supporting it, is indeed blind faith.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #46 - January 08, 2009, 12:33 PM

    Which is exactly the naturalistic fallacy - taking an 'is' and making it a 'should'.  Among human behaviour which is all the result of evolution we find fighting, rape, oppression etc, etc.  Why shouldn't these be taken as the guide for our behaviour as much as 'the urge to live in cooperation'?  Your choice of one in the absence of any evidence supporting it, is indeed blind faith.

    Because of our evolution? We have evolved to the point where people are emotionally damaged by being raped, oppressed, etc. Morality itself is no longer a good basis for rules as it is relative which is why we have introduced the concept of human rights.

    The golden rule is followed by those who believe this is they way they should live their own life. It is not imposed on anyone. I like the idea behind the golden rules and it is something I have always felt is right whilst growing up as it seems hypocritical of me not to respect the rights of others that I want to be respected of me. However no one is forced to follow this philosophy. it is only a general guideline.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #47 - January 08, 2009, 12:52 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #48 - January 08, 2009, 01:33 PM

    Ziaz and sparky, I have cleaned up your quotes.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #49 - January 08, 2009, 01:53 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    A reason not to commit the acts is simply due to human empathy. If you damage someone there will be fury from others who feel empathetic towards that person and they will want justice to be done unless they see a rational reason for the act. This is what the concept of morality is based on.

    There is no absolute reason for you not to commit those acts but in certain societies people will want justice, hence why we have the law.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #50 - January 08, 2009, 02:01 PM

    This is what this arguement feels like >>>>

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #51 - January 08, 2009, 02:02 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    A reason not to commit the acts is simply due to human empathy. If you damage someone there will be fury from others who feel empathetic towards that person and they will want justice to be done unless they see a rational reason for the act. This is what the concept of morality is based on.

    There is no absolute reason for you not to commit those acts but in certain societies people will want justice, hence why we have the law.


    you keep mixing up things, PS. justice is as vague as can be...
    Empathy is not a philosphical category - again, it?s simply a fact, an emotion, and not even present in all human beings.
    You DO say one right thing, though "there is no absolute reason etc". True - hence the claim by religious folks (AND many if not all moral philosophers, whether religious or not), that there is no intersubjective ground for morality at all, outside the religious sphere... it all comes down to decisions based on subjective preferences.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #52 - January 08, 2009, 02:03 PM

    This is what this arguement feels like >>>> (Clicky for piccy!)


    that?s philosphy for ya.  cool2
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #53 - January 08, 2009, 02:05 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    A reason not to commit the acts is simply due to human empathy. If you damage someone there will be fury from others who feel empathetic towards that person and they will want justice to be done unless they see a rational reason for the act. This is what the concept of morality is based on.

    There is no absolute reason for you not to commit those acts but in certain societies people will want justice, hence why we have the law.


    you keep mixing up things, PS. justice is as vague as can be...
    Empathy is not a philosphical category - again, it?s simply a fact, an emotion, and not even present in all human beings.
    You DO say one right thing, though "there is no absolute reason etc". True - hence the claim by religious folks (AND many if not all moral philosophers, whether religious or not), that there is no intersubjective ground for morality at all, outside the religious sphere... it all comes down to decisions based on subjective preferences.

    Why is religion any more valid for morality? All religion does is threaten you with hell if you don't follow God's opinion on morality, on Earth you are threatened with prison. What's the difference?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #54 - January 08, 2009, 02:06 PM

    This is what this arguement feels like >>>> (Clicky for piccy!)

    Bloody nihilism and philosophy...
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #55 - January 08, 2009, 02:10 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    A reason not to commit the acts is simply due to human empathy. If you damage someone there will be fury from others who feel empathetic towards that person and they will want justice to be done unless they see a rational reason for the act. This is what the concept of morality is based on.

    There is no absolute reason for you not to commit those acts but in certain societies people will want justice, hence why we have the law.


    you keep mixing up things, PS. justice is as vague as can be...
    Empathy is not a philosphical category - again, it?s simply a fact, an emotion, and not even present in all human beings.
    You DO say one right thing, though "there is no absolute reason etc". True - hence the claim by religious folks (AND many if not all moral philosophers, whether religious or not), that there is no intersubjective ground for morality at all, outside the religious sphere... it all comes down to decisions based on subjective preferences.

    Why is religion any more valid for morality? All religion does is threaten you with hell if you don't follow God's opinion on morality, on Earth you are threatened with prison. What's the difference?


    Again, you misunderstand. Religion DOES give an absolute, intersubjective reason for morality - God, the ultimate reality.
    And the religion, that bases it?s morality on fear of punishment is at a very childish, unevolved level of religiosity - and morals.(cf. Kohlberg`s seven stages of moral development).
     As Kant put it - only motivation decides on the moral value of an act - I only act MORALLY, when I act for the sake of the act, NOT the sake of rewards or punishment. We should do good for the sake of doing good - it?s a reward in itself, just like doing bad ultimately brings it?s own punishment. You can?t buy/work your way into heaven with a black heart.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #56 - January 08, 2009, 02:39 PM

    I don't doubt you could become an even better person if you follow Chrisitianity, or even Islam, from a Humanistic perspective.  The addition of God, at the top of the societal & self actualization pyramid, as all seeing, objective evaluator, is certainly an additional motivator. 

    The goodies from heaven,  along with the fear of burning in hell for eternity can sometimes bring out the best in people. 

    Shame the religion themselves could not do that. 

    Shame he doesn't exist.

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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #57 - January 08, 2009, 02:39 PM

    Again, you misunderstand. Religion DOES give an absolute, intersubjective reason for morality - God, the ultimate reality.
    And the religion, that bases it?s morality on fear of punishment is at a very childish, unevolved level of religiosity - and morals.(cf. Kohlberg`s seven stages of moral development).
     As Kant put it - only motivation decides on the moral value of an act - I only act MORALLY, when I act for the sake of the act, NOT the sake of rewards or punishment. We should do good for the sake of doing good - it?s a reward in itself, just like doing bad ultimately brings it?s own punishment. You can?t buy/work your way into heaven with a black heart.

    Most religions threaten with punishment (hell) if their laws are not followed. This is why I feel hell and prison provide the same basis for following morality.

    Most people tend to act morally due to reward/punishment. There is no other motivation for it. Kant seems to be contradicting himself though in the bit I have highlighted, he's being moral for a reward when previously he stated morality should not be pursued due to some reward. Feeling good about a deed still counts as a reward.

    In religion the reward/punishment concept is quite prevalent. Hell if you're bad, heaven if you're good. This is the motivator for religion.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #58 - January 08, 2009, 02:40 PM

    Again, you misunderstand. Religion DOES give an absolute, intersubjective reason for morality - God, the ultimate reality.
    And the religion, that bases it?s morality on fear of punishment is at a very childish, unevolved level of religiosity - and morals.(cf. Kohlberg`s seven stages of moral development).
     As Kant put it - only motivation decides on the moral value of an act - I only act MORALLY, when I act for the sake of the act, NOT the sake of rewards or punishment. We should do good for the sake of doing good - it?s a reward in itself, just like doing bad ultimately brings it?s own punishment. You can?t buy/work your way into heaven with a black heart.

    Most religions threaten with punishment (hell) if their laws are not followed. This is why I feel hell and prison provide the same basis for following morality.

    Even if religion assumes these morals are absolute people will always disagree with certain parts which still makes our morality relative, but it provides a guideline on what morals should be accepted and not accepted. The law does the same thing however, only difference is it is not constructed by some 'divine' being.

    Most people tend to act morally due to reward/punishment. There is no other motivation for it. Kant seems to be contradicting himself though in the bit I have highlighted, he's being moral for a reward when previously he stated morality should not be pursued due to some reward. Feeling good about a deed still counts as a reward.


    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #59 - January 08, 2009, 02:43 PM

    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.
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