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 Topic: Islam has made me an atheist

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam has made me an atheist
     OP - January 07, 2009, 08:31 PM

    Douglas Murray says that he stopped being an Anglican after analysing Muslim texts and deciding that no book ? of any religion ? could claim infallibility

    Read his story here.
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3194231/studying-islam-has-made-me-an-atheist.thtml
    Monday, 29th December 2008


    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #1 - January 07, 2009, 08:55 PM

    I can see that happening more often.

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #2 - January 07, 2009, 09:12 PM

    I can see that happening more often.


    I can too.

    I think the more the 'debate about Islam' takes place the more people of other faiths cannot help but to see the same faults they find in Islam, within their own religion.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #3 - January 07, 2009, 09:15 PM

    Islam's drive for dominance will create an army of atheists and I think as Wafa Sultan predeicted in her famous YouTube montage, Islam will be the loser.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #4 - January 07, 2009, 09:20 PM

    I suspect all religions will suffer loss in adherents, though none of them will disappear.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #5 - January 07, 2009, 09:21 PM

    By the way animation_guy, good job on picking up on that article.

    Actually the comments left by the readers were pretty good as well, although I'm not too familiar with the whole Anglican side of things.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #6 - January 07, 2009, 09:25 PM

    I suspect all religions will suffer loss in adherents, though none of them will disappear.


    You're right Hassan. I'm guessing all religions will take a real beating this century.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #7 - January 07, 2009, 09:28 PM

    It's a great article Animation Guy and I recommend others to click the link and read it - here is a small quote:

    "Many people hold on to belief as an unquestioned part of their make-up. They never have to confront the source of their belief, and as long as nothing actively pushes them into addressing it, they keep it as something which rarely does much harm and might actually do some good."

    I think that was me for a long time.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #8 - January 07, 2009, 09:33 PM

    Sorry I just have to quote this bit too:

    Some years ago I started studying Islam. It didn?t take long to recognise the problems of that religion?s texts ? the repetitions, contradictions and absurdities. Unlike Christianity, scholarship on these problems in Islam has barely begun. But they are manifest for anyone to see. For a holy book which in its opening lines boasts ?that is the book, wherein is no doubt?, plenty of doubt emerges. Not least in recognising demonstrable plagiarisms from the Torah and the Christian Bible. If God spoke through an archangel to one illiterate tradesman in 7th-century Arabia, then ? just for starters ? why was he stealing material? Or was he just repeating himself?

    Gradually, scepticism of the claims made by one religion was joined by scepticism of all such claims. Incredulity that anybody thought an archangel dictated a book to Mohammed produced a strange contradiction. I found myself still clinging to belief in Christianity. I was trying to believe ? though rarely arguing ? ?Well, your guy didn?t hear voices: but I know a man who did.? This last, shortest and sharpest, phase pulled down the whole thing. In the end Mohammed made me an atheist.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #9 - January 07, 2009, 09:38 PM

    I said the exact same thing in my story!

    the first thing that troubled me about leaving religion was fear of meaninglessness. Where would ethics come from? If nothing was revealed then surely everything would be relative ? and that way lay nihilism. As it happens, it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #10 - January 07, 2009, 10:07 PM

    *waits for Sparky to enter the thread carrying his crozier*

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #11 - January 08, 2009, 10:46 AM

    I like this bit the most:

    Quote
    Alexander Herzen asked, ?Where is the song before it is sung?? It is impossible to replace the belief in a deity?s plans for you. Though less comforting, it is simply observably truer that there is no song before you sing it ? no path before you tread it. You make the song as you sing it. You make the path as you tread it. It makes life more precarious, certainly ? but just as the risk of falling is greater, so, likewise, is the possibility of soaring.

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #12 - January 08, 2009, 11:36 AM

    *waits for Sparky to enter the thread carrying his crozier*

     Cheesy
    I had to look up crozier...

    But hey, it's not my experience.  The claims of Christianity are not parallel to the claims of Islam.  The divinity of Islam's text - as it currently exists - actually are central to its claims of truth - hence the 'Surah like it' claims and the current fad for claiming miraculous scientific knowledge.  The Christian view of the bible is not the same.  At the core is a claim by a bunch of people to have seen a miraculous event - not the claim of an individual to have heard God's voice.  Mohammed's claim stands alone because it contradicts the very early revelations that it claims to confirm.  The bible's claims come from multiple sources and can therefore be checked against each other.  In my reading of modern biblical scholarship, I've not found anything to be afraid of yet.

    But what interests me is what he says about morality and ethics which Hassan quoted above:
    Quote
    Even when I stopped believing I pretended I did, or said I did for a bit, for fear of the break in the dike. Like many people, the first thing that troubled me about leaving religion was fear of meaninglessness. Where would ethics come from? If nothing was revealed then surely everything would be relative ? and that way lay nihilism.


    which is followed by:

    Quote
    As it happens, it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.


    Which is not an answer.  I found the same thing on Hassan's blog.  It's a good question but saying 'ethics doesn't come from religion' isn't an answer to the question about where it does come from or whether it exists at all.

    It seems that he is continuing to blind himself to the problems with where he has landed and instead opts for some self-comforting language about making your own path and soaring... 

    Meaningless is the reality.  You can't 'create your own meaning' any more than you can make up your own definitions to words and have a sensible conversation.  Such an approach is the abandonment of the rational for a leap in the dark.  And you don't 'soar' when that happens.  You fall over and bang your head.  There is no path.  You aren't coming from somewhere any more than you are going somewhere.  This is nihilism.

    If this is the reality that you have heroically now embraced, why not call it like it is!
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #13 - January 08, 2009, 11:40 AM

    Yes thats a good quote heartbomb.

    I quite liked this one:
    Quote


    Anyone can be a bigot. But divine bigots must count as the most intractable ? the most infuriatingly impervious to reason. Besides ? to a bibliophile, indeed bibliomaniac ? the idea that there is any book ?wherein is no doubt? is insulting as well demonstrably untrue.

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #14 - January 08, 2009, 11:47 AM

    Hi Sparky,
    With regard to

    Quote
    Which is not an answer.  I found the same thing on Hassan's blog.  It's a good question but saying 'ethics doesn't come from religion' isn't an answer to the question about where it does come from or whether it exists at all.


    I disagree - this is an answer to the question 'do ethics come from religion?'  Most religious people I know would say their ethics do come from their religions or religious texts.
    As I've pointed out in another thread - ethics come from human evolution - these are traits both genetic as well as cultural that humans have come to see as being the best way for a society to survive and florish.  There is absolutely no need to invoke a superbeing that 'tells' us what our ethics should be.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #15 - January 08, 2009, 11:57 AM

    Meaningless is the reality.  You can't 'create your own meaning' any more than you can make up your own definitions to words and have a sensible conversation.  Such an approach is the abandonment of the rational for a leap in the dark.  And you don't 'soar' when that happens.  You fall over and bang your head.  There is no path.  You aren't coming from somewhere any more than you are going somewhere.  This is nihilism.

    If this is the reality that you have heroically now embraced, why not call it like it is!

    Because that's pathetic? You have 4 general options in life-

    1- Belief in God/religion
    2- Nihilism
    3- Enjoy life
    4- Commit suicide

    As an atheist if you want to enjoy life then morality is a convenience. It is something that evolved with us and helps maintain a stable society. However even if you don't like morality the law will still be there.

    Your other option is to spend your life moping that it has no meaning. Why it even needs some ultimate meaning is beyond me. Personally I find God's existence makes life far more worthless.

    There are people who want to enjoy life and I don't see why they cannot create their own meaning or why that has any less validity then some God.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #16 - January 08, 2009, 12:09 PM

    Quote
    Quote
    Hi Sparky,
    With regard to

    Which is not an answer.  I found the same thing on Hassan's blog.  It's a good question but saying 'ethics doesn't come from religion' isn't an answer to the question about where it does come from or whether it exists at all.

    I disagree - this is an answer to the question 'do ethics come from religion?'  Most religious people I know would say their ethics do come from their religions or religious texts.
    As I've pointed out in another thread - ethics come from human evolution - these are traits both genetic as well as cultural that humans have come to see as being the best way for a society to survive and florish.  There is absolutely no need to invoke a superbeing that 'tells' us what our ethics should be.

    'Do ethics come from religion?' is not the question he was asking in the paragraph before.  It was 'Where would ethics come from? If nothing was revealed then surely everything would be relative ? and that way lay nihilism.'

    His honest answers should be 'nowhere, they don't exist', 'yes, everything is relative' and 'yes, the truth is nihilism'.  But he can't bring himself to say this and instead, as most atheists do, satisfies himself with criticising religion and fluffy language.  It's self-deception - on a par with the 'divine bigots'.

    And ethics do not come from human evolution.  Human behaviour comes from human evolution.  If you want to call some behaviour 'good' or 'right' then you need to provide evidence.

    Appealing to 'majority opinion' doesn't achieve that.  'Humans have come to see' is a load of rubbish because it depends on which humans you ask at which times.  Societies have and are 'flourishing' on vastly different ethical standards and who said this should be the goal for individual human behaviour anyway?  If you want to talk about evolution, at least stick to the survival of my genes as the goal rather than randomly introducing your own preferences.

    And 'tu quoque' statements about religion or God, don't achieve that either.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #17 - January 08, 2009, 01:37 PM

    Sparky and Ziaz, I have cleaned up your quotes..........again Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #18 - January 08, 2009, 03:16 PM

    Meaningless is the reality.  You can't 'create your own meaning' any more than you can make up your own definitions to words and have a sensible conversation.  Such an approach is the abandonment of the rational for a leap in the dark.  And you don't 'soar' when that happens.  You fall over and bang your head.  There is no path.  You aren't coming from somewhere any more than you are going somewhere.  This is nihilism.

    If this is the reality that you have heroically now embraced, why not call it like it is!

    Because that's pathetic? You have 4 general options in life-

    1- Belief in God/religion
    2- Nihilism
    3- Enjoy life
    4- Commit suicide

    As an atheist if you want to enjoy life then morality is a convenience. It is something that evolved with us and helps maintain a stable society. However even if you don't like morality the law will still be there.

    Your other option is to spend your life moping that it has no meaning. Why it even needs some ultimate meaning is beyond me. Personally I find God's existence makes life far more worthless.

    There are people who want to enjoy life and I don't see why they cannot create their own meaning or why that has any less validity then some God.

    How can reality be pathetic?  Reality is reality!  If reality is that nihilism is true then it's not an option, it's reality!  Say it like it is!

    Again and again, we hear how brave atheists think they are for not 'needing' God or not 'needing' holy books or not 'needing' belief in an afterlife or not 'needing' real meaning.  And its the religious who are 'pathetic' with their attempts to cling to their fantasies.

    And here you are, making up fantasies ('creating meaning!') to 'enjoy your life'.

    Again with the 'morality evolved'!  No, again, behaviour evolved.  If you want to say that morality (that some behaviours are right and some are wrong) exists, you need to provide evidence.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #19 - January 08, 2009, 04:25 PM

    I suspect all religions will suffer loss in adherents, though none of them will disappear.


    You're right Hassan. I'm guessing all religions will take a real beating this century.


    .. but before they do, sadly, we are going to go through a phase of even more terrorism first

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  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #20 - January 08, 2009, 04:35 PM

    Our dear sparky keeps repeating the argument from objective ethics by divine revelation like a mantra. Will he ever realize that his ethics are based on subjective perception like anybody else's ethics are? I don't think so Cheesy. Oh, I forgot he has "evidence" for what he believes to be true. Of course, Muslims don't have "evidence" to think their book is the absolute criterion for morality.

    Personally, I don't think anybody can prove their morality. You can only list the reasons and the basis for your ethics, but ideas of morality are not provable themselves. Morality ultimately rests on the principles and rules a person has been taught or which are innate in almost all people (maybe similar to 1+1=2). It also depends on the social intelligence of a person, because some acts don't have immediate consequences. Nobody needs to prove that harming others is immoral. Though, when somebody beats you up, you naturally want to seek revenge. Instead of acting vigilante, most people would act upon the civil, social rule to call the police and have the felon arrested. Intelligent enough ppl know that this a good way to resolve conflicts and seek justice.

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  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #21 - January 08, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Sparky, I still don't understand how a Christian makes a moral judgement about something.

    I know you refused to answer my question about homosexuality last time - I really don't know why, because that is a very real issue where I find myself having to make a judgement about a moral issue.

    Is it right or wrong?

    When I was a Muslim I would have said it was wrong - and I would have taken the Qur'an and Hadith as my guide.

    Now I don't say it is wrong and I simply use my conscience/best judgement to come to that decision.

    What I want to know is your answer - as a Christian - to the question of whether homosexuality is right or wrong?

    And how do you know that?
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #22 - January 08, 2009, 04:57 PM

    Good question, and one that should be put to each and every literal Christian on this site

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  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #23 - January 08, 2009, 06:10 PM

    Quote
    His honest answers should be 'nowhere, they don't exist', 'yes, everything is relative' and 'yes, the truth is nihilism'.  But he can't bring himself to say this and instead, as most atheists do, satisfies himself with criticising religion and fluffy language.  It's self-deception - on a par with the 'divine bigots'.

    And ethics do not come from human evolution.  Human behaviour comes from human evolution.  If you want to call some behaviour 'good' or 'right' then you need to provide evidence.

    Appealing to 'majority opinion' doesn't achieve that.  'Humans have come to see' is a load of rubbish because it depends on which humans you ask at which times.  Societies have and are 'flourishing' on vastly different ethical standards and who said this should be the goal for individual human behaviour anyway?  If you want to talk about evolution, at least stick to the survival of my genes as the goal rather than randomly introducing your own preferences.


    That may be so. Maybe we cant answer the questions to your satisfaction. But what is your answer Sparky? Where do you derive your ethics from? A divine source? Thats a staggeringly huge claim and the trouble is that you just cant prove it.
    Quote
    At the core is a claim by a bunch of people to have seen a miraculous event - not the claim of an individual to have heard God's voice.  Mohammed's claim stands alone because it contradicts the very early revelations that it claims to confirm.  The bible's claims come from multiple sources and can therefore be checked against each other.  In my reading of modern biblical scholarship, I've not found anything to be afraid of yet.


    I dont follow - so a bunch of people claim to have seen a miraculous event i.e. the resurrection of Jesus. First of all, just because several people claim to have seen it and documented it and you can trace the history of said documents and know that they havent been falsified somewhere in the intervening millenia, does that make the claim itself true?
    Surely if the claim itself is irrational , it doesnt matter how meticulous the scholarship is?
    And the conclusions drawn from the claim are even more irrational - the person who rose up from the dead was actually a superintelligent all-powerful superbeing who created the universe and yet had to come down to earth in the form of his own son (a human being) in order to kill himself in a horribly cruel way so that he could then forgive us for our sins?  Huh?   How on earth did anyone reach that conclusion?
     
    And why base your moral code upon an event that a few people claim to have seen 2000 years ago? Maybe social evolution, common sense, compassion, empathy, the golden rule, etc are all imperfect explanations and our ethical systems are deeply flawed, but even so - they have to be better than THAT!


    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #24 - January 08, 2009, 06:21 PM

    Sparky, I still don't understand how a Christian makes a moral judgement about something.

    I know you refused to answer my question about homosexuality last time - I really don't know why, because that is a very real issue where I find myself having to make a judgement about a moral issue.

    Is it right or wrong?

    When I was a Muslim I would have said it was wrong - and I would have taken the Qur'an and Hadith as my guide.

    Now I don't say it is wrong and I simply use my conscience/best judgement to come to that decision.

    What I want to know is your answer - as a Christian - to the question of whether homosexuality is right or wrong?

    And how do you know that?


    You are right Hassan.

    Do you remember that extract from the Vatican document I posted?

    I posted it because you were having the exact same debate with Sparky last time with regards to the role a conscience may play.

    Anyway the very last sentence of that excerpt says let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on.

    I don't know why Sparky cannot accept that and feels that we are all empty vessels until we are filled with guidance from the religious books.

    Perhaps he can explain that point to me because it is something I have never have accepted.

    I'm not with you on this one Sparky.

  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #25 - January 08, 2009, 06:24 PM


    But what interests me is what he says about morality and ethics which Hassan quoted above:
    Quote
    Even when I stopped believing I pretended I did, or said I did for a bit, for fear of the break in the dike. Like many people, the first thing that troubled me about leaving religion was fear of meaninglessness. Where would ethics come from? If nothing was revealed then surely everything would be relative ? and that way lay nihilism.


    which is followed by:

    Quote
    As it happens, it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.


    Which is not an answer.  I found the same thing on Hassan's blog.  It's a good question but saying 'ethics doesn't come from religion' isn't an answer to the question about where it does come from


    He wasn't trying to answer the question of where morality comes from. He was saying the same thing I was saying - that when it actually comes to making moral decisions both he and I have found that it is no easier with religion - and in fact religion told us to do with things that we felt were morally wrong.

    Your claim to know where ethics comes from is simply that - a claim - you have no more undeniable proof for it than any Muslim does for theirs.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #26 - January 08, 2009, 06:40 PM

    let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on


    I wonder what a society void of scriptural guidance would be like, Speaklow? If man could fully apply his mind and conscience without any reference to ancient stories of angry, jealous and vengeful gods? I suspect that at the very least we couldn't be worse off.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #27 - January 08, 2009, 06:44 PM

    let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on


    I wonder what a society void of scriptural guidance would be like, Speaklow? If man could fully apply his mind and conscience without any reference to ancient stories of angry, jealous and vengeful gods? I suspect that at the very least we couldn't be worse off.


    I'm a Star Trek fan so I wouldn't mind if it was something along the lines of 'Next Generation.'

    I was born too early. Bring on re-incarnation... but not just yet.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #28 - January 08, 2009, 06:49 PM



    I'm a Star Trek fan so I wouldn't mind if it was something along the lines of 'Next Generation.'

    I was born too early. Bring on re-incarnation... but not just yet.


    Oh me too lol I was meant to be aboard a starship out there exploring the universe.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Islam has made me an atheist
     Reply #29 - January 08, 2009, 06:53 PM

    let your conscience be your guide. The implication, at least from that article, was that a functioning conscience is God given, and if we were to live in a culture void of scriptoral guidance then our conscience is what we should fall back on


    I wonder what a society void of scriptural guidance would be like, Speaklow? If man could fully apply his mind and conscience without any reference to ancient stories of angry, jealous and vengeful gods? I suspect that at the very least we couldn't be worse off.


    I'm a Star Trek fan so I wouldn't mind if it was something along the lines of 'Next Generation.'

    I was born too early. Bring on re-incarnation... but not just yet.


    I'm a Star Trek fan too, but for me it was the original, Captain Kirk episodes - I loved his little speeches lol
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »