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 Topic: Readings from the "Holy Book"

 (Read 75371 times)
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  • Readings from the "Holy Book"
     OP - January 11, 2009, 09:17 PM
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b2T-e-gOVR8
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #1 - January 11, 2009, 09:56 PM
    Hassan,

    It seems your views about religion is very similar to mine. It's very good to see more like minded people. I've had the pleasure of meeting such people in this website.

    Great videos. I've enjoyed watching all of them. I favorite many of them.

    Cheers.
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #2 - January 11, 2009, 11:33 PM
    Video - Brilliant.  Absolutely brilliant.  I must admit I did not know the Holy Bible was this controversial.  These quotes were more right wing than excerpts from Mein Kampf.

    Looking forward to a Christian's response to add balance to these powerful argument(s). 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #3 - January 12, 2009, 04:23 AM
    Still watching it. The part about the "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" is a mistranlation from the king james.

    It is a mixup. The original language it stated: "Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live". Kind of like how the big white grapes and the big eyed whoories got mixed up.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #4 - January 12, 2009, 04:31 AM
    Nice video, probably due to personal bias but, I enjoyed watching this more then the other islam centric videos.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #5 - January 12, 2009, 04:48 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 11, 2009, 09:17 PM
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b2T-e-gOVR8


    Salaams, Hassan

    That was a good video. The clarity was good. Enjoyed that.

    BMZ
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #6 - January 12, 2009, 08:09 AM
    As Hass says in his video, Christians will claim Jesus wiped the slate clean of all the barbarity in the OT and replaced it with forgiveness and grace.

    But Yahweh as portrayed in the Old Testament is still a bloodthirsty tyrant and that is impossible to deny.

    Just because he supposedly became a reformed character once he sacrificed himself doesn't change the fact that he was previously a malevolent sadist. He used to like the smell of human blood now he just waits until we are dead to torture us for all eternity. Some reformation.

    Anyone who knows the New Testament will know that Jesus supposedly says that every jot and tittle of the law must come to pass. Even if he didn't, as Hass says how do they square the circle of the barbarity in the OT with Yahweh's supposedly loving nature?

    I have heard Christians say that the ancient world was so bad that it needed draconian rule to pacify it which is nonsense because Buddha and Mahavira were able to surpass the morality of even the New Testament long before Christianity was invented.

    The most common get out clause used by Christians is to claim anything that is patently immoral in the Bible is metaphor not reality.

    Even if you take the scripture out of it the basic doctrine of Christianity is immoral. It's basically a story of collective hereditary guilt that could only be appeased by human sacrifice.

    This is gods plan according to Christianity.

    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to"

    Why not just forgive us?

    Not only is it immoral it's batshit crazy and totally illogical.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #7 - January 12, 2009, 08:16 AM
    Also why would a loving god only send his son/himself to the baked deserts of the Middle East, with it's illiterate population when his message of redemption was so urgent and it involves the possibility of eternal torture.

    Why not somewhere like China which was a highly advanced and populous society?

    And why wait for something like 100,000 years to sacrifice himself when the eternal souls of mankind are at stake? Is he really loving if he allows people to be tortured for all eternity for not believing in something so unlikely?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #8 - January 12, 2009, 08:56 AM
    Excellent video Hassan. I always found the Bible to be even more cruel and intolerant than the Qur'an. (thats because it bigger and has more cruel and intolernat verses) So the hiprocrisy of Christians selling their religion and god as some kind of Peace and goodwill to all mankind, to me has always been total BS.

    Jesus was a Jew and followed all the laws of the Jews and said those laws have to continue till the end of time. He even said children who did not obey their parents should be Killed in keeping with OT law.

    Of course Christians puts another twist on it in discussion. Coming up with trumped up stories like when the temple was destroyed the OT laws were destroyed and other nonsensical arguments as apologies to justify their belief in this ancient barbaric desert code of life.

    And its because of these teachings and covenants with God about who gets what land the barbarism is continuing to this day.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #9 - January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    Wow.  A new low.  Not a single reference so that it could be examined in context.  No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.  The deliberate use of an archaic translation just to make it sound 'out of date'.  And misrepresentations of Christian teaching - even of matters that have already been discussed with you (Christ dying for a sin we didn't commit).

    A production worth of skeptics annotated.  Congratulations.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #10 - January 12, 2009, 10:12 AM
    Quote from: brucepig
    As Hass says in his video, Christians will claim Jesus wiped the slate clean of all the barbarity in the OT and replaced it with forgiveness and grace.


    Will they?  Who?  Perhaps you can provide a quote from a theologian who argues this?

    Quote from: brucepig
    But Yahweh as portrayed in the Old Testament is still a bloodthirsty tyrant and that is impossible to deny.


    Yahweh is portrayed in the Old Testament as a God who reserves the right to judge people and to decide when they live or die - much as he is in the New Testament.  I would be rather surprised if God didn't claim such a right.
    Quote from: brucepig
    Anyone who knows the New Testament will know that Jesus supposedly says that every jot and tittle of the law must come to pass. Even if he didn't, as Hass says how do they square the circle of the barbarity in the OT with Yahweh's supposedly loving nature?

    Good question and you'd think that Hassan would have done a bit of reading before making his video just like you would have before posting this rubbish.

    Quote from: brucepig
    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me

    Not a good start.  Perhaps you should read the bible too.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #11 - January 12, 2009, 10:14 AM
    It should show to Christians that it is pointless trying to show us ex-muslims the virtues of Christianity.  

    Many of the issues we have with the Quran, including its desire to murder certain groups of people, is ever present in the bible.  

    It also shows why we sometimes group both religions together in our arguments.

    Until these issues are ironed out, then there is little point in mentioning how loving Jesus Christ was, and how much he sacrificed for us.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #12 - January 12, 2009, 10:47 AM
    Quote from: diotima on January 12, 2009, 10:24 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 12, 2009, 10:14 AM
    It should show to Christians that it is pointless trying to show us ex-muslims the virtues of Christianity.  

    Many of the issues we have with the Quran, including its desire to murder certain groups of people, is ever present in the bible.  

    It also shows why we sometimes group both religions together in our arguments.

    Until these issues are ironed out, then there is little point in mentioning how loving Jesus Christ was, and how much he sacrificed for us.


    It only shows you?re too lazy to try and understand what you read. Or can you tell me, where Christians (or Jews) are told to "murder certain groups of people". Or WHICH mosaic laws exactly Christians EVER followed... do we keep kosher food? Do we circumcise our boys?  If that is your level of understanding of islam, you better stay moslem.



    No it shows that the bible , just like the qu'ran, appears to require the reader  to somehow decipher what is literal  from what  is allegorical. 

    If you accept the bible as the word of God then you have to ask yourself why he/she didn't make it bleeding obvious what he/she  wanted  us humans to do from the start and just stick with it.


    Oh and sorry for being too lazy to force myself to believe that God - the all powerful - ever present- all knowing deity somehow changes his/her mind about how he/shewants us to behave. Why??? Just because they can?
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #13 - January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #14 - January 12, 2009, 10:56 AM
    where's diotima's post gone?
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #15 - January 12, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: Humanoid on January 12, 2009, 10:47 AM
    Oh and sorry for being too lazy to force myself to believe that God - the all powerful - ever present- all knowing deity somehow changes his/her mind about how he/shewants us to behave. Why??? Just because they can?


    Come on now, you're just too lazy to get the bible out and look for whichever manuscripts you can find that provides the best meaning for you, ensure you get a good translator to fill in all the gaps and cover up all the cr@p so that you can safely relax in the knowledge that you understand God's teaching just the way you want to be fooled into believing it.

    And of course no Mosaic laws for us. That was in those times. Men were different then. They along with their women and children needed to be slaughtered. Today things are different. The sanctity of our lives is now put in place so god changes his law accordingly.

    Quite simple really.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #16 - January 12, 2009, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 12, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: Humanoid on January 12, 2009, 10:47 AM
    Oh and sorry for being too lazy to force myself to believe that God - the all powerful - ever present- all knowing deity somehow changes his/her mind about how he/shewants us to behave. Why??? Just because they can?


    Come on now, you're just too lazy to get the bible out and look for whichever manuscripts you can find that provides the best meaning for you, ensure you get a good translator to fill in all the gaps and cover up all the cr@p so that you can safely relax in the knowledge that you understand God's teaching just the way you want to be fooled into believing it.

    And of course no Mosaic laws for us. That was in those times. Men were different then. They along with their women and children needed to be slaughtered. Today things are different. The sanctity of our lives is now put in place so god changes his law accordingly.

    Quite simple really.


    Aaah , it all makes sense now.
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #17 - January 12, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."

    What's the point?  Someone who shows they haven't bothered to research an issue clearly isn't particularly interested in the truth - just in their own rhetoric.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #18 - January 12, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."

    What's the point?  Someone who shows they haven't bothered to research an issue clearly isn't particularly interested in the truth - just in their own rhetoric.

    You don't want to save us? How Christian of you. Don't point us in the right direction then, and leave us astray. Tongue

    I am interested. What do you want me to do? Send you a notarized letter stating I'm interested? Come on.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #19 - January 12, 2009, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Jesus was a Jew and followed all the laws of the Jews and said those laws have to continue till the end of time. He even said children who did not obey their parents should be Killed in keeping with OT law.


    Really? Somehow I suspect your understanding of this issue is as poor as any other biblical issue you have expressed an opinion on.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Of course Christians puts another twist on it in discussion. Coming up with trumped up stories like when the temple was destroyed the OT laws were destroyed and other nonsensical arguments as apologies to justify their belief in this ancient barbaric desert code of life.

    More appeals to ridicule.  Which isn't suprising for someone who has founded their belief system on inconsistency and logical fallacies.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #20 - January 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."

    What's the point?  Someone who shows they haven't bothered to research an issue clearly isn't particularly interested in the truth - just in their own rhetoric.


    Bingo! We should all do research and only stop when we convince ourselves that the bible is true?

    How come loads of uneducated people in the world believe in the Bible's word , despite having never read it all or "rersearched" it.

    How come they get a free ticket to heaven whereas people who research it and still genuinely don't believe burn in hell? WTF is God playing at?

    Perhaps its better to be pig ignorant in the long run, better chance of paradise...
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #21 - January 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."

    What's the point?  Someone who shows they haven't bothered to research an issue clearly isn't particularly interested in the truth - just in their own rhetoric.

    You don't want to save us? How Christian of you. Don't point us in the right direction then, and leave us astray. Tongue

    I am interested. What do you want me to do? Send you a notarized letter stating I'm interested? Come on.

    If you're interested, present an argument - you know, a quotation with references, your interpretation and possibly even a reference to some Christian literature that shows how Christians understand it and an argument as to why your interpretation is better.  A rant doesn't really qualify.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #22 - January 12, 2009, 12:15 PM
    Quote from: Humanoid on January 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.

    Then counter it.

    "Oh you who believe! Inform us!, If you are amongst those who know! And if there is a thing about which you do not know, refer to those with whom the understanding is! That is better for you, if you but knew."

    What's the point?  Someone who shows they haven't bothered to research an issue clearly isn't particularly interested in the truth - just in their own rhetoric.


    Bingo! We should all do research and only stop when we convince ourselves that the bible is true?

    How come loads of uneducated people in the world believe in the Bible's word , despite having never read it all or "rersearched" it.

    How come they get a free ticket to heaven whereas people who research it and still genuinely don't believe burn in hell? WTF is God playing at?

    Perhaps its better to be pig ignorant in the long run, better chance of paradise...

    Bingo!  You can't read!  That's why you end up spouting such rubbish!  You should do the research so that you come up with a sensible interpretation - whatever that might be.  And the reason 'uneducated people' do better than you do is because they are not so desperate to find a reason to reject God.  Even an uneducated person wouldn't be that surprised to find God judging people.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #23 - January 12, 2009, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Jesus was a Jew and followed all the laws of the Jews and said those laws have to continue till the end of time. He even said children who did not obey their parents should be Killed in keeping with OT law.


    Really? Somehow I suspect your understanding of this issue is as poor as any other biblical issue you have expressed an opinion on.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Of course Christians puts another twist on it in discussion. Coming up with trumped up stories like when the temple was destroyed the OT laws were destroyed and other nonsensical arguments as apologies to justify their belief in this ancient barbaric desert code of life.


    More appeals to ridicule.  Which isn't suprising for someone who has founded their belief system on inconsistency and logical fallacies.


    Well maybe as a good Christian you could actually provide some enlightenment as opposed to going off on a rant about my poor fund of biblical knowledge.

    So do explain the following words of Jesus. I've researched but the depth of your research could shed divine light on Jesus' recommndations.

    Mark 7:9-10 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

    Oh yes Jesus is saying you must follow the laws of Moses (yes the Moasic Laws). And one of them like so many Hassan has narrated in his video calls for killing and intolerance.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #24 - January 12, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 12, 2009, 08:09 AM

    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to"


    Not only is it immoral it's batshit crazy and totally illogical.


     Cheesy
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #25 - January 12, 2009, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    Wow.  A new low.  Not a single reference so that it could be examined in context.  No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.  The deliberate use of an archaic translation just to make it sound 'out of date'.  And misrepresentations of Christian teaching - even of matters that have already been discussed with you (Christ dying for a sin we didn't commit).

    A production worth of skeptics annotated.  Congratulations.


    I knew you'd like it Sparky. It is partly your posts here that inspired me to make this video.  Afro
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #26 - January 12, 2009, 01:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 12, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 12, 2009, 08:09 AM

    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to"


    Not only is it immoral it's batshit crazy and totally illogical.


     Cheesy


    And it?s totally ... your imagination.
    For one, God did NOT create man and woman with original sin... then, original sin is not about "angering God"... and on it goes.

    But as long as you get a laugh out of it...  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #27 - January 12, 2009, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 12, 2009, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
    Wow.  A new low.  Not a single reference so that it could be examined in context.  No attempt to examine how Christians have actually understood these verses - just a general assumption that they just ignore them.  The deliberate use of an archaic translation just to make it sound 'out of date'.  And misrepresentations of Christian teaching - even of matters that have already been discussed with you (Christ dying for a sin we didn't commit).

    A production worth of skeptics annotated.  Congratulations.


    I knew you'd like it Sparky. It is partly your posts here that inspired me to make this video.  Afro



    An excellent video Hassan..

    The Adam and Eve story. It warns us against pride, yet, but it also pushes blind obedience as a primary virtue. Curiosity, asking questions, seeking knowledge, are discouraged. Dialogue is discouraged. 
     
    The God of Genesis wants undiscerning obedience, the same thing, coincidentally, that oppressive rulers want, which suggests to me that oppressive rulers are behind this story, not God. 
    The Adam and Eve story. It warns us against pride, yet, but it also pushes blind obedience as a primary virtue. Curiosity, asking questions, seeking knowledge, are discouraged. Dialogue is discouraged. 
     
    In fact, I think the underlying purpose of the Adam and Eve story, is not to teach about the sin of pride, but is to teach obedience.
    The writer is presenting a mythological tale that encourages people to obey authority without questioning. It's the original propaganda story from those in charge.
     
    Then there's Abraham's willingness to senselessly kill his son in order to be obedient to God.
    Abraham did not ask any questions; and for this he is highly praised. Blind obedience is presented as "great faith." 
     
    Ubi dubium ibi libertas.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #28 - January 12, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Quote
    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to"


    It's more like "I'm going to create man and woman and set them a task that I know they will fail (since I am all knowing), I'm going to punish them when they inevitably fail since I neither explained my reasoning logically, nor told them of the consequences, I merely wished to see blind obediance.  I shall then cast them out of heaven with a sin that will passed on from generation to generation.  Every now and again I intend to wipe out many of them, then a few thousand years later I am going to impregnate a woman, so that I can be born, so that I can offer myself as a sacrifice (because I'm  kind of into S&M) so that I can forgive them for something I went OTT about (just so you know, the OT was actually meant to be the OTT but some scribe got the title wrong, I punished him though so no worries)"
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #29 - January 12, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on January 12, 2009, 08:09 AM
    This is gods plan according to Christianity.

    "I'm going to create man and woman with original sin which will anger me. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to"

    Why not just forgive us?

    Not only is it immoral it's batshit crazy and totally illogical.

    It's more accurate to say that we are born into sin rather than created with it. It stems back to Adam and Eve. However it is illogical that that actions of two have meant the entire human race has to suffer.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
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