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 Topic: Readings from the "Holy Book"

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #270 - January 17, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Aaaaaaargh!!!! Why do you bother questioning a nutty Christian??
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #271 - January 17, 2009, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 17, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Aaaaaaargh!!!! Why do you bother questioning a nutty Christian??

    Seconded forever, Jack. Mind you, the two strange-folk christians on this site will definitely put off anyone who may have been misguided enough to consider conversion.
    One look at Sparklet's posts tells you how blinkered, shackled and breathlessly born again he is. He wraps the bible around himself like it's Hampton court maze, gets himself lost, and then you can't find him. Maybe that's Hassan's strategy.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #272 - January 17, 2009, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 17, 2009, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 17, 2009, 03:31 PM
    Aaaaaaargh!!!! Why do you bother questioning a nutty Christian??

    Seconded forever, Jack. Mind you, the two strange-folk christians on this site will definitely put off anyone who may have been misguided enough to consider conversion.
    One look at Sparklet's posts tells you how blinkered, shackled and breathlessly born again he is. He wraps the bible around himself like it's Hampton court maze, gets himself lost, and then you can't find him. Maybe that's Hassan's strategy.




    Strategy or not, it's a waste of time, but I guess it's hard to resist once they start spouting off. Cry

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #273 - January 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Like you , I don't have the patience to listen to gobbledegook.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #274 - January 21, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
    In the way you obfuscate , the way you translate to taste,  the current one where you decide which questions you are prepared to answer, and those you are not, and the next one which will be doing a runner when the going gets tough (to be cont...).  

     

    (above quote lifted from Nostradamous on pg7 of this thread)


    Is it just me, or has anyone noticed Sparky has gone "missing in combat"
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #275 - January 21, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah
    So after four pages or whatever, you now decide this is the only salient point?


    No, I've made the same point since the beginning.
    Quote from: Cheetah
    Fair enough, we're never going to agree on the other stuff anyway.  However, I still maintain that internal consistency of any book is not proof of its veracity, and therefore would not on its own be a reason to believe in Christianity.


    And I've already agreed with you on that.  But finding a significant contradiction would be a reason not to believe in it.
    Quote from: Cheetah
    So does God's command  for people to stone adulteresses contradict God's word in John 8:1-11 - "let he who is without sin throw the first stone at her"?


    Not a terribly good example as there is evidence that this section was not in the early manuscripts - at least at this place.

    This is also a completely different question to the one you asked above (about squaring the different parts of God's interaction with mankind).

    Jesus concern seems to be with individual morality - how one person treats another - not so much with national laws.  So I don't see how comparing his words to this crowd (if it happened) and the OT law is really comparing like with like.  In addition, if his coming represented the fulfillment of the OT law, then it might just be a demonstration to this group that the real issue is their sin and separation from God rather than the 'purging of evil from among them'.

    But to pick up your earlier question:
    Quote from: Cheetah
    Quote from: sparky
    Intimacy, obedience (for us), care, concern, protection, security, forgiveness, joy.  I'm not aware of any dark side to being in a relationship with God


    What objective basis do you have for that definition?  What about the dark side of judgement, punishment and death, all of which are included in the Biblical version of God's interaction with mankind?  How do they square with God's care, concern, forgiveness, etc?


    That definition is supported by numerous bible verses.  Do you want me to quote them all?  But I'm not sure that it's really that different to what we understand to be human love.  Most of those would be aspects to any loving human relationship - except that 'obedience' might be replaced by 'mutual submission'.

    But in any relationship it takes two to tango.  If I love you but you hate me, we're not going to enjoy much of a loving relationship - no matter how much I might desire it.  Now suppose that you not only hate me but you try to poison other people's relationships with me as well.  At some point, I would be neglecting my love for the others, if I didn't try to cut off my relationship with you and try to limit the damage you could do.

    God's judgments on nations I see as not too different to this - except on a 'God-sized' scale.  At some point, a society's rejection of God becomes so ingrained and results in so much evil that it is more loving to the others affected by the evil to destroy it than to let it continue.

    So I don't see judgment as the 'dark-side' of God so much as an outworking of his love and justice.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #276 - January 21, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    OK, well I have used those passages as indicators to the character of God and I find they indicate God is not of good character.

    1. Am I wrong?


    Yes.

    Quote from: Hassan
    2. Why am I wrong?


    Because you continue to use your own, unsupported, standard of 'good' to judge God.  You have also repeatedly failed to understand the context of the passages concerned which also makes me suspect your judgment.

    Quote from: Hassan
    3. Can you not see that many people would also easily come to that conclusion after reading those passages?


    Only if they employed 'reasoning' as limited as yours.

    Don't get me wrong - they are terrifying passages - as they are supposed to be.  But I suspect that most people kind of expect that God will judge people and that when he does - it isn't pretty.

    You see, the consequence of sin being death is a constant refrain from the beginning of the bible to the end.  If it wasn't, the sending of his son to die would indeed be the 'nonsense' that you make it out to be.  That's why your 'Christians don't take this book seriously' in the video is such a load of nonsense.  It is precisely because sin matters so much that Christians have bothered to believe in Jesus in the first place.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #277 - January 21, 2009, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 21, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
    In the way you obfuscate , the way you translate to taste,  the current one where you decide which questions you are prepared to answer, and those you are not, and the next one which will be doing a runner when the going gets tough (to be cont...).  

     

    (above quote lifted from Nostradamous on pg7 of this thread)


    Is it just me, or has anyone noticed Sparky has gone "missing in combat"

    Missing in substance, I find.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #278 - January 25, 2009, 12:45 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 21, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    OK, well I have used those passages as indicators to the character of God and I find they indicate God is not of good character.

    1. Am I wrong?


    Yes.

    Quote from: Hassan
    2. Why am I wrong?


    Because you continue to use your own, unsupported, standard of 'good' to judge God


    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?

    Quote from: sparky on January 21, 2009, 05:07 PM
    You have also repeatedly failed to understand the context of the passages concerned which also makes me suspect your judgment.


    I see nothing in the 'context' that makes these passages acceptable.

    Had I not decided to use my own judgment rather than trust what claimed to be a Divine external standard - I would still be a Muslim.

    You want Muslims to use their own judgment to reject Islam.

    Yet if this very same judgment leads them to reject Christianity it is faulty and you suspect it.

    Clearly it is your judgment that is suspect.




  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #279 - January 25, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Give up the ghost, sparky.  Its time you realised what you believe, and every other religious affiliate, has unsupported faith. 

    Thats fine, if you have an innate feeling that there is a God up there - there is no argument as long as you accept this to yourself and others. 

    If need be re-read this thread, or the biblical contradictions and anti-gay thread I posted, and you will find your belief cannot be rationalised and logically substantiated.

    Christianity has had its time & place, and we have moved on - knowledge has enabled us to do so. Scientifically, historically (by its plagiarisation of previous works and bringing nothing new to the table for that time) and philosophically speaking, it simply adds up to being written by man himself.  If we were to write a book to rival the Bible, it would not be hard.   We would talk about doing good for others, caring, being nice blah, blah, let it simmer for about 1000 years, and you never know some people even start referring to as "Holy".

    You come across as a good man, yet somewhat smitten by a book written centuries ago.  If it were God's word it would not need such vigorous defence.  After all God is all powerful and could easily produce works that were undeniable  and make us all do what he wanted.

    Be fair to yourself, and replace the the precious time you spend with the Bible,  convincing others of its merits, at church, doing some good for society or charity instead.  Think of what you could have achieved with this time.  After all if there is a supreme being, he would not be egotistical and would not fault you for doing this, so at the very least you have your bases covered.

    After having tried, I see nothing new or special about the book of yours. I have no agenda and would happily believe in Christianity if I truly believed it was written by my supreme master, after all eternal damantion is something we should all worry about.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #280 - January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I see nothing in the 'context' that makes these passages acceptable.


    I see no reason why they should be 'acceptable' to you.  What would that tell me other than that you happen to like or dislike them?  If you want to make God into what you happen to like, be my guest.  But that would make you no different to the thousands of others who have made God in their own image.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Had I not decided to use my own judgment rather than trust what claimed to be a Divine external standard - I would still be a Muslim.


    And?  You seem to have dumped a God that someone else made up for one that you want to make up for yourself.  The fact that you used faulty reasoning previously doesn't mean that it has stopped being faulty reasoning.

    And, as I have pointed out, the Quranic commands very much are 'for' you.  That these should jar with your conscience is a good reason to question them.  The same is not true of the passages you are wanting to evaluate in the Old Testament.  What you are saying is that God's behaviour (not his commands to you) should be 'acceptable' to you.  I have no reason to think that that should be the case as you are not God.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You want Muslims to use their own judgment to reject Islam.

    Yet if this very same judgment leads them to reject Christianity it is faulty and you suspect it.

    I think you are thinking of someone else.  I would put little store by the reasons you have given here for evaluating either Islam or Christianity.

    The Quran claims to confirm the earlier scriptures.  This is a claim that can be tested and we find again and again, that in relation to the Character of God and his relationship to people that it does not.  We've already seen that in both the Old and New Testaments, God commands his people to love their neighbours and yet this command is nowhere in the Quran.  We have to go to an obscure Hadith to get anything like it - and even then it's not clear that the meaning is the same.  Are we supposed to think that the earlier scriptures were corrupted to insert this command - because people like to make it more difficult for themselves?  Instead in the Quran we find a series of rather doable commands.  Suddenly pleasing God has become a whole lot easier!

    I'm quite happy for you and anyone else to use their rational judgement.  But if you use your emotional reactions to tell you what is 'true' then you are on thin ice.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Clearly it is your judgment that is suspect.

    Quite possibly but I'm still waiting for you to show me why.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #281 - January 26, 2009, 10:54 AM
    Hi IsLame,

    Quote from: IsLame
    Give up the ghost, sparky.


    You want me dead?

    Quote from: IsLame
    Its time you realised what you believe, and every other religious affiliate, has unsupported faith.


    As does humanism, as does objectivism, as does communism, as does fascism, etc, etc.

    See, what you need to realise is that if God isn't there, then it's a moral free-for-all with no true values or purpose at all.

    Quote from: IsLame
    Thats fine, if you have an innate feeling that there is a God up there - there is no argument as long as you accept this to yourself and others.


    My 'innate feelings' on the subject are irrelevant.  I believe God is up there because a whole lot of things make a whole lot more sense if God is actually up there.
    Quote from: IsLame
    If need be re-read this thread, or the biblical contradictions and anti-gay thread I posted, and you will find your belief cannot be rationalised and logically substantiated.

    Yeah, I think I've been there right the way through this thread and the discussion is about whether Hassan has given any reason not to believe in it.  I don't think he has.  Of course, there may be other reasons not to believe in it and you'd be welcome to argue them on another thread.

    As for the anti-gay thread, it was rather pathetic wasn't it.  For all the reams that Christians have written on the subject, that was the best you could do?

    Quote from: IsLame
    If we were to write a book to rival the Bible, it would not be hard.   We would talk about doing good for others, caring, being nice blah, blah, let it simmer for about 1000 years, and you never know some people even start referring to as "Holy".

    Really?  You should go for it!  I hear the bible sells quite well so you could make a ton of money.  Of course, you'd need to find a few other contributors and keep adding bits over several centuries but I'm sure you'd get there in the end.
    Quote from: IsLame
    You come across as a good man, yet somewhat smitten by a book written centuries ago.  If it were God's word it would not need such vigorous defence.

    Defence?  I spent most of the thread waiting for an actual argument!

    Quote from: IsLame
    After all God is all powerful and could easily produce works that were undeniable  and make us all do what he wanted.

    Actually, having read the comments on this thread, I'm tempted to think this might be stretching even God's omnipotence.

    Quote from: IsLame
    Be fair to yourself, and replace the the precious time you spend with the Bible,  convincing others of its merits, at church, doing some good for society or charity instead.

    Hmm.  I spent the last ten years working for charities - including seven years in Bangladesh and Afghanistan.   And funnily enough, my bible readings were fairly key to me wanting to go in the first place.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #282 - January 26, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.


    Leaving aside the question of whether the Bible actually is consistent - why should it's consistency be the only measure of the character of God?

    Why should I not regard killing babies as a sign that this God is not one worthy of my praise?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #283 - January 26, 2009, 01:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:54 AM
    Quote from: IsLame
    Give up the ghost, sparky.


    You want me dead? .


    No, it's a popular saying that means nothing of the sort!


    In response to your post, I dont doubt for a second that there are many believers who are good people.
    I dont doubt believers can carve out the best parts of religion and lead a good way of life for themselves and humanity.  
    I dont doubt that a set of good principles overseen by a supreme deity, with the added incentive of heaven or extreme punishment in hell, is the best way to extract good out of man.  

    That is not the question posed here.  

    The overall question put is whether Chrisitianity is the truth.  

    The behaviour of followers is not a litmus test for the truth.  Nor an internal feeling, a good book, or the fact it does not contradict itself.

    You need to have something more, and I am interested to know what it is that makes you so sure?  Following that can I ask what percentage sure you are that there is a God, and what percentage you are that Christianity is his religion?

    You quote humanism as an example here, and is a good one as I feel it is the closest match to my personal views.  Even though it has been written by humans and still is less contradictory & contentious than those written by  so-called supreme beings, I am still not 100% convinced it is the truth.

    We have tried to prove that it cannot be a word of a superior being by showing examples of bad things the bible says and you have countered it by

    i)   ducking & weaving     
    ii)  saying if God choses to say that, then so be it.
    iii)  choosing not to comment (homosexuality).

    I am prepared to accept scientific evidence as proof. I have listed scientific evidence in another thread, and you took the third amendment, you chose not to comment.  The only evidence you previously were prepared to accept was if it contradicted itself.  I have listed contradictions in another thread and you again, no surprise here, chose not to comment.  

    This is behaviour consistant with attempting to justify a logically flawed argument.

    Lets hypothesize for a second.  Lets say the fairy at the bottom of my garden invented the world, and wrote a book called humantheism 2000 years ago (based on humanism but actually written by humans) and your parents were humantheists.  

    According to your logic, what religion would you be now?  Again according to your logic, how would you disprove it?

    Or is it simply a matter of what I said in my earlier post, faith.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #284 - January 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.


    Leaving aside the question of whether the Bible actually is consistent - why should it's consistency be the only measure of the character of God?

    Why should I not regard killing babies as a sign that this God is not one worthy of my praise?

    Because the question is not 'should I praise him or not?'  The question is 'does he exist? and if so, what does that mean for me?'

    Your line of argument sheds absolutely no light on the question of whether he exists or not - an examination of his consistency might show that he doesn't exist but would not, in itself, mean that he does.

    If God really exists and created us, then it's a nonsense to talk about 'measuring' his character using anything other than what he has said about himself.  If the Christian God exists, you can still choose not to praise him because he seems to have given us that freedom.  How you exercise that freedom is up to you.

    If the Christian God exists, not only did he command the destruction of a child-sacrificing society 2000 years ago - but he sent his own son to die for the sin of the world.  So at best, you could say that the picture is mixed.  If he really sent his son, then I can believe that his commands to the Israelites were only what were necessary at the time to achieve his overall purpose for mankind.  And I can't see anything from the text that suggests otherwise.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #285 - January 26, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:54 AM
    See, what you need to realise is that if God isn't there, then it's a moral free-for-all with no true values or purpose at all.


    So sparky if god was not there to threaten you with eternal damnation in hell fire, you would have no morals.

    You would go around on a killing and raping spree?

    Humans do not have a conscience to know right from wrong without morals from the bible?

    In societies without the bible, there is total chaos and mayhem with people living utterly immoral unethical lives?

    Also I see people who do not know your god has no purpose in life? What evidence do you have of that?
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #286 - January 26, 2009, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: IsLame
    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: IsLame
    Give up the ghost, sparky.


    You want me dead? .

    No, it's a popular saying that means nothing of the sort!

    Quote
    give-up the ghost - pass from physical life and lose all bodily attributes and functions necessary to sustain life; "She died from cancer"; "The children perished in the fire"; "The patient went peacefully"; "The old guy kicked the bucket at the age of 102"

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/give-up+the+ghost]
    [url]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/give-up+the+ghost    [/url]

    And of course, more famously:

    John 19:30

    30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
    KJV

    Quote from: IsLame
    In response to your post, I dont doubt for a second that there are many believers who are good people.
    I dont doubt believers can carve out the best parts of religion and lead a good way of life for themselves and humanity.  
    I dont doubt that a set of good principles overseen by a supreme deity, with the added incentive of heaven or extreme punishment in hell, is the best way to extract good out of man.  

    That is not the question posed here.  

    The overall question put is whether Chrisitianity is the truth.  


    That may be your question.  I took this thread to be about whether the quotes that Hassan read out can be a taken as reasons to think that Christianity is not true.  I don't think they can - mainly because they fit with what else is revealed about God's character and his relationship with mankind.

    Quote from: IsLame
    The behaviour of followers is not a litmus test for the truth.  Nor an internal feeling, a good book, or the fact it does not contradict itself.

    I'm not sure what you mean by a 'litmus test' but if an unresolvable contradiction existed then it would be a good reason to think that it might not be true.

    Quote from: IsLame
    You need to have something more, and I am interested to know what it is that makes you so sure?  Following that can I ask what percentage sure you are that there is a God, and what percentage you are that Christianity is his religion?

    I find that it explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation.  I don't know about percentages but I am sure enough to take it as the basis for living my life - including such things as moving my family to Afghanistan.

    Quote from: IsLame
    You quote humanism as an example here, and is a good one as I feel it is the closest match to my personal views.  Even though it has been written by humans and is less contradictory & contentious than that written by a co-called supremem being, I am still not 100% convinced it is the truth.


    What possible evidence would you advance to even consider that it might be truth.  Perhaps something scientific?  It's plucked out of thin-air, Islame!  Someone else might find that nazism was 'the closest match to their personal views' - would they be as justified as finding it 'almost true' as you do?

    Quote from: IsLame
    We have tried to prove that it cannot be a word of a superior being by showing examples of bad things the bible says and you have countered it by
    i)   saying if God choses to say that, then so be it.  
    ii)  ducking & weaving  
    iii)  chosing not to comment (homosexuality).

    From someone whose mode of argument was to repeatedly ask a loaded question, I'm not terribly concerned with how you think I have done.

    Quote from: IsLame
    I would accept scientific evidence as proof. I have listed scientific evidence in another thread, and you took the third amendment, you chose not to comment.

    Actually, I only just saw it - probably because the title talks about scientific errors in the Quran while the content is all about the bible and no-one else had commented on it either!  And it is yet another long list of verses with a single line comment copy and pasted (without attribution) from another website.

    Here is the original if anyone cared:
    http://www.inu.net/skeptic/bs.htm]
    [url]http://www.inu.net/skeptic/bs.htm    [/url]

    I won't mention the irony of the fact that the opening sentence talks about copying homework from the classroom dunce!

     Cheesy

    If you want to discuss that issue.  Pick a verse, research it a bit - including Christian responses and then post your thoughts.  Then maybe someone will take you seriously.
    Quote from: IsLame
    The only evidence you previously were prepared to accept was if it contradicted itself.  I have listed contradictions in another thread and you again chose, no surprise here, not to comment.  

    This was in the context of this thread where the subject is the character of God - not the inspiration of the bible.

    Quote from: IsLame
    This is behaviour consistant with attempting to justify a logically flawed argument.

    I couldn't have put it better myself.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #287 - January 26, 2009, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Quote from: sparky
    See, what you need to realise is that if God isn't there, then it's a moral free-for-all with no true values or purpose at all.


    So sparky if god was not there to threaten you with eternal damnation in hell fire, you would have no morals.

    Sigh.  More non-sequitors...
    But perhaps you can tell me what evidence exists to support your 'morals'?

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Humans do not have a conscience to know right from wrong without morals from the bible?

    So if my conscience tells me that it is ok to kill someone, then it actually is ok?
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    In societies without the bible, there is total chaos and mayhem with people living utterly immoral unethical lives?

    How do you know their lives aren't immoral?  What is your evidence for the standard that you are using to judge that?

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Also I see people who do not know your god has no purpose in life? What evidence do you have of that?

    No, I said that there 'is' no purpose.  The fact that many people (including irrational atheists such as yourself) convince themselves that there is bears no relation to the objective reality that it doesn't exist.  Does God exist because I go around behaving like he does?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #288 - January 26, 2009, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 02:40 PM
    give-up the ghost - pass from physical life and lose all bodily attributes and functions necessary to sustain life; "She died from cancer"; "The children perished in the fire"; "The patient went peacefully"; "The old guy kicked the bucket at the age of 102"

    And of course, more famously:John 19:30 30

    When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. "

     

    You kill me, Sparky (P.S I did not mean kill me). 

    Try not to believe everything you read Sparky, try to understand its concept within this thread? i.e. your argument is flailing, so just give it up, like the spirit/ghost of somebody who is holding onto his life. I know its a foreign concept to people of the book, but it will help you gain a better understanding of the world around you.

    Quote from: IsLame
    You need to have something more, and I am interested to know what it is that makes you so sure?  Following that can I ask what percentage sure you are that there is a God, and what percentage you are that Christianity is his religion?

    Quote from: sparky
    I find that it explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation.  I don't know about percentages ..

    I note you again avoided answering 2 out of the 3 questions posed here - but will get back to that later.

    Quote from: IsLame
    You quote humanism as an example here, and is a good one as I feel it is the closest match to my personal views.  Even though it has been written by humans and is less contradictory & contentious than that written by a so-called supreme being, I am still not 100% convinced it is the truth.

    Quote from: sparky
    Someone else might find that nazism was 'the closest match to their personal views' - would they be as justified as finding it 'almost true' as you do?

    No, it is not ok to persecute people because of their race,  however given your ability to justify the extermination of the Canaanite race earlier, it may be ok for you provided your set of precursary conditions are met?

    Quote from: sparky
    What possible evidence would you advance to even consider that it might be truth.  Perhaps something scientific?  It's plucked out of thin-air, Islame!


    Are you talking about Christianity or Humanism here?  The answer lies in the same answer you just gave, for the same question I asked you - i.e. "explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation".  Phew, at least we agree on one thing and we can exploit this further - again later.

    Quote from: IsLame
    I would accept scientific evidence as proof. I have listed scientific evidence in another thread, and you took the third amendment, you chose not to comment.

    Quote from: sparky
    Actually, I only just saw it - probably because the title talks about scientific errors in the Quran while the content is all about the bible and no-one else had commented on it either!  And it is yet another long list of verses with a single line comment copy and pasted (without attribution) from another website.

    Here is the original if anyone cared:

    [url=http://www.inu.net/skeptic/bs.htm]http://www.inu.net/skeptic/bs.htm]

    I won't mention the irony of the fact that the opening sentence talks about copying homework from the classroom dunce!  If you want to discuss that issue.  Pick a verse, research it a bit - including Christian responses and then post your thoughts.  Then maybe someone will take you seriously.


    The article was for your information, and anyone that cared to read it - was not after comment as I has already reached my conclusions before I read it.  You might want to re-read the title given your claim above.  Also it lists biblical science as I would assume that the readers are already familiar with the Quranic science.

    P.S the author has been attributed and I liked the joke.


    I am still trying to get an understanding of your belief system, due to your lack of clarity to straightforward questions and refusal to answer others. Its a shame, as a logical belief system would not have this problem.  I am prepared to answer any question you have of my belief system, as there is nothing that does not add up - I am happy to do this with any question you have avoided, or anything you can think of.  Try me, if you dont believe me.

    This makes it difficult, and akin to a detective interrogating a suspect who choses what he wants and doesnt want to say.
     
    Hence I will assume worst case scenario for unanswered questions, as we are in danger of going nowhere, I am keen to get to the bottom of this.  This is also based on your earlier reply to why you believe in Chrisitanity "explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation" above.

    It appears that you are pretty sure there is a God, and this is not based on anything more than your own personal feeling.  Given your need to have to follow a specific school of thought, you found Christianity was the best fit.


    ........ and that's fine.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #289 - January 26, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.


    Leaving aside the question of whether the Bible actually is consistent - why should it's consistency be the only measure of the character of God?

    Why should I not regard killing babies as a sign that this God is not one worthy of my praise?

    Because the question is not 'should I praise him or not?'  The question is 'does he exist? and if so, what does that mean for me?'


    How does the (alleged) consistency of the Bible prove that God exists?

    And if it does prove he exists then he sounds terrifying and I can't see any reason to worship him apart from fear.

    Is that a good enough reason to worship him?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #290 - January 26, 2009, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: IsLame
    Try not to believe everything you read Sparky, try to understand its concept within this thread?  I know its a foreign concept to people of the book, but it will help you gain a better understanding of the world around you.


    Whatever.  The only context I have ever heard of 'giving up the ghost' is in relation to death.  Never in relation to a discussion.

    Quote from: IsLame
    I note you again avoided answering 2 out of the 3 questions poised here - but will get back to that later.


    No, I answered them in brief.  As far as I can see, my reasons for believing what I do are not the subject of this thread.

    Quote from: IsLame
    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: IsLame
    You quote humanism as an example here, and is a good one as I feel it is the closest match to my personal views.  Even though it has been written by humans and is less contradictory & contentious than that written by a so-called supreme being, I am still not 100% convinced it is the truth.


    Someone else might find that nazism was 'the closest match to their personal views' - would they be as justified as finding it 'almost true' as you do?


    No, it is not right to persecute people because of their race,  however given your ability to justify the extermination of a race earlier, given a certain set of conditions it may be ok with you?

    You miss the point entirely.  The only reason you advance for believing that humanism might be true is that it matches your 'personal views'.  A Nazi might be able to say exactly the same thing.  What makes your position any more rational than his?

    I'll ask again, how do you know that it is 'not right to persecute people because of their race?'
    Quote from: IsLame
    Are you talking about Christianity or Humanism here?  The answer lies in the same answer you just gave, for the same question I asked you - i.e. "explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation".  Phew, at least we agree on one thing and we can exploit this further - again later.

    Humanism doesn't explain anything.  It is a series of unfounded assertions about how humans should be behave.  There is no 'explanation' at all.

    Quote from: IsLame
    The article was for your information, and anyone that cared to read it - was not after comment as I has already reached my conclusions before I read it.  You might want to re-read the title given your claim above.  Also it lists biblical science as I would assume that the readers are already familiar with the Quranic science.

    You mucked it up, IsLame.  Completely.
    Quote from: IsLame
    I am still trying to get an understanding of your belief system, due to your lack of clarity to straightforward questions and refusal to answer others. Its a shame, as a logical belief system would not have this problem.  I am prepared to answer any question you have of my belief system, as there is nothing that does not add up - I am happy to do this with any question you have avoided, or anything you can think of.  Try me, if you dont believe me.

    My belief system is not the subject of the thread.
    Quote from: IsLame
    This makes it difficult, and akin to a detective interrogating a suspect who choses what he wants and doesnt want to say.

    Absolutely.

    Quote from: IsLame
    Hence I will assume worst case scenario for unanswered questions, as we are in danger of going nowhere, I am keen to get to the bottom of this.

    Generally not a good idea.

    Quote from: IsLame
    It appears that you are pretty sure there is a God, and this is not based on anything more than your own personal feeling.  Given your need to have to follow a school of thought "explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation" , you found Christianity was the best fit.

    Not really but once this thread is exhausted maybe we can talk about it some more.

  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #291 - January 26, 2009, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.


    Leaving aside the question of whether the Bible actually is consistent - why should it's consistency be the only measure of the character of God?

    Why should I not regard killing babies as a sign that this God is not one worthy of my praise?

    Because the question is not 'should I praise him or not?'  The question is 'does he exist? and if so, what does that mean for me?'


    How does the (alleged) consistency of the Bible prove that God exists?

    And if it does prove he exists then he sounds terrifying and I can't see any reason to worship him apart from fear.

    Is that a good enough reason to worship him?


    Hassan, I just answered that very question:

    Quote from: sparky
    Your line of argument sheds absolutely no light on the question of whether he exists or not - an examination of his consistency might show that he doesn't exist but would not, in itself, mean that he does.

    I.e. consistency does not prove that he exists.  I said that a couple of times in discussion with Cheetah on this thread as well.

    There is reason to believe that God exists if that is what the evidence supports.  Identifying inconsistency might give you a reason not to believe that he exists.

    And I also gave you other reasons in my post as well.  Did you actually read it all?  If the Christian God exists he also desired a relationship with me so much that he sent his son to die to make it possible.  In life, here, this is exactly the kind of behaviour that I 'worship' (i.e. think valuable).  These are my heroes - those who give their lives for the sake of others - even their enemies.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #292 - January 26, 2009, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 26, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    And what standard of good should I use? And why should I use it?


    The bible's own standard of good because that is the only standard relevant for assessing the consistency of God's behaviour.


    Leaving aside the question of whether the Bible actually is consistent - why should it's consistency be the only measure of the character of God?

    Why should I not regard killing babies as a sign that this God is not one worthy of my praise?

    Because the question is not 'should I praise him or not?'  The question is 'does he exist? and if so, what does that mean for me?'


    How does the (alleged) consistency of the Bible prove that God exists?

    And if it does prove he exists then he sounds terrifying and I can't see any reason to worship him apart from fear.

    Is that a good enough reason to worship him?


    Hassan, I just answered that very question:

    Quote from: sparky
    Your line of argument sheds absolutely no light on the question of whether he exists or not - an examination of his consistency might show that he doesn't exist but would not, in itself, mean that he does.

    I.e. consistency does not prove that he exists.  I said that a couple of times in discussion with Cheetah on this thread as well.

    There is reason to believe that God exists if that is what the evidence supports.  Identifying inconsistency might give you a reason not to believe that he exists.

    And I also gave you other reasons in my post as well.  Did you actually read it all?  If the Christian God exists he also desired a relationship with me so much that he sent his son to die to make it possible.  In life, here, this is exactly the kind of behaviour that I 'worship' (i.e. think valuable).  These are my heroes - those who give their lives for the sake of others - even their enemies.


    You seem to be taking me round in circles, Sparky and I'm feeling confused and dizzy.

    What I want to know is what reason do I have to believe in Christianity?

    At the moment I see no reason to make me want to believe and many reasons to make me want to reject it.

    Am I too dense? Is Christianity only for those with a certain degree of intelligence and understanding - like yourself?

    I just don't get it? Please tell me what am I doing wrong?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #293 - January 26, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Quote from: sparky
    If the Christian God exists he also desired a relationship with me so much that he sent his son to die to make it possible.

    Proof?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #294 - January 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    You seem to be taking me round in circles, Sparky and I'm feeling confused and dizzy.

    What I want to know is what reason do I have to believe in Christianity?


    Hassan, that isn't a question you have asked at any point.  What you believe is up to you.  I assume that you would believe what you thought was true.  My aim was to show that the verses you have quoted in the video do not give a reason to think that Christianity is not true - he could have commanded these things and still both exist and be loving.
    Quote from: Hassan
    At the moment I see no reason to make me want to believe and many reasons to make me want to reject it.

    Am I too dense? Is Christianity only for those with a certain degree of intelligence and understanding - like yourself?

    I just don't get it? Please tell me what am I doing wrong?

    What you are doing wrong is continuing to decide what to believe according to what you 'prefer' ('I don't want to believe it') rather than what is true.  If I say 'I can't believe in the big bang because it would make me more happy if the universe was a steady state' it would be a nonsense reason.  The question is 'what does the evidence best support' not 'what would make me happier'.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #295 - January 26, 2009, 07:18 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    I assume that you would believe what you thought was true


    Indeed.

    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    My aim was to show that the verses you have quoted in the video do not give a reason to think that Christianity is not true - he could have commanded these things and still both exist and be loving.


    Then I'm afraid you have failed to convince me of that.

    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    What you are doing wrong is continuing to decide what to believe according to what you 'prefer' ('I don't want to believe it') rather than what is true.


    How do I know the claims of Christianity are true? (Haven't we been here before?)

    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    The question is 'what does the evidence best support' not 'what would make me happier'.


    Fine, but I see no evidence to support the claims of Christianity.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #296 - January 26, 2009, 08:29 PM
    And you won't get any either, Hassan. Just the same old, same old.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #297 - January 26, 2009, 08:37 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: IsLame
    Try not to believe everything you read Sparky, try to understand its concept within this thread?  I know its a foreign concept to people of the book, but it will help you gain a better understanding of the world around you.

    Whatever.  The only context I have ever heard of 'giving up the ghost' is in relation to death.  Never in relation to a discussion.

    Believe me, there are many Christian & Islamic fundamentalists who are less deserving of life, but still would not want them to die.

    Quote from: IsLame
    I note you again avoided answering 2 out of the 3 questions poised here - but will get back to that later.


    Quote from: Sparky
    No, I answered them in brief.  As far as I can see, my reasons for believing what I do are not the subject of this thread.

    You did not answer the questions in the vain that they were asked.  In any case its a forum where all subjects are raised, and threads  can often discuss a wide range of related issues.  There is no written law?  Or is it just question avoidance, again?

    Quote from: IsLame
    You quote humanism as an example here, and is a good one as I feel it is the closest match to my personal views.  Even though it has been written by humans and is less contradictory & contentious than that written by a so-called supreme being, I am still not 100% convinced it is the truth.



    Quote from: Sparky
    Humanism doesn't explain anything.  It is a series of unfounded assertions about how humans should be behave.  There is no 'explanation' at all.



    Quote from: IsLame
    The article was for your information, and anyone that cared to read it - was not after comment as I has already reached my conclusions before I read it.  You might want to re-read the title given your claim above.  Also it lists biblical science as I would assume that the readers are already familiar with the Quranic science.

    Quote from: Sparky
    You mucked it up, IsLame.  Completely.

    Sorry, will try better next time.

    Quote from: IsLame
    I am still trying to get an understanding of your belief system, due to your lack of clarity to straightforward questions and refusal to answer others. Its a shame, as a logical belief system would not have this problem.  I am prepared to answer any question you have of my belief system, as there is nothing that does not add up - I am happy to do this with any question you have avoided, or anything you can think of.  Try me, if you dont believe me.

    My belief system is not the subject of the thread.
    Quote from: IsLame
    This makes it difficult, and akin to a detective interrogating a suspect who choses what he wants and doesnt want to say.

    Quote from: Sparky

    Absolutely


    Sad, if those were your intentions.  Fortunately I dont believe this was the case.  I believe it is for another reason and and you will find that in the conclusions at the end.  

    Quote from: IsLame
    Hence I will assume worst case scenario for unanswered questions, as we are in danger of going nowhere, I am keen to get to the bottom of this.

    Quote from: Sparky
    Generally not a good idea.


    Agreed, but when faced with someone that refuses to answer this many questions, and if you just want an answer?  Dont worry, I am a pretty good detective anyway

    Quote from: Sparky
    I'll ask again, how do you know that it is 'not right to persecute people because of their race?'

      

    My personal sense of justice tells me it is wrong, based on my understanding of how to evaluate a personal judgement.  I should not need to justify the reason I dont want to exterminate a race of people.  I dont want to go onto a red herring topic to avoid the questions posed.  Please dont start parroting the well rehearsed logical fallacy argument you picked up from Diotima.  

    It is simply wrong, and sadly Christianity not only says its ok, but commanded its followers to do so.  Its no wonder you try to justify it.

    Quote from: IsLame
    It appears that you are pretty sure there is a God, and this is not based on anything more than your own personal feeling.  Given your need to have to follow a school of thought "explains more of what I observe about myself and the world around me than anything other explanation" , you found Christianity was the best fit.


    Quote from: Sparky
    Not really..



    Its my conclusion of where you stand, based on all the evidence so far. Sorry you dont agree, but I am not sure if the real answer will ever be found as I dont believe you really know either.

    Quote from: Sparky

    .. but once this thread is exhausted maybe we can talk about it some more.



    No thanks
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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #298 - January 26, 2009, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 26, 2009, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Quote from: sparky
    See, what you need to realise is that if God isn't there, then it's a moral free-for-all with no true values or purpose at all.


    So sparky if god was not there to threaten you with eternal damnation in hell fire, you would have no morals.

    Sigh.  More non-sequitors...


    It is not a non-sequitur.
     
    You said life without god would be moral free-for-all. Hence if you did not believe in god you would have no morals. Very myopic view.

    Quote
    But perhaps you can tell me what evidence exists to support your 'morals'?


    What evidence exists to support your morals? The bible? Is that evidence?

    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Humans do not have a conscience to know right from wrong without morals from the bible?

    So if my conscience tells me that it is ok to kill someone, then it actually is ok?


    If your conscience tells you to kill someone, then you would be treated as a criminal or a put in a psychiatric ward.

    However the bible does tell you of a God sanctioning the killing of men women and little boys (but not the virgins). A god that sends a bear to kill children because they they tease a bald prophet. A god who demands human sacrifices.

    And you come here talking about morals and the conscience?

    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    In societies without the bible, there is total chaos and mayhem with people living utterly immoral unethical lives?

    How do you know their lives aren't immoral?  What is your evidence for the standard that you are using to judge that?


    Hold on. You said there will be no morals in a society without God. All I asked was if there was total chaos and mayhem in godless societies.

    You have to show and prove their lives are immoral and your definition of immoral.

    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Also I see people who do not know your god has no purpose in life? What evidence do you have of that?

    No, I said that there 'is' no purpose.  The fact that many people (including irrational atheists such as yourself) convince themselves that there is bears no relation to the objective reality that it doesn't exist.  Does God exist because I go around behaving like he does?


    I know you said there is NO purpose. Re-read what I wrote.

    You are mixing up a purpose in life or any purpose in any endeavour we undertake, with the irrational believe in a non-entity who you cannot prove exist.

    Life is a reality. Any sane person can envision a purpose for what they want to achieve in their lifetime. What they want to do. That is their purpose.

    Their life exists and the purpose to which they want to put their life also exists.

    You do not need Jehovah or Jesus in order to realise your purpose in life.

    However believing in a god who sends himself to get sacrificed by the people he created so he can forgive those people for the sins they commit against him IS IRRATIONAL.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #299 - January 27, 2009, 09:07 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Indeed.


    In which case I would urge you to read up on 'appeal to emotion' as a logical fallacy and how this approach will actually not lead you to what is true.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Then I'm afraid you have failed to convince me of that.

    I've responded to the issues you've raised and you have come back with nothing apart from asking the same questions over again.  'Convincing' you was never my aim.

    Quote from: Hassan
    How do I know the claims of Christianity are true? (Haven't we been here before?)

    We have and I've already explained some of my reasoning to you and your only response was 'well that's just ridiculous' which isn't an argument at all - but is actually remarkably consistent with the non-argument you have presented here also.

    That is also not the point of this thread.
    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote
    The question is 'what does the evidence best support' not 'what would make me happier'.


    Fine, but I see no evidence to support the claims of Christianity.

    Of course you don't but at least now hopefully you won't be 'reasoning' on the basis of your emotional reactions.  If that is so, then my purpose is done here.
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