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Theme Changer

 Topic: Readings from the "Holy Book"

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #450 - January 30, 2009, 11:46 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    What do you mean "Decide which one (Bible or Qur'an) best fits the evidence around me', Sparky?

    What evidence are you talking about? I don't understand.

    Everything.  What explanation pieces it all together the best.  And I said 'if either' - maybe it's neither of these.


    I still don't understand what you mean. I don't know what evidence you want me to compare to what passages of the Bible? Does it all have to fit or just some bits? Is it something that any sane and half intelligent person cannot fail to see? If it is then why doesn't everyone see it? If it is not, then how is it fair to punish them?

    Can you give me some examples of of the evidence around us that fits the Bible.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I understand you are happy with the fact that God offers a relationship with him and that relationship has some pretty terrible consequences if one breaks it.

    But can you understand why I am repelled by such an image of God?

    Not really, no.  If you reject a relationship with a person - that is what you get - no relationship.  If you reject a relationship with the creator of the world - that is also what you get - no relationship.  Just don't kid yourself that an experience of 'no relationship' is akin to living in the world that he made for you.  As soon as I think that a God of love should exist (which is what my conscience would point to), this is a natural corollary.  It's not love if the relationship is forced but if the relationship is rejected then why should I expect the experience will be pleasant?


    I simply don't understand what sort of logic or sense you see in this argument.

    You lost me a long time ago and I keep trying to understand - I really do - but I just can't make any sense of what you are saying.

    I see a God who kills babies and I find such a description repelling.

    Subjective or not - that is how I see it and call it.

    You seem to be saying there is some objective or undeniable truth there that I should see.

    But I just don't, Sparky - I read your sentences over and over again and I don't get what you mean.

    Isn't your belief based on subjective decisions by you - just as my disbelief is based on subjective decisions by me?

    You somehow rationalise what I see as a contradiction between claims of love and murdering babies.

    Fine!

    But how can you tell me that my decisions are wrong/emotional/irrational/subjective or whatever... and yours are not.

    How else am I to make a decision apart from the faculties I have.

    If I fall short and fail to see what you see - how is that my fault - why should I suffer eternal damnation by the God of "love"  - none of this makes any sense to me at all, Sparky.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Do I deserve eternal damnation as a result?

    I'm happy to let God decide that.


    If the God of the Bible existed (which of course I do not believe he does) then I would be damned.

    I wouldn't be happy for you to be damned - but you are happy for this God to do whatever he decides - even if that means torturing me forever?

    Thanks!

    Quote from: Hassan
    Yet I see nothing but violence, old myths, illogical doctrine, and beliefs that I have absolutely no reason to accept as being true.

    And I think you are being inconsistent in your criticism.  You argue against the violence on the basis of emotion which isn't a logical argument - and then you claim anything that isn't violent (and even might be construed as loving) is illogical ('three gods in one', 'god sending himself' etc).  It's hard to think that this inconsistency doesn't arise from some kind of emotional smokescreen.


    You say I am being illogical? But I see that rejecting a violent, bloodthirsty God who kills babies  - AND claims to be a God of Love - is logical.

    It seems to me that you are the one who is guilty of most of the things you accuse me and others of.

    It is illogical to accept this violence and call your God a God of "Love".

    The trinity is illogical.

    I see no consistency or logic in your arguments. You are actually the one who seems to be emotionally attached to a belief in a God that lacks real evidence - is illogical, inconsistent and indefensibly bloodthirsty.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #451 - January 30, 2009, 11:56 AM

    I didn't say that everyone's conscience was the same but that all consciences seem to reference an external, objective standard.  Either such a standard exists or we are all suffering from a delusion.

    I'm would have to accept that I'm deluded if that is the only option remaining or if that is proved to me.  As far as I can see at present, it isn't.

    Why a delusion? That's ridiculous. It's just an evolutionary quirk that seems to have been advantageous. You're putting far too much important on needing an 'objective' standard. A delusion perhaps?...

    A delusion because it appears to reference an objective standard that doesn't exist.

    And it is you who seems to be struggling with absence of an objective standard.  Otherwise, why would it be so difficult to talk about 'preferences' instead of 'right' and 'wrong'?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #452 - January 30, 2009, 12:08 PM


    Warning, if you don't want to end up tearing your hair out - don't argue with Sparky or any other Christian Fundy. You'll have more fun taking drugs and losing folicles that way.

    Thank you.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #453 - January 30, 2009, 12:14 PM


    A delusion because it appears to reference an objective standard that doesn't exist.

    And it is you who seems to be struggling with absence of an objective standard.  Otherwise, why would it be so difficult to talk about 'preferences' instead of 'right' and 'wrong'?


    In this case, is the Bible 'right' or 'wrong', or merely your preference?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #454 - January 30, 2009, 12:33 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    I still don't understand what you mean. I don't know what evidence you want me to compare to what passages of the Bible? Does it all have to fit or just some bits? Is it something that any sane and half intelligent person cannot fail to see? If it is then why doesn't everyone see it? If it is not, then how is it fair to punish them?

    Can you give me some examples of of the evidence around us that fits the Bible.

    Which is a different question.  You asked how to determine what is true.  I answered that.  I'm not going to try to prove Christianity to you.  Especially when evidence seems currently irrelevant to your decision-making.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You lost me a long time ago and I keep trying to understand - I really do - but I just can't make any sense of what you are saying.

    I don't really believe that at all.  If it were true, you would stick to a single question and then follow it through.  Instead of doing that, you ask a question, I answer it and then you ask a completely different question and say 'how does your explanation answer this question?'  It doesn't because that's a different question.

    You say that you are repelled by an image of a God that judges people who reject him.  I explain how that makes sense to me in the context of my experience of life and, in fact, doesn't repel me at all.  Then you ask a different question about God killing babies.  Which, of course, I have already answered previously.

    What is transparent is that this is little more than a continuous bait and switch tactic to avoid any kind of discussion at all.  We go in circles because that is what you are much happier doing than coming to a conclusion on any issue at all.  

    The same kind of evasion is evident in your desire to avoid describing yourself as attached to any view at all.  You like to say it's because you don't want to be labelled, but the reality is that you are simply afraid to defend what you believe in on rational grounds.

    This lack of interest in real discussion is also evident in the language you use.  A person who really wants to know if Christianity is true doesn't begin their search by using words like 'bloodthirsty', 'psycho' or 'repellent'.  It's really no different to the anti-muslim polemist who talked about the pedo-prophet all the time and pretends to be interested in understanding Islam.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Isn't your belief based on subjective decisions by you - just as my disbelief is based on subjective decisions by me?

    All beliefs are subjective because they happen inside your head.  The question is whether they can be shown to reference anything external.  Your evaluation of God's behaviour has no such external reference point.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You somehow rationalise what I see as a contradiction between claims of love and murdering babies.

    No I don't.  But your deliberate misrepresentation of my words reveals your motive quite clearly.

    Quote from: Hassan
    But how can you tell me that my decisions are wrong/emotional/irrational/subjective or whatever... and yours are not.

    Because that is what the arguments you have presented actually are!  Mine may also be, but that doesn't mean that somehow an emotional argument becomes a rational one.  If you want to reject Christianity on emotional grounds be my guest but just don't claim that it has any relevance to whether it is true or not.
    Quote from: Hassan
    If the God of the Bible existed (which of course I do not believe he does) then I would be damned.

    If you were dead, which you aren't.
    Quote from: Hassan
    I wouldn't be happy for you to be damned - but you are happy for this God to do whatever he decides

    Absolutely.  I trust his judgement far more than my own.  But no, that doesn't mean that I am 'happy for you to be damned'.

    Quote from: Hassan
    It is illogical to accept this violence and call your God a God of "Love".

    No it isn't but I'm not going to rehearse the arguments again.

    Quote from: Hassan
    The trinity is illogical

    And is, ironically, strongly tied to the idea of God being a God of love.  So, no surprises in this claim.  Of course the trinity isn't 'three gods in one' - another mispresentation in your video targeted to achieve your rhetorical aims.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I see no consistency or logic in your arguments. You are actually the one who seems to be emotionally attached to a belief in a God that lacks real evidence - is illogical, inconsistent and indefensibly bloodthirsty.

    Possibly I am.  It's just surprising then that you haven't been able to provide a single rational reason why he doesn't exist.

    But I am definitely done discussing with you.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #455 - January 30, 2009, 12:47 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    But how can you tell me that my decisions are wrong/emotional/irrational/subjective or whatever... and yours are not.

    ...Mine may also be...


    Then if your arguments are also emotional or subjective then why do you hold it against others that their arguments are emotional or subjective?

    And back to the question: How do you know Christianity is true?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #456 - January 30, 2009, 01:51 PM

    I didn't say that everyone's conscience was the same but that all consciences seem to reference an external, objective standard.  Either such a standard exists or we are all suffering from a delusion.

    I'm would have to accept that I'm deluded if that is the only option remaining or if that is proved to me.  As far as I can see at present, it isn't.

    Why a delusion? That's ridiculous. It's just an evolutionary quirk that seems to have been advantageous. You're putting far too much important on needing an 'objective' standard. A delusion perhaps?...

    A delusion because it appears to reference an objective standard that doesn't exist.

    And it is you who seems to be struggling with absence of an objective standard.  Otherwise, why would it be so difficult to talk about 'preferences' instead of 'right' and 'wrong'?

    Because right and wrong are also preferences.

    And I don't agree that the conscience references some objective standard. As I stated above it is subjective which serves an evolutionary purpose.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #457 - January 30, 2009, 02:26 PM

    I didn't say that everyone's conscience was the same but that all consciences seem to reference an external, objective standard.  Either such a standard exists or we are all suffering from a delusion.

    I'm would have to accept that I'm deluded if that is the only option remaining or if that is proved to me.  As far as I can see at present, it isn't.

    Why a delusion? That's ridiculous. It's just an evolutionary quirk that seems to have been advantageous. You're putting far too much important on needing an 'objective' standard. A delusion perhaps?...

    A delusion because it appears to reference an objective standard that doesn't exist.

    And it is you who seems to be struggling with absence of an objective standard.  Otherwise, why would it be so difficult to talk about 'preferences' instead of 'right' and 'wrong'?

    Because right and wrong are also preferences.

    And I don't agree that the conscience references some objective standard. As I stated above it is subjective which serves an evolutionary purpose.

    Give me a single example of 'right' or 'wrong' being used to describe a preference.

    When we say 'I prefer tea over coffee' - we don't mean 'tea is right and coffee is wrong'.  Nor do we mean that it is 'wrong' for us to drink coffee. Because preferences are defined to be subjective and relevant only to ourselves, we don't use 'right' and 'wrong' to describe them.  It would be complete nonsense.

    So when you say 'my conscience tells me what is right and wrong', I believe you - so does mine.  But that is clearly referencing an objective standard - even though it is experienced subjectively.  You could say 'my conscience tells me which behaviour I prefer and which I don't' and you would then need to explain why this is in any way different to a preference for a particular colour or flavour of ice cream.

    What is clear from your strong desire to continue to call something that you experience internally and that has no external reference point 'right' or 'wrong' is that you find that you are unable to live according to your own beliefs.  If I was you, I would think that a pretty good reason to think that your beliefs were wrong in some way.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #458 - January 30, 2009, 02:31 PM

    btw Sparky, I know you will say you have explained this before - but you haven't:

    I asked you; how am I supposed to know what is the truth?

    You said look at what best fits the evidence I see around me. 

    I said I don't know what that means, can you give me examples of the evidence around us that fits the Bible.

    You said; I'm not going to try to prove Christianity to you.  Especially when evidence seems currently irrelevant to your decision-making.

    How am I supposed to understand if you don't explain what you mean?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #459 - January 30, 2009, 02:46 PM

    Give me a single example of 'right' or 'wrong' being used to describe a preference.

    When we say 'I prefer tea over coffee' - we don't mean 'tea is right and coffee is wrong'.  Nor do we mean that it is 'wrong' for us to drink coffee. Because preferences are defined to be subjective and relevant only to ourselves, we don't use 'right' and 'wrong' to describe them.  It would be complete nonsense.

    So when you say 'my conscience tells me what is right and wrong', I believe you - so does mine.  But that is clearly referencing an objective standard - even though it is experienced subjectively.  You could say 'my conscience tells me which behaviour I prefer and which I don't' and you would then need to explain why this is in any way different to a preference for a particular colour or flavour of ice cream.

    What is clear from your strong desire to continue to call something that you experience internally and that has no external reference point 'right' or 'wrong' is that you find that you are unable to live according to your own beliefs.  If I was you, I would think that a pretty good reason to think that your beliefs were wrong in some way.

    Cheers,
    sparky

    'Anal sex is wrong'; that's an example of a subjective way to use the phrases. The person using it may be trying to put it across as an objective viewpoint because they cannot understand the need for anal as they feel it is disgusting but that the point of it when used in these circumstances.

    Another example is when people use those terms jokingly and are quite obviously referring to it as a subjective response.

    You really are just arguing semantics which are unimportant.

    The bit I bolded is where we disagree and probably why we wont reach an agreement in this area.

    Your last paragraph is just making huge generalisations and is completely incorrect.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #460 - January 30, 2009, 02:57 PM

    btw Sparky, I know you will say you have explained this before - but you haven't:

    I asked you; how am I supposed to know what is the truth?

    You said look at what best fits the evidence I see around me. 

    I said I don't know what that means, can you give me examples of the evidence around us that fits the Bible.


    You don't need examples from the bible to understand the point.  You might believe that the big bang happened because the evidence/data that we observe around us is best explained by such an event.  You might believe that the theory evolution is true because the evidence/data that we find is best explained by it.  You might believe your mother loved you because she told you and behaved consistently with that claim.  You might believe your car will start today because it started consistently on every day for that last year.

    In none of these cases, does how we 'feel' about the issue influence what is actually true.

    Hence there is reason to think that Christianity is true if that is what best explains the evidence.

    Quote from: Hassan
    How am I supposed to understand if you don't explain what you mean?

    If you had shown even the remotest effort to understand any of my previous posts or to follow through with a particular issue, I would believe that you were sincere.

    However, you haven't and I don't.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #461 - January 30, 2009, 03:02 PM

    Like I said, then we aren't talking about Christianity.  Christian belief is that Jesus actually was human - not that he was acting it.  The length of time concerned has no bearing on whether he was really human or not.

    You can bash your bastardized version of Christianity all you want.
     

    "Bastardized" eh? This guy comes from Heaven and most of His words show that He knew that He was going right back there, seems like a real stage act. He wasn't unaware of what would happen after His death, just like an actor on stage isn't unaware about what would happen after the curtain went down- just because most Christians have somehow convinced themselves that He was human doesn't mean anything to me, till some centuries ago, most Christians believed that "witches" should be killed and so should apostates that doesn't make those beliefs true either.

    From the way the Jesus story is presented, there seems a real similarity to a stage performance.


    What about other laws like the one about apostasy at Deuteronomy 13:1 when right after forbidding a symbolic reading, at 13:7-11 God commands people to kill their loved ones.The intent clearly is to prevent any apostasy, and your God also explicitly blocks a symbolic or partial reading.  If a  Jewish boy 2400 years ago came home excited after observing a celebration of Goddess Isis and told His father that the family should switch to worshipping Isis, maybe the father would spare his son out of love. Or he may proceed to stone him.

    Whatever, clearly your point about the stoning of a girl with a childhood injury had no basis.
     

    Funny why the point about stoning has no basis given the crystal clear God given laws sanctioning it. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your beliefs about Christianity believes rubbish- even when they use actual Biblical references to prove their point! You simply assume that it never happened that way. Yes that law was given to "men with minds" but what sort of minds? Some misogynist men or some not very bright men who simply carry out God's orders as stated would proceed to stone, just like many Middle East men stone armed with their God given laws , Many Medieval Christians did kill sorceresses  using the Bible as justification. Why should I assume that Ancient Israeli men were a lot kinder when they had similar laws and no Rabbinical Oral Laws to overrule them yet? Unless I'm desperate to believe in Christianity, overlooking all the bad in it?

    At least in this case, people such as you can search for an "intent" to proclaim that such stuff perhaps never happened. But I quoted that bit from the Deuteronomy to show that often, along with barbaric laws, God also blocks a symbolic or partial reading. The only response of a loving father as well as a devout Ancient Israeli to react to the suggestion would be to stone his son, if He loved YHWH more, or to disobey God, if he loved his child more. Remember, God explicitly asks to not read it symbolically, He doesn't give us other options.

    Quote from: Rashna
    If the father, otherwise a loving and committed parent proceeded to stone his son, I'd only have God to blame. As Noble Prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg, himself a Jew turned atheist says, "Religion is an insult to human dignity, without it you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion." Thus God given laws, which also block  a symbolic reading, would be responsible for a loving father stoning his son.Oorr, a committed Christian sanctioning the death of apostates, until they decided to interpret the Bible as fulfilled and the story of a disobedient son as basis for not killing apostates.

    What, exactly, in this paragraph is supposed to constitute an argument.  I found a friend shot on the streets of Kabul recently.  She was there as a charity worker with the disabled and said that she thought that is what God wanted her to do.  Am I supposed to think that she was doing something bad or lying about her religion just because Steven Weinberg said so?  As far as I can see, all people do both bad things and good things and some provide religious justification for them and some provide non-religious justification.  The fact that you think you are one of the 'good people' represents your self-deception, not mine.


    What sort of person I consider myself is irrelevant. I don't doubt your friend loves God, but other gods  have also provided motivation for many to do good deeds, there are loads of guys in Doctors without Borders who also do good. Agnosts like Bill Gates or atheists like Warren Buffet do good.  All my point was that some parts of religious Scripture can inspire bad like that bit about apostates from the OT, and it has caused a lot of harm. Any good Jew in the remote past, and any good Christian some time back could use it to commit murder. And don't go on about how atheism=communism, you've done that in other threads.

    Quote from: Rashna
    men slept with their wives handmaidens', war booties all, but obviously you are fine with the morals established by God.
    Then you have no grounds for claiming that it was 'God's morals' for them to do so.  God commanded them to love their neighbours and love the aliens living among them.  Sleeping with other women does not constitute love to your wife.  Actions prohibited do not constitute the sum total of God's commands to people.


    It might not constitute love to your wife but nowhere has God said so about all Israeli men,only about Rabbis.God as always keen on safeguarding the rights of men, says men may have two wives, and love one more than another, but they can't cheat their firstborn son out of his inheritance.A King shouldn't have many wives either, but God as usual blames women because wives can turn their hearts away from God. Jesus sure says that a man and his wife become "one fllesh" but the Koran too says that men and their wives are "garments' to each other.We can claim that three people don't become one flesh, just like two women can't share a garment. Some Muslim nations like Turkey and Tunisia have banned polygamy on this basis, while many African Churches sanction polygamy on the Bible's basis. Jesus' parable about the Ten Virgins can far more easily be regarded as a sanctioning of polygamy, than His story of the disobedient son can be regarded as tolerant of apostasy.

    That you read one story as an example of tolerance to apostates, and another as metaphorically speaking of the End Times is your problem, not ours. You mould the Bible to suit your morals, rather than the other way round, and then accuse us of speaking rubbish when we don't agree. That way the love of all can also be read as right to gay marriage, but you artfully dodge that one,giving what you believe are sensible  reasons.

    But the fact is, as I originally said, the arguments presented are not the same as those I have presented her regarding the Old Testament laws.

    Many American Christians are also woefully ignorant of the Bible's contents as well, and your arguments about the OT have failed to convince many ex Muslims here searching for the truth, who happen to be very knowledgable about Scripture. Just because you think something is a valid argument doesn't automatically make it so.However, it just might be that as the Koran says"our hearts are sealed", and we're too dense to get it.

    Now you are contradicting yourself.  You already said that he didn't command child sacrifice.

    I'm not, maybe because I don't see much of a difference between sacrificing a child to god and killing a child because he's infatuated with a different god and preaches to his or her parents about it. Its a painful death in both cases which is where the similarity lies, but of course you don't think so.

    As I argued before, if you want to claim they were 'unjust' you need to provide evidence for the standard you are using.  You liking them better or throwing around words like 'humane' and 'egalitarian' doesn't achieve that.

    The only relevant standard was the purpose that God was aiming to achieve with the Israelites, given the time in which they were living and the people they were.


    Standard means modern standard to me. Rights of women today, rights of apostates etc. The ancient Celts, the Ancient Egyptians, the Basque people(whom historian Strabo called "some sort of women's rule,not at all the mark of a high civilization) did better in these regards. There was no punishment for adding a new god to their gods, no laws regarding worshipping other gods in these cultures, and no mention of virginity in the entire ancient Egyptian language.

    And lots of posters have repeated what these standards are and where they come from, but you don't accept those explanations, I'm sure you won't accept mine either, as that is similar to what others have stated.

    No, and I've already given the reasons why.  An atheist has no external reference point for his morality and therefore has no rational argument to bring against anyone else's cultural practices at all.  I do.  

    And your reference point being? Cherry picking verses of the Bible, and reading more into some parables than is clearly expressed, while dismissing others' as allegorical and not to be taken literally? Believing something is true because the OT says so, then some years ingoring it according to the changing moral zeitgeist?

    If you believe Jesus got rid of anything remotely considered barbarous, refer to Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20-21 and John 7:19. That you interpret all these to mean something else today doesn't change the fact that till the beginnings of the last century,many Christians were convinced that apostasy deserves death. I'm sure at least both St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine had read the NT as well as OT. Both believed apostates required to be killed. Maybe they, like millions of other Christians of the past,were not as bright as you or today's Christians who can read a story about a disobedient son as speaking of apostasy...

    I really need to get back to my studies, and this isn't leading either of us anywhere.
    Respecting the forum as one for ex Muslims, I end with another Koranic quote "To you your religion, to me mine"


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #462 - January 30, 2009, 03:14 PM

    Give me a single example of 'right' or 'wrong' being used to describe a preference.

    When we say 'I prefer tea over coffee' - we don't mean 'tea is right and coffee is wrong'.  Nor do we mean that it is 'wrong' for us to drink coffee. Because preferences are defined to be subjective and relevant only to ourselves, we don't use 'right' and 'wrong' to describe them.  It would be complete nonsense.

    So when you say 'my conscience tells me what is right and wrong', I believe you - so does mine.  But that is clearly referencing an objective standard - even though it is experienced subjectively.  You could say 'my conscience tells me which behaviour I prefer and which I don't' and you would then need to explain why this is in any way different to a preference for a particular colour or flavour of ice cream.

    What is clear from your strong desire to continue to call something that you experience internally and that has no external reference point 'right' or 'wrong' is that you find that you are unable to live according to your own beliefs.  If I was you, I would think that a pretty good reason to think that your beliefs were wrong in some way.

    Cheers,
    sparky

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    'Anal sex is wrong'; that's an example of a subjective way to use the phrases. The person using it may be trying to put it across as an objective viewpoint because they cannot understand the need for anal as they feel it is disgusting but that the point of it when used in these circumstances.

    In other words, they just don't like it but cannot find any reason that it is 'wrong'.  If so, they shouldn't use 'wrong'.  It isn't 'wrong'.  What they are trying to say is that 'no-one should do it' - which is a universal claim and requires objective evidence.  Why else use the word 'wrong'?  If all they meant was 'I won't do it' - 'I don't like it' is more than adequate.

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    Another example is when people use those terms jokingly and are quite obviously referring to it as a subjective response.

    No, that isn't an example of 'wrong' referring to a preference.  And it generally isn't a good idea to take the meaning of words used when joking as their normal meanings.  If they are joking, they

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    You really are just arguing semantics which are unimportant.

    Both the examples you give reinforce the fact that the presumption is when someone says 'wrong' they are making a claim that references and objective standard.  And the meaning is rather significant.

    If 'rape is wrong' means no more than 'I don't like it' then there can be no rational reason that you can present that would make a person with a proclivity to rape think that he shouldn't do it.

    All moral discussion becomes no more than one person trying to manipulate the other into doing what they want.  All discussion of 'better' or 'worse' becomes entirely redundant.

    It is an utterly hopeless perspective (which, of course, doesn't mean that it isn't true).

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    The bit I bolded is where we disagree and probably why we wont reach an agreement in this area.

    Actually, I don't think we do disagree.  I think we both experience conscience in the same way.  The difference is that I am happy to be honest about what it is saying to me.

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    Your last paragraph is just making huge generalisations and is completely incorrect.

    Not at all.  It is evident from your desire to employ words to mean something other than they do when there are existing words that more than adequately capture the meaning you intend.

  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #463 - January 30, 2009, 03:24 PM

    Again you're making generalisations sparky. I don't believe my conscience is objective at all, you believe whatever you want though if it makes you happy.

    You're putting far too much significance on semantics and I cant be bothered with such a discussion as it is irrelevant to anything.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #464 - January 30, 2009, 03:28 PM

    I have a feeling Sparky doubts himself, which is the real reason he is here. Watch out Sparko - cuz Jesus is in your head and his dad takes no prisoners.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #465 - January 30, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Again you're making generalisations sparky. I don't believe my conscience is objective at all, you believe whatever you want though if it makes you happy.

    You're putting far too much significance on semantics and I cant be bothered with such a discussion as it is irrelevant to anything.

    I said (twice) that your conscience referenced an objective standard - not that it was objective.

    And calling it semantics is a cop out.  I have given several examples of the possible implications of your beliefs - none of which you have refuted.  I get the feeling that you'd just rather not think about it too deeply.  I'd probably feel the same way if I were you.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #466 - January 30, 2009, 04:04 PM

    I have a feeling Sparky doubts himself, which is the real reason he is here.


    Interesting theory....    Thinking hard

    Quote
    .. Hassan quote " But how can you tell me that my decisions are wrong .. subjective or whatever... and yours are not.

    Sparky quote "... Mine may also be"



    ..and when asked if he believed 100% in God and that he was 100% sure Christianity was God's religion, he chose to avoid answering the question.  And many others once drilled further.


    This may mean he is currently being tormented by, God forbid, agnostic thoughts and this is his release.   GoodVsBad

    That perhaps explains the reason he is here as he can relate to our thoughts & feelings.  Its better than adding wind to an ex-Christian website, and he justifies it to himself (and to God) that he may brainwash a few cerebrally vacant individuals in the meantime

    I know as an ex-muslim, the last place I would like to reside is on a Christian website?

    I do not understand, maybe Sparky can explain it to us. 


    P.S Rashna - are you really 14?

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #467 - January 30, 2009, 04:12 PM

    I have a feeling Sparky doubts himself, which is the real reason he is here.


    Interesting theory....    Thinking hard

    Quote
    .. Hassan quote " But how can you tell me that my decisions are wrong .. subjective or whatever... and yours are not.

    Sparky quote "... Mine may also be"



    ..and when asked if he believed 100% in God and that he was 100% sure Christianity was God's religion, he chose to avoid answering the question.


    This may mean he is currently being tormented by, God forbid, agnostic thoughts and this is his release.   GoodVsBad

    That perhaps explains the reason he is here as he can relate to our thoughts & feelings.  Its better than adding wind to an ex-Christian website, and he justifies it to himself (and to God) that he may brainwash a few cerebrally vacant individuals in the meantime

    I know as an ex-muslim, the last place I would like to reside is on a Christian website?

    I do not understand, maybe Sparky can explain it to us. 




    Indeed. I doubt it though. 'My faith is unbending blah blah' Then again, why are you here Sparky? Do you just like arguing?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #468 - January 30, 2009, 04:15 PM

    Again you're making generalisations sparky. I don't believe my conscience is objective at all, you believe whatever you want though if it makes you happy.

    You're putting far too much significance on semantics and I cant be bothered with such a discussion as it is irrelevant to anything.

    I said (twice) that your conscience referenced an objective standard - not that it was objective.

    And calling it semantics is a cop out.  I have given several examples of the possible implications of your beliefs - none of which you have refuted.  I get the feeling that you'd just rather not think about it too deeply.  I'd probably feel the same way if I were you.

    It's not referencing any objective standard (which is what I am disagreeing with) and if you're going to make such a claim at least provide some evidence.

    Calling it semantics isn't a cop out at all. You're just arguing about the use of language which I honestly couldn't give a crap about. I see it as subjective as do most who actually think about it, people may want it to mean objective sometimes but that doesn't mean it is.

    You're right, I don't want to want to think about it too deeply but that's because it is highly irrelevant and also very boring. There's better things to debate about then what choice of words people like to use.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #469 - January 30, 2009, 04:18 PM


    You're right, I don't want to want to think about it too deeply but that's because it is highly irrelevant and also very boring. There's better things to debate about then what choice of words people like to use.



    Not for people who are losing their faith and are desperately scrubbing up Wink

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #470 - January 30, 2009, 04:21 PM

    Still the same old cracked record, Sparklet. Let's make it easy for you so you don't have to use half a dozen sentences where one or two words will do. Lets go back to the beginning:

    Give us some real (I'll not use objective since you seem to have problems with the word) hard evidence for 'your god'. And don't labour us with your usual crap about what you feel and what's inside your head, as you usually do when cornered.

    Please try to edit the flatulence out of your posts too- stream of consciousness is all very well if you're on the same wavelength as everyone else, but you're clearly not.

    I know it must be difficult for someone whose thoughts are leg-ironed by that mouldy old book but please try not to refer to it. I'm sure you can do it if you try.

    I've even made it easier for you to dissect this post like an insect, in that annoying way you've got, but , doubtless, you'll dissect the disections.

    So. Evidence?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #471 - January 30, 2009, 04:46 PM

    Yeah Islame I'm really 14.14 years, 3months to be precise. I study at a Christian boarding school where the Bible is compulsory even for for us non Christian students.To make matters worse, we're marked on it. Our Bible teacher who can put Shaneequa to shame starts every class with, " Imagine the pain Jesus went through on the Cross. Imagine yourself in that position, with nails dug in your palms. Who amongst us humans is capable of such a sacrifice?" Our teacher criticizes all faiths, although Islam is her "pet hate." One day when I had not learnt up my lessons, she began to criticize the Ancient Iranian Zoroastrians as(amongst other things) intolerant, saying that they didn't let those ancient Iranians convert to Christianity. Funny for a Christian, because even though the Zoroastrians had been intolerant when killing Prophet Mani, King Cyrus a Zoroastrian had returned the Jews' their lands.

    And talk of the pot calling the pitcher black.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #472 - January 30, 2009, 05:00 PM

    Yeah Islame I'm really 14.14 years, 3months to be precise. I study at a Christian boarding school where the Bible is compulsory even for for us non Christian students.To make matters worse, we're marked on it. Our Bible teacher who can put Shaneequa to shame starts every class with, " Imagine the pain Jesus went through on the Cross. Imagine yourself in that position, with nails dug in your palms. Who amongst us humans is capable of such a sacrifice?" Our teacher criticizes all faiths, although Islam is her "pet hate." One day when I had not learnt up my lessons, she began to criticize the Ancient Iranian Zoroastrians as(amongst other things) intolerant, saying that they didn't let those ancient Iranians convert to Christianity. Funny for a Christian, because even though the Zoroastrians had been intolerant when killing Prophet Mani, King Cyrus a Zoroastrian had returned the Jews' their lands.

    And talk of the pot calling the pitcher black.



    You're a smart cookie for fourteen Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #473 - January 30, 2009, 05:05 PM

     Welcome, by the way, Rashna.
    They're really strange bible teachers, as you've probably already realised from this thread.
    When I was at school about your age, our BT used to pull our ties to half throttle us (just the boys mind) and chalk all over our faces for fun; again, just the boys. The next time I heard of him was 35 years later and he was and is the vicar of my mother's church. I hope he dies before she does otherwise I might just feel constrained to give his little dog collar a good hoicking at her funeral.
    I'm a double-dyed athiest but it keeps the family quiet if I fall asleep in a church for weddings, funerals and, yes, even christenings. I try not to look, but a good sing's good for the lungs.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #474 - January 30, 2009, 05:09 PM

    Sparky, if your cover has been blown, this site welcomes ex-Christians too?

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #475 - January 30, 2009, 05:41 PM

    there is reason to think that Christianity is true if that is what best explains the evidence.


    This is what I want you to explain, Sparky.

    You keep saying that - in your view - Christianity best fits the evidence around you - but you don't seem to want to give me any concrete examples.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #476 - January 30, 2009, 05:50 PM

    why are you here Sparky? Do you just like arguing?


    He told me he was here to call out all the inaccurate statements about Christianity.

    He sort of like Jesus' lawyer.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #477 - January 30, 2009, 05:57 PM

    Yeah Islame I'm really 14.14 years, 3months to be precise. I study at a Christian boarding school where the Bible is compulsory even for for us non Christian students.To make matters worse, we're marked on it. Our Bible teacher who can put Shaneequa to shame starts every class with, " Imagine the pain Jesus went through on the Cross. Imagine yourself in that position, with nails dug in your palms. Who amongst us humans is capable of such a sacrifice?" Our teacher criticizes all faiths, although Islam is her "pet hate." One day when I had not learnt up my lessons, she began to criticize the Ancient Iranian Zoroastrians as(amongst other things) intolerant, saying that they didn't let those ancient Iranians convert to Christianity. Funny for a Christian, because even though the Zoroastrians had been intolerant when killing Prophet Mani, King Cyrus a Zoroastrian had returned the Jews' their lands.

    And talk of the pot calling the pitcher black.


    Wow, Rashna - only 14!

    I'm really impressed by your posts!  Afro

    LOL @ your Christian teacher, she is doing a much better job of putting the young minds in her care off Christianity better than any atheist could. Kids remember stuff like that.

    Oh and btw - Welcome to the forum!  Smiley
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #478 - January 30, 2009, 06:05 PM

    He told me he was here to call out all the inaccurate statements about Christianity.

    He sort of like Jesus' lawyer.

    Jesus best get another lawyer, this one only deals with circumstantial evidence

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #479 - January 30, 2009, 07:29 PM

    It's been a while now since he last posted, so I'm opening a book on whether he's in a huff or not. It's even money he is, 3 - 1 he isn't, and 5/6 on that he'll now come back and say 'I'm not in a huff.'

    Queue up in an orderly fashion... Smiley

    Ha Ha.
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