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 Topic: Do you believe in Nothing?

 (Read 9801 times)
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  • Do you believe in Nothing?
     OP - January 12, 2009, 06:32 PM

    I have a hard time believing in the concept of nothing.

    But we are ultimately faced with the choice in believing in one of two boggling concepts. Nothingness (existence has physical boundaries which are somehow surrounded by nothingness) or Infinite existence (meaning that behind every wall there will always be something.)

    Now the bible will tell us that in the beginning there was nothing (except god). So how long did God sit around amongst nothing doing nothing before he started making stuff?

    But I digress. Lets forget about the Bible for now. Everything derived from our limited human experience lends us to believe that time has never stopped and we have no reason to believe it ever will or can. (Yes the light that we can see from certain stars was emitted in the past and has taken time to get to us, so in a sense we can look back into history but time did not reverse, it moves on.) No matter how far ahead in the future you wish to point at, I can point to the day after that. Reversely no matter how distant in the past you wish to point to, I can point to the day before that. Same concept can apply to space. So now we can all agree that time and space is infinite. (OK, my arguments are not infallible but the its better than nothing.)

    Now look how man is constantly evolving. Do we have any reason to believe this evolution is not infinite also? So if evolution is infinite and time is infinite then it is only logical that man can evolve into God.

    If there are billions of stars and say a one in a million chance those stars have planets that can sustain life then odds are that there are millions or billions or an infinite amount of planets that have produced life. If history is infinite then it is likely that some of those beings have already gone through the evolutionary stages we are currently in and have successfully evolved into life creating beings themselves (Gods?). So perhaps we were created by them and it is not so far fetched to think that man was created in Gods image because Man comes from God and God comes from man.

    If God came from man then it makes sense that God would not want to waste time developing beings whose individual banks of knowledge and experience are disposable upon the expiration of the flesh. It makes better sense to create beings whose inner growth can be built upon. God may want to store that growth in some sort of vessel, perhaps a soul (for a lack of a better word) that could be transferred to a higher form of life when that soul has met some criteria deemed essential to move up a level. That way the individual can benefit from previous experience and advancements used as a foundation for future growth, a growth that could be infinite.

    I am high.

    B :)B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #1 - January 12, 2009, 06:56 PM

    Welcome Bob - I will need to digest all that in a bit - I'm off to have a cuppa and watch Ch 4 News.

    Welcome again to the forum Smiley
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #2 - January 12, 2009, 09:18 PM

    I have a hard time believing in the concept of nothing.

    But we are ultimately faced with the choice in believing in one of two boggling concepts. Nothingness (existence has physical boundaries which are somehow surrounded by nothingness) or Infinite existence (meaning that behind every wall there will always be something.)

    Now the bible will tell us that in the beginning there was nothing (except god). So how long did God sit around amongst nothing doing nothing before he started making stuff?

    But I digress. Lets forget about the Bible for now. Everything derived from our limited human experience lends us to believe that time has never stopped and we have no reason to believe it ever will or can. (Yes the light that we can see from certain stars was emitted in the past and has taken time to get to us, so in a sense we can look back into history but time did not reverse, it moves on.) No matter how far ahead in the future you wish to point at, I can point to the day after that. Reversely no matter how distant in the past you wish to point to, I can point to the day before that. Same concept can apply to space. So now we can all agree that time and space is infinite. (OK, my arguments are not infallible but the its better than nothing.)

    Now look how man is constantly evolving. Do we have any reason to believe this evolution is not infinite also? So if evolution is infinite and time is infinite then it is only logical that man can evolve into God.

    If there are billions of stars and say a one in a million chance those stars have planets that can sustain life then odds are that there are millions or billions or an infinite amount of planets that have produced life. If history is infinite then it is likely that some of those beings have already gone through the evolutionary stages we are currently in and have successfully evolved into life creating beings themselves (Gods?). So perhaps we were created by them and it is not so far fetched to think that man was created in Gods image because Man comes from God and God comes from man.

    If God came from man then it makes sense that God would not want to waste time developing beings whose individual banks of knowledge and experience are disposable upon the expiration of the flesh. It makes better sense to create beings whose inner growth can be built upon. God may want to store that growth in some sort of vessel, perhaps a soul (for a lack of a better word) that could be transferred to a higher form of life when that soul has met some criteria deemed essential to move up a level. That way the individual can benefit from previous experience and advancements used as a foundation for future growth, a growth that could be infinite.

    I am high.

    B :)B



    You make it all sound so fascinating Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #3 - January 12, 2009, 09:23 PM

    We can tell you're high but I do think you've got the makings of a good science fiction series there.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #4 - January 12, 2009, 10:08 PM

    Yes you definitely make it sound very interesting... and who knows! you could even be right  bunny
    With all the theories floating about since mankind ventured into philosophical waters, i'm sure someone has hit on the truth or atleast come close to it.

    I do like the concept of us evolving into Gods and that there are many Gods that might exist... beings that transformed into that stage...
    We have made great advances, but humans still seem to be in an infantile stage in many ways.. one of these being the need for religion and our concept of 'God'. It is a parent-child relationship... with religion and God telling us everything we can or cannot do and we must follow it... Many people seem incapable of being good and humane without a fearsome authority to command them to do so or threaten them with torture.
    Even in normal society, we need extensive laws, traffic signals, CCTV etc. We seem incapable of governing ourselves by cultivating an inherent code of ethics and morals. Without someone telling us what to do or keep us in check, we descend into anarchy.

    I think when we all learn to be 'good' without the fear of hell or prison or punishment, then mankind will have reached a new and momentous stage in enlightenment.

  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #5 - January 13, 2009, 12:06 AM

    CocoPop
    If your relatives the Prokaryotes could see you discussing ethics and morals and governence, they would be very proud of what their offspring has amounted to. We have no reaon to believe your offspring can not advance just as impressively.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote

    I wasn't really high. Those days are few and far between now, but I might have been when it first crossed my mind. Science fiction writing is a legitimate career path to prophethood nowadays. It worked for L Ron Hubbard.

    B :dance:B

    What am I doing wrong with these happy faces?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #6 - January 15, 2009, 06:27 AM

    CocoPop
    If your relatives the Prokaryotes could see you discussing ethics and morals and governence, they would be very proud of what their offspring has amounted to. We have no reaon to believe your offspring can not advance just as impressively.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote

    I wasn't really high. Those days are few and far between now, but I might have been when it first crossed my mind. Science fiction writing is a legitimate career path to prophethood nowadays. It worked for L Ron Hubbard.

    B :dance:B

    What am I doing wrong with these happy faces?


    Let me try, Bob. I think you wrote B :dance:B and the B at the end was close to the colon.

    B dance B

    BMZ
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #7 - January 15, 2009, 01:00 PM

    I've always wondered, if we managed to create a universe would that make us Gods?
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #8 - January 15, 2009, 01:43 PM

    when that soul has met some criteria deemed essential to move up a level


    That was a very interesting read Bob.

    The quote above reminded me of a problem I have with seeing this life as a place where we gain some sort of enlightenment or knowledge or even useful experience.

    Because there are so many people who die without ever - seemingly - reaching enlightenment. In fact many people die the same ignorant, nasty, stupid bastard they were when they were born.

    I need to believe that this life gives us 'something' - that it is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe this sort of evolution of the soul or even simply to believe there is something beyond our death and that this life had a meaning related to it.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #9 - January 15, 2009, 05:39 PM


    I need to believe that this life gives us 'something' - that it is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe this sort of evolution of the soul or even simply to believe there is something beyond our death and that this life had a meaning related to it.



    And how do you go about that need?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #10 - January 15, 2009, 08:22 PM

    Yes you definitely make it sound very interesting... and who knows! you could even be right  bunny
    With all the theories floating about since mankind ventured into philosophical waters, i'm sure someone has hit on the truth or atleast come close to it.

    I do like the concept of us evolving into Gods and that there are many Gods that might exist... beings that transformed into that stage...
    We have made great advances, but humans still seem to be in an infantile stage in many ways.. one of these being the need for religion and our concept of 'God'. It is a parent-child relationship... with religion and God telling us everything we can or cannot do and we must follow it... Many people seem incapable of being good and humane without a fearsome authority to command them to do so or threaten them with torture.
    Even in normal society, we need extensive laws, traffic signals, CCTV etc. We seem incapable of governing ourselves by cultivating an inherent code of ethics and morals. Without someone telling us what to do or keep us in check, we descend into anarchy.

    I think when we all learn to be 'good' without the fear of hell or prison or punishment, then mankind will have reached a new and momentous stage in enlightenment.


    Very true.  I am optimistic we will get there, eventually, although it will never be perfect.  We were designed to be selfish beings, Darwins theory proves it. 

    I hope too one day we reach enlightenment, and we wonder how we let mothers see their children slowly die of starvation, whilst we happily gorged ourselves on Big Macs.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #11 - January 16, 2009, 11:27 AM

    Hass, you say you 'need' to believe in something - what happens if you don't? And as you need to believe - what do you believe?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #12 - January 16, 2009, 01:03 PM

    Hass, you say you 'need' to believe in something - what happens if you don't? And as you need to believe - what do you believe?


    I meant I need to believe that this life is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe in the evolution of the soul or that there is something beyond death.

    I don't actually need to believe in something.

    People often say that this life is just one stage on a long road. But to make that true imho then this 'stage' has to have some 'benefit' or 'take you up a level' - otherwise why is this stage here?

    I need to be convinced that we all do really learn and benefit from our journey through this life - but I am not convinced. Many people, as I said - are just as pig ignorant when they die as when they were born.

    That's what I meant.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #13 - January 16, 2009, 01:15 PM

    Hass, you say you 'need' to believe in something - what happens if you don't? And as you need to believe - what do you believe?


    I meant I need to believe that this life is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe in the evolution of the soul or that there is something beyond death.

    I don't actually need to believe in something.

    People often say that this life is just one stage on a long road. But to make that true imho then this 'stage' has to have some 'benefit' or 'take you up a level' - otherwise why is this stage here?

    I need to be convinced that we all do really lean and benefit from this life - but I am not convinced. Many people, as I said - are just as pig ignorant when they die as when they were born.

    That's what I meant.


    Hassan,
    That is where free will comes in, it is upto individual to learn the lesson. Some people learn a lot and moves up (I don't know where is this up? ) And some ppl die as pig ignorant as you say as they were born.


    I feel this life is like mother's womb and there can be a long road ahead. And yes, this is a personal hunch and no way I can prove it. But, I like to optimistic and think that my life is meaningful as it imparts some benefit to me.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #14 - January 16, 2009, 01:36 PM

    Hass, you say you 'need' to believe in something - what happens if you don't? And as you need to believe - what do you believe?


    I meant I need to believe that this life is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe in the evolution of the soul or that there is something beyond death.

    I don't actually need to believe in something.

    People often say that this life is just one stage on a long road. But to make that true imho then this 'stage' has to have some 'benefit' or 'take you up a level' - otherwise why is this stage here?

    I need to be convinced that we all do really lean and benefit from this life - but I am not convinced. Many people, as I said - are just as pig ignorant when they die as when they were born.

    That's what I meant.


    Hassan,
    That is where free will comes in, it is upto individual to learn the lesson. Some people learns a lot and moves up (I don't know where is this up? ) And some ppl dies as pig ignorant as you say as they were born.


    I feel this life is like mother's womb and there can be a long road ahead. And yes, this is a personal hunch and no way I can prove it. But, I like to optimistic and think that my life is meaningful as it imparts some benefit to me.


    I like to think so too L2bC, but it puzzles me sometimes when I see people who should have learnt at least a little wisdom are just still so blind.

    And I don't make myself an exception. I'm going to be 50 this year and I really do feel more confused about life than I ever was lol

    I wrote these lines from a poem a few years back while I was still a Muslim:

    Once I climbed a tree
    There, hidden by the twisting, leafy branches
    A nest full of open, shrieking, yellow beaks
    Ugly black, bulging eyes
    I nearly fell from that fragile height

    The world was full of limitless adventure
    And I was the first explorer
    Treading upon virgin soil
    I discovered secret lands
    And solved the mysteries of life

    Once I sat with dear friends
    Excitedly we searched for answers
    And, naively, found them all too easily
    Impetuous youth, would that it could return?
    But one cannot unlearn what one has learnt

    Now the debates bore me
    And life is a greater mystery than it ever was
    And nothing is clear, bar the fact
    That the answer will never be found here
    And son of Adam never changes

  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #15 - January 16, 2009, 01:54 PM

    Hassan,
    In my opinion, you have learnt a lot lot from life. And you are one wonderful person.
    Learning is not about getting all answers, knowing all rights and wrong. It is about experiencing life and becoming a better person.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #16 - January 16, 2009, 01:59 PM

    I meant I need to believe that this life is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe in the evolution of the soul or that there is something beyond death.

    People often say that this life is just one stage on a long road. But to make that true imho then this 'stage' has to have some 'benefit' or 'take you up a level' - otherwise why is this stage here?

    I need to be convinced that we all do really learn and benefit from our journey through this life - but I am not convinced. Many people, as I said - are just as pig ignorant when they die as when they were born.


    In keeping with your chain of thoughts, and if some "are just as pig ignorant", couldn't this stage just be a way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff?  I know I am veering, unconsciously, closer to religion with that comment.  

    But the unenlightened could always come back to earth in another form, like Groundhog day, until they too eventually reach enlightenment.

    It would be nice to think that anyway..

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #17 - January 16, 2009, 02:09 PM

    I meant I need to believe that this life is 'necessary' in some way, in order to believe in the evolution of the soul or that there is something beyond death.

    People often say that this life is just one stage on a long road. But to make that true imho then this 'stage' has to have some 'benefit' or 'take you up a level' - otherwise why is this stage here?

    I need to be convinced that we all do really learn and benefit from our journey through this life - but I am not convinced. Many people, as I said - are just as pig ignorant when they die as when they were born.


    In keeping with your chain of thoughts, and if some "are just as pig ignorant", couldn't this stage just be a way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff?  I know I am veering, unconsciously, closer to religion with that comment.  

    But the unenlightened could always come back to earth in another form, like Groundhog day, until they too eventually reach enlightenment.

    It would be nice to think that anyway..


    Well I guess that's one reason why reincarnation can be quite an attractive idea to some.

  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #18 - January 16, 2009, 02:13 PM

    re-incarnation fits with evolution of soul etc. But, the idea seems objectional to me when ppl see a suffering infant and thinks it is because it had bad karma in past life. It is a very negative life view. On the other hand I like Islamic view of suffering, that Life is a test.

    One one side, we have eternal hell for non believers, on other side we have cold reason for suffering of ppl. I don't like to take either. So, I think there will be something after I die, what will be there is irrelevant and I have to give best to this life.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #19 - January 16, 2009, 02:18 PM

    re-incarnation fits with evolution of soul etc. But, the idea seems objectional to me when ppl see a suffering infant and thinks it is because it had bad karma in past life. It is a very negative life view. On the other hand I like Islamic view of suffering, that Life is a test.

    One one side, we have eternal hell for non believers, on other side we have cold reason for suffering of ppl. I don't like to take either. So, I think there will be something after I die, what will be there is irrelevant and I have to give best to this life.


    Thats true - not sure how we can ever justify the grief & bad luck some are born with.

    However its interesting that Hassan draws parallels to reincarnation, as enlightenment is also close to the concept of nirvana!

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #20 - January 16, 2009, 02:25 PM

    You are right. And I do like that optimism in re-incarnation idea. Mostly all ancient eastern thinkers believed in universal salvation. That everyone of us will get enlighten one day, so what if someone missed one chance. And that optimism is better than eternal damnation.

    re-incarnation fits with evolution of soul etc. But, the idea seems objectional to me when ppl see a suffering infant and thinks it is because it had bad karma in past life. It is a very negative life view. On the other hand I like Islamic view of suffering, that Life is a test.

    One one side, we have eternal hell for non believers, on other side we have cold reason for suffering of ppl. I don't like to take either. So, I think there will be something after I die, what will be there is irrelevant and I have to give best to this life.


    Thats true - not sure how we can ever justify the grief & bad luck some are born with.

    However its interesting that Hassan draws parallels to reincarnation, as enlightenment is also close to the concept of nirvana!

  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #21 - January 16, 2009, 02:30 PM

    What if everything in this universe is an illusion? Would that mean anything for religion or the idea of a soul?
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #22 - January 16, 2009, 02:33 PM

    Yes you definitely make it sound very interesting... and who knows! you could even be right  bunny
    With all the theories floating about since mankind ventured into philosophical waters, i'm sure someone has hit on the truth or atleast come close to it.

    I do like the concept of us evolving into Gods and that there are many Gods that might exist... beings that transformed into that stage...
    We have made great advances, but humans still seem to be in an infantile stage in many ways.. one of these being the need for religion and our concept of 'God'. It is a parent-child relationship... with religion and God telling us everything we can or cannot do and we must follow it... Many people seem incapable of being good and humane without a fearsome authority to command them to do so or threaten them with torture.
    Even in normal society, we need extensive laws, traffic signals, CCTV etc. We seem incapable of governing ourselves by cultivating an inherent code of ethics and morals. Without someone telling us what to do or keep us in check, we descend into anarchy.

    I think when we all learn to be 'good' without the fear of hell or prison or punishment, then mankind will have reached a new and momentous stage in enlightenment.


    Very true.  I am optimistic we will get there, eventually, although it will never be perfect.  We were designed to be selfish beings, Darwins theory proves it. 

    I hope too one day we reach enlightenment, and we wonder how we let mothers see their children slowly die of starvation, whilst we happily gorged ourselves on Big Macs.

    Sorry to start with a slight criticism IsLame: If there's one thing that Darwin's theory does not prove, it's the idea of life being designed. In fact, that's the whole point of it; life evolves, in whatever direction the vagaries of selective pressures allow it to proceed. The only exceptions are where we deliberately apply directional selective pressures to develop new strains of plants and animals for our use.
     So, in relation to all species, which appear to be parts of an interconnected continuum, I can't see that the concept 'good and bad' really apply. It's more of a case of what works for optimum survival function that counts.
    But in the case of humans and their consciousness, also an evolving trait, I can't see that we'll ever reach an endpoint called 'enlightenment', unless you're willing to see 'satisfaction' as being synonymous. Quite alot of folk achieve satisfaction.

    Evolution is a continuing journey and whatever we vaingloriously think about the human ability to bilk what we tend to see as the 'bad ' aspects of it, namely the 4 horsemen,we never quite make it because something unforseen always happens/evolves to undermine our best efforts.The continuing struggle between the devmpt of medicines (anti-biotics say) and the evoln of new bacterial strains is a good eg here.
    If you must have a point to life its possibly that 'We're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere.' I personally don't need any other 'point'.

    In one sense, we are gods. I say that because we are able to 'create' gods that satisfy our need for order, continuity, comfort, etc. So we are able to oversee that which we perceive as essential to mental well being, both individually and collectively.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #23 - January 16, 2009, 04:25 PM

    What about 'Mummy'?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #24 - January 16, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Very true.  I am optimistic we will get there, eventually, although it will never be perfect.  We were designed to be selfish beings, Darwins theory proves it. 
    I hope too one day we reach enlightenment, and we wonder how we let mothers see their children slowly die of starvation, whilst we happily gorged ourselves on Big Macs.


    Sorry to start with a slight criticism IsLame: If there's one thing that Darwin's theory does not prove, it's the idea of life being designed. In fact, that's the whole point of it; life evolves, in whatever direction the vagaries of selective pressures allow it to proceed. The only exceptions are where we deliberately apply directional selective pressures to develop new strains of plants and animals for our use.
     So, in relation to all species, which appear to be parts of an interconnected continuum, I can't see that the concept 'good and bad' really apply. It's more of a case of what works for optimum survival function that counts.
    But in the case of humans and their consciousness, also an evolving trait, I can't see that we'll ever reach an endpoint called 'enlightenment', unless you're willing to see 'satisfaction' as being synonymous. Quite alot of folk achieve satisfaction.

    Evolution is a continuing journey and whatever we vaingloriously think about the human ability to bilk what we tend to see as the 'bad ' aspects of it, namely the 4 horsemen,we never quite make it because something unforseen always happens/evolves to undermine our best efforts.The continuing struggle between the devmpt of medicines (anti-biotics say) and the evoln of new bacterial strains is a good eg here.

    In one sense, we are gods. I say that because we are able to 'create' gods that satisfy our need for order, continuity, comfort, etc. So we are able to oversee that which we perceive as essential to mental well being, both individually and collectively.


    Darwin's world is based on self-preservation, even if it requires us to savage our competition - that is what I meant by selfish by design. 

    I like your point about us being Gods, or even the God of Gods, given that we created him.

    I have only ever gone as far to say  "I the Daddy".

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #25 - January 16, 2009, 04:46 PM

    What about 'Mummy'?


    Depends on whether I am wearing my bra, or not

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #26 - January 16, 2009, 06:28 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Darwin's world is based on self-preservation, even if it requires us to savage our competition - that is what I meant by selfish by design.


    Do you mean Social Darwinism, or evolution? 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #27 - January 16, 2009, 08:30 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Darwin's world is based on self-preservation, even if it requires us to savage our competition - that is what I meant by selfish by design.


    Do you mean Social Darwinism, or evolution? 

    Evolution i think, not sure what Social Darwinism is..

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #28 - January 16, 2009, 08:32 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Darwin's world is based on self-preservation, even if it requires us to savage our competition - that is what I meant by selfish by design.


    Do you mean Social Darwinism, or evolution? 

    Evolution i think, not sure what Social Darwinism is..


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

    What you've said doesn't really sound like evolution, that's why I wondered.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #29 - January 16, 2009, 08:37 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Darwin's world is based on self-preservation, even if it requires us to savage our competition - that is what I meant by selfish by design.


    Do you mean Social Darwinism, or evolution? 

    Evolution i think, not sure what Social Darwinism is..


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

    What you've said doesn't really sound like evolution, that's why I wondered.


    Yes, Darwinian theory i.e. natural selection

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