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 Topic: 72 Virgins

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  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #30 - January 19, 2009, 12:53 AM

    Don't worry, Baal. Iggy is doing Teh Tackyya. cool2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #31 - January 19, 2009, 02:29 AM

    so what awaits women in heaven? more men to serve?  Roll Eyes


    ahem... anyone?



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #32 - January 19, 2009, 04:58 AM

    so what awaits women in heaven? more men to serve?  Roll Eyes


    ahem... anyone?

    yes, men to service. Wink

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #33 - January 19, 2009, 05:07 AM

    EDIT: My main issue with Taqqiya, is that in islam, it is permitted and encouraged by scripture. When in most other religions they have to do it only as a last resort out of necessity and embarrassment

    Huh? I remember learning the complete opposite. You should never, ever deny your faith, no matter what. Remember Sumayyah bint Khayyat?

    Same here. You're only allowed to conceal your beliefs when under threat of death, like the Inquisition. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #34 - January 19, 2009, 07:55 AM

    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.2272_Virgins.22

    However, the arguement that Hur al-'Ayn are white grapes falls on it's ass when this is read:

    Quote
    "(For the dwellers of paradise will be) Houris restrained in pavilions... Whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens before them." Qur'an 55:72-74

    "...and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes." Qur'an 44:54, 52:20

    "...A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle...." Sunan at-Tirmidhi

    Almost inspires me to be pious  Wink.



    Just quote me the hadith, which talks about 72 virgins. I don't find anything of the sort in those links. Can you do that? 

    BMZ
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #35 - January 19, 2009, 08:05 AM

    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks


    Just quote me the hadith, which talks about 72 virgins. I don't find anything of the sort in those links. Can you do that?

    It should be the first thing you see in the link.

    Quote
    The concept of 72 virgins in Islam refers to an aspect of paradise. In a collection by Imam at-Tirmidhi in his "Sunan" (Volume IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Qur'anic Commentary) of Surah Qur'an 55:72, it is stated that:

    "It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.'


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #36 - January 19, 2009, 08:06 AM

    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.2272_Virgins.22

    However, the arguement that Hur al-'Ayn are white grapes falls on it's ass when this is read:

    Quote
    "(For the dwellers of paradise will be) Houris restrained in pavilions... Whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens before them." Qur'an 55:72-74

    "...and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes." Qur'an 44:54, 52:20

    "...A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle...." Sunan at-Tirmidhi

    Almost inspires me to be pious  Wink.



    Just quote me the hadith, which talks about 72 virgins. I don't find anything of the sort in those links. Can you do that? 

    BMZ


    This is from the wikipedia link provided:


    The concept of 72 virgins in Islam refers to an aspect of paradise. In a collection by Imam at-Tirmidhi in his "Sunan" (Volume IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Qur'anic Commentary) of Surah Qur'an 55:72, it is stated that:

        "It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.[65]

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #37 - January 19, 2009, 11:13 AM

    Just invent a hadith that says anything you like. Seems like everyone else did. Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #38 - January 19, 2009, 05:33 PM

    Quote

    Just quote me the hadith, which talks about 72 virgins. I don't find anything of the sort in those links. Can you do that? 

    BMZ



    BMZ

    I also can not find any Hadith that refers to 72 virgins. I believe it came from the Al Qaeda training manual.

    "2. Sincere desire to attain martyrdom - Al-Salem, basing his arguments on Sheik Abdallah Azzam (the spiritual leader of Osama Bin Laden, killed in Afghanistan in 1989), emphasizes the importance of the sincere endeavor in
    order to attain martyrdom from Allah. The believer can perform the commandment concerning the "preparation to the battle" (I'dad Al-'oda) and gain a reward from Allah equivalent to the Saheed's reward (72 virgins and secure a close place near the Divine presence in Heaven) even though he may die from natural causes"

    http://knol.google.com/k/joel-leyden/al-qaeda-the-39-principles-of-holy-war/1724m1cc1re8x/11#

    The thirst to embellish on religious doctrine seems unquenchable.

    If this were actually true it would raise 2 questions for me.
    Do female suicide bombers get gang-banged by 72 clumbsy virgin males?

    Do women who die virgins end up getting enlisted into these martyr harems? Sounds like a good reason for young girls to hurry up and get laid before it's too late.

    So far, it looks like only Al Qaeda need answer those questions, not Islam.

    ByesB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #39 - January 19, 2009, 06:37 PM

    Quote

    Just quote me the hadith, which talks about 72 virgins. I don't find anything of the sort in those links. Can you do that? 

    BMZ



    BMZ

    I also can not find any Hadith that refers to 72 virgins. I believe it came from the Al Qaeda training manual.

    "2. Sincere desire to attain martyrdom - Al-Salem, basing his arguments on Sheik Abdallah Azzam (the spiritual leader of Osama Bin Laden, killed in Afghanistan in 1989), emphasizes the importance of the sincere endeavor in
    order to attain martyrdom from Allah. The believer can perform the commandment concerning the "preparation to the battle" (I'dad Al-'oda) and gain a reward from Allah equivalent to the Saheed's reward (72 virgins and secure a close place near the Divine presence in Heaven) even though he may die from natural causes"

    http://knol.google.com/k/joel-leyden/al-qaeda-the-39-principles-of-holy-war/1724m1cc1re8x/11#

    The thirst to embellish on religious doctrine seems unquenchable.

    If this were actually true it would raise 2 questions for me.
    Do female suicide bombers get gang-banged by 72 clumbsy virgin males?

    Do women who die virgins end up getting enlisted into these martyr harems? Sounds like a good reason for young girls to hurry up and get laid before it's too late.

    So far, it looks like only Al Qaeda need answer those questions, not Islam.

    ByesB


    There is a hadith about the 72 virgins, a google search should find it.

    As for your questions-
    1) Berbs asked an imam this question and she received this reply- Women are reunited with their first husbands (whether they like it or not) and they'll enjoy watching their husband cheat on them for the rest of eternity as God will cloud all our minds in heaven so we cannot feel pain/jealousy. It'll be Stepford Wives for real Wink

    2) That's an interesting question. I'll have to look this up.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #40 - January 19, 2009, 08:55 PM

    The argument for the white grapes is a little misunderstood. The white grapes in the koran do actually point to women. The whole contention caused by the theory is that, the writers of the koran, thought that houris mean girls, and they wrote the book as such. When in fact, houris means grape.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #41 - January 19, 2009, 09:32 PM

       72 virgins = 36 Anne Widdecombes + 36 Cliff Richards  . For all eternity.

        that'll teach the bastards
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #42 - January 19, 2009, 09:49 PM

    As for your questions-
    1) Berbs asked an imam this question and she received this reply- Women are reunited with their first husbands (whether they like it or not) and they'll enjoy watching their husband cheat on them for the rest of eternity as God will cloud all our minds in heaven so we cannot feel pain/jealousy. It'll be Stepford Wives for real Wink

    Nice analogy.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #43 - January 20, 2009, 04:47 AM

    As for your questions-
    1) Berbs asked an imam this question and she received this reply- Women are reunited with their first husbands (whether they like it or not) and they'll enjoy watching their husband cheat on them for the rest of eternity as God will cloud all our minds in heaven so we cannot feel pain/jealousy. It'll be Stepford Wives for real Wink

    Nice analogy.  Afro

    I made it first. Tongue

    I asked the imam, I said "what if I don't want to be with my first husband in heaven" and he told me that when I get to heaven the things that I want wouldn't matter anymore because I wouldn't want them.  I would feel no anger, resentment, jealousy, I would just feel bliss.  So basically I would be a bit part actor in a cheap harem porn, just saying my lines, with no conscious thought at all.


    You will be made to be happy. Prepare to be Stepford'ed!

    Also, I've heard different. The woman will be with the last man she was married to.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #44 - January 20, 2009, 07:27 AM

    Even when kids are 'taught' the Quran, it's mostly memorization and rarely comprehension. Quran class usually means memorization class. That's why I find it so tedious. What's so good about being a 'hafid' and knowing the whole Quran by heart?

    This is what I couldn't stand as a muslim. What's the benefit in memorizing and reciting something you don't understand? Beyond the few Surahs I needed for Salat, I refused to memorize until I understood. I can understand about half of it now.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #45 - January 20, 2009, 07:32 AM

    Even when kids are 'taught' the Quran, it's mostly memorization and rarely comprehension. Quran class usually means memorization class. That's why I find it so tedious. What's so good about being a 'hafid' and knowing the whole Quran by heart?

    This is what I couldn't stand as a muslim. What's the benefit in memorizing and reciting something you don't understand? Beyond the few Surahs I needed for Salat, I refused to memorize until I understood. I can understand about half of it now.

    And that's why I won't go!

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #46 - January 20, 2009, 07:33 AM

    If all it is is memorizing sounds without meaning, there's no point to going.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #47 - January 20, 2009, 08:14 AM

    Hello,

    I've always been a bit unclear of what awaits Muslims (particularly men) in paradise. From what I know, the Quran and the hadiths states that there will be 72 virgins that awaits each Muslim men that die as a Martyr.

    Recently the word that has been used to refer to the virgins has been argued by a scholar as being "white grapes," and has been "misinterpreted." How on Earth the word of an Omnipotent god can be mistranslated escapes me. Not to mention the "white grape" translation makes no sense to me either....

    Can one of you clear up for me as to what it is really referring to?

    Thank you.





    Do'nt be unclear about anything

    Live your life.

    I've spent the last 12 months listening all these peoples who believe what England

    should be, or not be be.

    They speak a lot, but,

    most of these cyberspace people have never driven an "E-Type.

    Sounds crazy, Neh?

    Four on the floor is a bit different.




    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #48 - January 20, 2009, 09:34 AM

    As for your questions-
    1) Berbs asked an imam this question and she received this reply- Women are reunited with their first husbands (whether they like it or not) and they'll enjoy watching their husband cheat on them for the rest of eternity as God will cloud all our minds in heaven so we cannot feel pain/jealousy. It'll be Stepford Wives for real Wink

    Nice analogy.  Afro

    I stole it from Awais Tongue
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #49 - January 20, 2009, 12:36 PM

    Yes he mentioned that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #50 - January 20, 2009, 12:59 PM

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90d_1232376450

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #51 - January 22, 2009, 12:01 AM

    Stop demonizing your opponents.

    I remember Satan saying the same thing to god once!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #52 - January 22, 2009, 09:04 AM

    EDIT: My main issue with Taqqiya, is that in islam, it is permitted and encouraged by scripture. When in most other religions they have to do it only as a last resort out of necessity and embarrassment

    Huh? I remember learning the complete opposite. You should never, ever deny your faith, no matter what. Remember Sumayyah bint Khayyat?

    Same here. You're only allowed to conceal your beliefs when under threat of death, like the Inquisition. Tongue

    * Mohammed gave permission for a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet who had offended Mohammed.
    * The koran gives permission to lie and state that it will only judge people by what is in their heart.
    * Aisha said that muhammad only allowed lying in 3 conditions, to protect yourself and your religion. To keep peace in the house. To mediate between Two parties.

    Now for the life of me, I can not think of any other reason I would need to lie, unless I am a compulsive lier who needs to satisfy his urges perhaps.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #53 - January 23, 2009, 01:44 AM

    I think this falls into the category that Hassan described once: true muslims genuinely not knowing a lot about their own religion, and only really passing the good stuff on. I learnt that thing about never denying your faith as well, even though the examples you mention, Baal, exist. I only learnt about things like that when I looked into Islam more deeply after starting to reject it.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #54 - January 23, 2009, 05:24 AM

    * Mohammed gave permission for a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet who had offended Mohammed.

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, kitab al-jihad, #2826
    Narrated Abu Hurayra: The Messenger of Allah said, "War is deception"

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, kitab al-maghaazi,  #3768
    Muhammad said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "Ya Rasool Allah! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab)." The Prophet said, "You may say it."

    He did not deny his belief in Muhammad or pretend to be other than Muslim, I don't see how your example counts in this case?

    Quote
    * The koran gives permission to lie and state that it will only judge people by what is in their heart.

    Cite it.

    Quote
    * Aisha said that muhammad only allowed lying in 3 conditions, to protect yourself and your religion. To keep peace in the house. To mediate between Two parties.

    Again, I don't see where 'taqiyyah' comes into this during times of ease? If no one is trying to kill and convert you from Islam, there's no need to deceive. I think you would agree with the other two forms of 'deception'.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #55 - January 23, 2009, 06:45 AM

    For the record: Awais, you lost your privileges a while back about asking me to look things for you.

    * Mohammed gave permission for a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet who had offended Mohammed.

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, kitab al-jihad, #2826
    Narrated Abu Hurayra: The Messenger of Allah said, "War is deception"

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, kitab al-maghaazi,  #3768
    Muhammad said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "Ya Rasool Allah! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab)." The Prophet said, "You may say it."

    He did not deny his belief in Muhammad or pretend to be other than Muslim, I don't see how your example counts in this case?

    Maslama had to continue to pretend that he was a friend and family of Kaab. He had to cover the fact that he joined islam else Kaab would have been cautious.


    Quote
    * The koran gives permission to lie and state that it will only judge people by what is in their heart.

    Cite it.

    Find it. It exists in many locations in the koran.

    Quote
    * Aisha said that muhammad only allowed lying in 3 conditions, to protect yourself and your religion. To keep peace in the house. To mediate between Two parties.

    Again, I don't see where 'taqiyyah' comes into this during times of ease?

    This command does not apply during times of ease. It applies when you are not at ease. When your wife is questioning you. When your boss is questioning you. etc.

    This reminds me of the verse that said: "You are not allowed to inherit a widow except if she was witnessed committing fashisha". Literally, the verse permitted inheritance of widows right under the nose of the reader.

    And for the record, most Arab muslims in the middle east, can live their entire lives and barely hear the word taqqiya uttered few times in their life. Perhaps lately they might be hearing about the doctrine of 'wala and bara', but still, muslims do not go around explicitly teaching their kids to lie. The teachings about lying are often implicit.

    Goes like this:
    Let's follow the koran and the example of the Prophet --> But the prophet lied and the koran permitted lying.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #56 - January 23, 2009, 06:59 AM

    For the record: Awais, you lost your privileges a while back about asking me to look things for you.
    ...
    Find it. It exists in many locations in the koran.

    The burden of proof is upon you. I do not recall of any verses permitting lying, prove it, I don't give a shit about your contention with me. If you cannot prove it, you have no point.

    Quote from: Baal
    Maslama had to continue to pretend that he was a friend and family of Kaab. He had to cover the fact that he joined islam else Kaab would have been cautious.

    Yeah?

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, kitab al-maghaazi,  #3768
    "That man (i.e. Muhammad) demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be..."

    Quote from: Baal
    ...This command does not apply during times of ease. It applies when you are not at ease. When your wife is questioning you. When your boss is questioning you. etc.

    No muslim will agree with your interpretation.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #57 - February 22, 2009, 09:25 PM

    For the record: Awais, you lost your privileges a while back about asking me to look things for you.
    ...
    Find it. It exists in many locations in the koran.

    The burden of proof is upon you. I do not recall of any verses permitting lying, prove it, I don't give a shit about your contention with me. If you cannot prove it, you have no point.

    Tha't fine Awais, most people on the thread know enough about how the koran will only judge people by what is in their hearts.

    Quote from: Baal
    Maslama had to continue to pretend that he was a friend and family of Kaab. He had to cover the fact that he joined islam else Kaab would have been cautious.

    Yeah?

    Yeah.

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, kitab al-maghaazi,  #3768
    "That man (i.e. Muhammad) demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be..."

    Quote from: Baal
    ...This command does not apply during times of ease. It applies when you are not at ease. When your wife is questioning you. When your boss is questioning you. etc.

    No muslim will agree with your interpretation.

    What you are saying is that most muslims think that lying is permissible at times of ease as well. Good job.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #58 - February 22, 2009, 11:19 PM

    .. talking about getting others to look things up for you, does anyone know where I can find the quote Quran or hadith, where it says you should not invite a Jew to your home for tea?  I read it somewhere (twice), but cannot find it now. 

    I once used it in a debate, and I was told it I was wrong as it did not exist anywhere.

    I am sure I read it somewhere but was subsequently left eating humble pie as I could not find it anywhere since, despite promising I would find out for them. 

    As a last bastion, I even googled the phrase & could not find it?  I hate it when that happens

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #59 - February 23, 2009, 07:23 AM

    From you is the first I've heard this hadith.

    "awais narrated on the authority of IsLame upon the authority of someone he forgot..." Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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