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Theme Changer

 Topic: The before and after thread.

 (Read 41359 times)
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #120 - March 10, 2010, 05:48 PM

    I agree. For some reason, when I left Christianity I was able to retain my belief in god, which led me to Islam. But leaving Islam was completely different. There was just no way I could justify believing in god after that.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #121 - March 10, 2010, 06:33 PM

    The great thing about Islam is that it points out all the flaws in Christianity by underlining them with a highlighter. 

    No wonder the Christians are pissed with Islam.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #122 - March 10, 2010, 06:36 PM


    Douglas Murray wrote that his study of Islam and all that was bad in it made him leave Christianity.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #123 - March 10, 2010, 06:40 PM



    Here is his essay. Very interesting in its own right. I wonder how many more instances of this there have been, of people of whatever faith studying Islam, being repulsed by it, and becoming atheist or agnostic and renouncing organised religion altogether as a result of it.


    +++++


    Studying Islam has made me an atheist


    Douglas Murray says that he stopped being an Anglican after analysing Muslim texts and deciding that no book — of any religion — could claim infallibility

    Just over a year ago I told a lie. In print. In this magazine. I was one of those asked by The Spectator last Christmas whether I believed in the virgin birth. Since it had always seemed to me that if you believed in God a ‘pick and mix’ approach to the central tenets of the faith was pointless, I said ‘yes’. But in fact I felt ‘no’. It wasn’t that I had been wrestling over the doctrine of the incarnation, I simply felt that if I didn’t believe in the virgin birth, I would not believe in God. The truth is I didn’t and don’t. The guilt has been lingering since. This is my atheist mea culpa.

    Many people hold on to belief as an unquestioned part of their make-up. They never have to confront the source of their belief, and as long as nothing actively pushes them into addressing it, they keep it as something which rarely does much harm and might actually do some good. I have been an Anglican since birth — and not just a cultural Anglican but at times (rarest of things) a real, worshipping, believing Anglican. Like a lot of believers, I knew that there were parts of my belief that wouldn’t stand up to analysis. But that was fine. I didn’t need to analyse them. I only lost faith when I was forced to.

    Charles Darwin didn’t do for God. German biblical criticism did — the scholarship on lost texts, discoveries of added-to texts and edited texts. All pointed away from the initial starting-block of faith — that the texts transmitted immutable truths. Realising that ‘holy’ texts are, like most other things in life, the result of an accretion of human effort and human error is one of the most troubling discoveries any believer can make. I remember trying to read some of this scholarship when I was younger, and finding it so terrifying, so ground-shaking, that I put it off for another day.

    But it found me via another route. Some years ago I started studying Islam. It didn’t take long to recognise the problems of that religion’s texts — the repetitions, contradictions and absurdities. Unlike Christianity, scholarship on these problems in Islam has barely begun. But they are manifest for anyone to see. For a holy book which in its opening lines boasts ‘that is the book, wherein is no doubt’, plenty of doubt emerges. Not least in recognising demonstrable plagiarisms from the Torah and the Christian Bible. If God spoke through an archangel to one illiterate tradesman in 7th-century Arabia, then — just for starters — why was he stealing material? Or was he just repeating himself?

    Gradually, scepticism of the claims made by one religion was joined by scepticism of all such claims. Incredulity that anybody thought an archangel dictated a book to Mohammed produced a strange contradiction. I found myself still clinging to belief in Christianity. I was trying to believe — though rarely arguing — ‘Well, your guy didn’t hear voices: but I know a man who did.’ This last, shortest and sharpest, phase pulled down the whole thing. In the end Mohammed made me an atheist.

    Though it was a supplementary realisation, the problems that these texts have caused cannot be avoided either. Where else does your real bona-fide bigot find his metier? Anyone can repress a woman, but you need ‘dictated’ scriptures to feel you’re really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you’ve got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious ‘Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve’-style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different to you.

    Anyone can be a bigot. But divine bigots must count as the most intractable — the most infuriatingly impervious to reason. Besides — to a bibliophile, indeed bibliomaniac — the idea that there is any book ‘wherein is no doubt’ is insulting as well demonstrably untrue.

    Even when I stopped believing I pretended I did, or said I did for a bit, for fear of the break in the dike. Like many people, the first thing that troubled me about leaving religion was fear of meaninglessness. Where would ethics come from? If nothing was revealed then surely everything would be relative — and that way lay nihilism. As it happens, it becomes clearer the more I look at it that religious texts are not only unnecessary to the ethical life. More often than believers like to admit, they are directly contrary to it.

    Then there is the loss of the guiding hand. It is the one utterly irreplaceable aspect of belief. Without God, where is the enduring melody — the cantus firmus — of life? Alexander Herzen asked, ‘Where is the song before it is sung?’ It is impossible to replace the belief in a deity’s plans for you. Though less comforting, it is simply observably truer that there is no song before you sing it — no path before you tread it. You make the song as you sing it. You make the path as you tread it. It makes life more precarious, certainly — but just as the risk of falling is greater, so, likewise, is the possibility of soaring.

    My final fear was one which I think a lot of Christians in this country feel, particularly as they see Islam re-emerging and gaining adherents in spite (or perhaps because) of its intransigence and intractability. It is, I suppose, a sense of cultural abandonment. We know how much of what we enjoy and relish comes through Christianity. Can we really go on without it? Doesn’t it leave our building without foundations? Slowly I discover that it doesn’t. I still can’t pass a country church or cathedral without going in. The texts are still essential to me. They are just (and ‘just’ hardly does the job here) no more divine than Shakespeare.

    The question of how, without believing it, we transmit the good of our historical faith to another generation is certainly problematic. Perhaps like many Jewish people who rejoice in their identity but don’t believe in God we could be better — and franker — at being cultural Christians. I tried it this year, at my first atheist Christmas.

    I went to church on Christmas morning, and went with my family to the carol service a few nights before. The readings were comforting not only because of their familiarity but because taken as great stories they still transmit, like all great literature, truths which you can live by. The momentousness and simplicity of Adam’s fall was as tragic and resonant to this atheist heart as it once was to the believing one.

    Fundamentalist Islam challenges us politically. But tackling literalism of one kind with literalism of another doesn’t work. Complexity is harder to accept, but more evident to the eye. After long struggle, I find reason enough.

    My first non-believing Christmas was different, certainly. Different — but, contrary to my fears, no shallower. Quite the opposite. Things this year seemed both more open and more possible. More fragile and more precious. It also struck me, in ways which are hard to explain — and the religious language cannot be avoided — that it was all, if anything, even more miraculous.


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/3194231/studying-islam-has-made-me-an-atheist.thtml




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #124 - March 10, 2010, 06:43 PM

    Whatever Islam does, it wins.  Even when it sheer ridiculousness makes Christians apostacise, the net effect is that Islam gets that bit closer to taking the Christian crown of the worlds largest religion  015

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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #125 - March 10, 2010, 07:05 PM

    Quote
    Whatever Islam does, it wins.  

     

    In the modern world, Islam is the loser. I don't mean that in a snide, pejorative sense, but as an observation that everyone else in the world is getting their shit together, whilst Islam runs crying and screaming back into the comforts of its own delusions. Islam regressing into the duncehood of the numbers game is a sign of this, but even then Christianity and other faiths and secular democracy an expanding belief systems, and ultimately Islam will always lose the numbers game, because the overwhelming majority of the world are kuffars and always will be, and increasingly there is a singular, collective view of Islam across every other border, religion, culture, nation. Islam has made the kuffars look at it with the same pair of eyes. Well done, Islam.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #126 - March 10, 2010, 07:09 PM

    Not really a crown worth taking in the sense now everyone who's not muslim will be looking to gun it down at every opportunity but it will still gain a lot of political influence which is one of the fears I have about the fast growth (mainly due to birth rate) of Islam. I guess this is why it garners so much hatred and criticism, because of its inherent political nature.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #127 - March 10, 2010, 08:32 PM

    Whatever Islam does, it wins.  Even when it sheer ridiculousness makes Christians apostacise, the net effect is that Islam gets that bit closer to taking the Christian crown of the worlds largest religion  015


    I disagree. Perhaps you could say Islam would have won had he converted to Islam, but someone with the capacity to come to reason would have eventually left Islam anyway, leaving things as they stand now (1 fewer Christian, and no addition to Islam). The fact that Islam seems to be the only religion leading people to atheism speaks volumes, and is doing well to shift the balance between the number of religious vs. non-religious people. Who cares if Islam ends up as the largest religion, if they are a minority to the non-religious? I quickly got tired of reading anti-Islamic literature from a pro-Christian POV. Although still interesting, hearing Islam compared solely to Christianity was a bit insulting, as though Muslims and Christians are the only people of any import in the world. I'd much rather see atheist numbers grow than see Christianity keep its lead over Islam.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #128 - March 10, 2010, 10:10 PM

    I disagree. Perhaps you could say Islam would have won had he converted to Islam, but someone with the capacity to come to reason would have eventually left Islam anyway, leaving things as they stand now (1 fewer Christian, and no addition to Islam). The fact that Islam seems to be the only religion leading people to atheism speaks volumes, and is doing well to shift the balance between the number of religious vs. non-religious people. Who cares if Islam ends up as the largest religion, if they are a minority to the non-religious? I quickly got tired of reading anti-Islamic literature from a pro-Christian POV. Although still interesting, hearing Islam compared solely to Christianity was a bit insulting, as though Muslims and Christians are the only people of any import in the world. I'd much rather see atheist numbers grow than see Christianity keep its lead over Islam.


    Don't think it's the only religion leading people to atheism but I think most people who do leave Islam eventually become atheist due to how much stupid and immoral shit they adopted or believed in as Muslims and how Islam is so blatantly false as all other religions. For me, personally, I want a world which is completely secular and people who adopt religion merely as a culture rather than a set of rules which should govern their and others' lives.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #129 - March 10, 2010, 10:44 PM

    True, it's probably not the *only* religion leading people to atheism, but it's by far the one you hear about most often. Or maybe I just don't pay much attention to other religions' apostates Roll Eyes

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #130 - March 10, 2010, 10:47 PM

    Islam has so little room for flexibility you often seldom see "lapsed" muslims the way there are among Christians and Catholics. When a Muslim leaves the religion he/she really has to leave the religion. Not just mentally, but physically and culturally. I think thats the case with all apostates from Islam, they're later positions tend to be very strong Christian, Atheist or whatever. Islam just doesn't allow for some in-between transitional areas.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #131 - March 10, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Well for me as far as cultural goes I only would celebrate Eid with my family and I also admire Islamic calligraphy and art. I guess such family-oriented occasions are enjoyable for me much like xmas. All the other shit though can go out the window now.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #132 - March 10, 2010, 11:01 PM

    Well for me as far as cultural goes I only would celebrate Eid with my family and I also admire Islamic calligraphy and art.


    Actually, when it comes to the civilizational aspects of historical muslim societies, I'm still a big fan of muslim civilization. I think the medeival art, architecture, sciences, philosophy and even military organization of the Muslim world is one the most fascinating and epic eras of human history. I still favor Islamic styles of art and architecture over anything else. I've collected a few miniature, vases and ancient coins from the era already. Love that stuff.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #133 - March 10, 2010, 11:13 PM

    Islam has so little room for flexibility you often seldom see "lapsed" muslims the way there are among Christians and Catholics. When a Muslim leaves the religion he/she really has to leave the religion.


    That's true. There are plenty of non-practicing Muslims, but when a Muslim actually decides to leave Islam they are forced to pick something else. While Christians can get by with just being... blah.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #134 - March 11, 2010, 01:13 AM

    Practising Muslim> Doubter> Atheist (but not hardcore. However, even if God does exist I don't care much for his existance).


    Christian -> Muslim -> Atheist.


    Wait a minute, you guys are bro and sis, right? So how is it James started off as Christian and Fererro as Muslim? I mean, I can think of several possible explanations for it, but it is interesting, so please let me know how interesting.

    For me: Atheist--> Agnostic--> Christian--> Militant atheist/antitheist--> Agnostic atheist/notgivingafuckist. Mom's side of the family was not very religious to agnostic Catholics and Presbyterians. Dad wasn't around growing up but he's Muslim.

    fuck you
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #135 - March 11, 2010, 04:12 PM

    they are boyfriend & girlfriend

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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #136 - March 11, 2010, 04:15 PM

    For me: Atheist--> Agnostic--> Christian--> Militant atheist/antitheist--> Agnostic atheist/notgivingafuckist. Mom's side of the family was not very religious to agnostic Catholics and Presbyterians. Dad wasn't around growing up but he's Muslim.

    How does somebody go from being an atheist to being a Christian?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #137 - March 11, 2010, 04:26 PM

    Wait a minute, you guys are bro and sis, right?




    Cheesy add in the incest thread to the mix and what must Q have been thinking.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #138 - March 11, 2010, 09:03 PM

    How does somebody go from being an atheist to being a Christian?


    Same shit as an atheist e.g. Jeffrey Lang becomes a Muslim. It strikes an emotional chord with them. Logic would not lead you to religion but emotion will.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #139 - March 11, 2010, 09:05 PM

    ^^^^Bingo!  Afro

    fuck you
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #140 - March 11, 2010, 09:38 PM

    ^^^^Bingo!  Afro

    I still dont get it, after you have rationlised religion away, then how do emotional chords set in & take root?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #141 - March 11, 2010, 09:49 PM

    Well usually they see something they like or attracts them in a particular religion which they didn't find or experience in their former one, probably. Your assuming though they rationalise religion away in every aspect. Some may find a concept or verse which resonates with them personally that makes the religion more likeable to them.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #142 - March 11, 2010, 10:20 PM

    I still dont get it, after you have rationlised religion away, then how do emotional chords set in & take root?


    Fine, I'll give ya a blow-by-blow, then:

    1. Grandpa wasn't very religious (and I suspect was likely an atheist, though he never copped to it), but was raised Presbyterian. Since he married a Catholic, he had to raise all the kids Catholic, including my ma (who also isn't very religious and considers herself an agnostic Catholic). Well, some time after I was born, and my Muslim dad was outta the picture for good due to a long prison sentence, he saw an opportunity to take me to the Presbyterian church like his dad did with him. I think he thought that (a) he was passing along his cultural heritage to me , and (b) going to church would be good for my socialization, moral development, and discipline.

    2. So I started going to Sunday School and church even though I really didn't want to, because my grandpa dragged me there and I respected, loved, and feared him.

    3. In addition, I would meet with the pastor privately, because my grandpa really liked and respected the guy and felt like he could talk to me about religion on my level, and he was right. The pastor was a very smart man and a very kind man, and he explained how you can't really take everything in the Bible literally, and that the creation story doesn't mean there wasn't a big bang or evolution or anything like that. Compared to many of the preachers in the area, he was very liberal. So I wasn't yet convinced, but I kept my mind open, and the pastor had my attention and respect.

    4. He suggested I go with a youth church group to a non-denominational Christian youth convention on an island off the Georgia coast. I agreed to go because the kids in my church group were pretty cool for the most part, some of the girls were cute, and hey, it was a free trip to the beach. Most of the attendees were from significantly more conservative churches than the one I was coming from, and the whole thing had the tone of a conservative Christian revivalist kinda thing. All the same I did meet some cool kids there. I remember some of them learned my first name (which I don't go by) was Mohammed, and, miracle of miracles they actually thought it was a cool name, and thought maybe I should go by "Mo" or "Hammer".

    5. Anyhow, I was at this one thing in a big auditorium with several hundred people or more. We were singing, swaying, a girl next to me had her hands in the air and started crying, and at that moment I thought I had an epiphany and started believing in Jesus. It was only later that I realized the whole event was staged to create an atmosphere of group psychological/emotional manipulation that would manufacture religious ecstasy-- kinda like a toned-down version of when you see the Pentecostals writhing on the floor, speaking in tongues. I was maybe 13 or 14 at this point.

    6. The pastor left that church and the church elders began to become more conservative, not as bad as some of the other churches, but still. So eventually I stopped going, and my grandpa was cool with it, so I slowly drifted away, but for a few years more, even after I realized what had happened, I still felt like I had to believe, because I had made a commitment with my heart, so it didn't matter if my mind knew it was untrue. So I wasn't going to church, nor was I particularly religious, but I still believed, and still would say the Lord's Prayer and a few Hail Marys (I picked it up from all the Catholic relatives, my grandma gave me a rosary she picked up Yugoslavia and everything) before bed. By 19 I was agnostic, and by 22 I was a militant atheist/antitheist and anarcho-syndicalist who thought the Spanish Revolutionaries who burned churches to the ground and executed priests were way cool. And now I'm just an agnostic atheist, left-leaning libertarian cynic.

    THE END

    fuck you
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #143 - March 11, 2010, 10:34 PM

    Thanks Q - I dont believe I read this story before.  Would you say this epiphany was a defining moment in this theist chapter of your life?  What actually happened?  I wonder if a lot of it was a sense of belonging and higher purpose.  Which is something atheists cant offer.  Dawkins may have been on the right track with his atheist camps last summer

    Quote
    The five-day retreat near Bath is already fully booked. On top of cooking, hiking and canoeing, activities for campers include a competition to disprove the existence of the mythical unicorn – with the winner receiving a £10 note autographed by Dawkins, the author of The God Delusion, and donated by the camp's director, Samantha Stein.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/28/atheism-camp-uk-richard-dawkins


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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #144 - March 11, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Thanks Q - I dont believe I read this story before. 


    That's cause in comparison with other stories of folks here getting/leaving religion, mine didn't seem all that interesting. But you were interested and wanted a more detailed explanation, so I gave it.

    Quote
    Would you say this epiphany was a defining moment in this theist chapter of your life?

     

    Yep.

    Quote
    What actually happened?


    I can't describe it any better than I just did. It was just an irrational moment, completely emotional, where I felt God's presence and became a believer.

    fuck you
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #145 - November 23, 2010, 03:41 AM

    Hinduism > Atheism > Roman Catholicism > Atheism / learning more about Islam and Hinduism
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #146 - November 23, 2010, 03:44 AM

    Just give up. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #147 - November 23, 2010, 03:49 AM

    Atheist -> Muslim -> Deist -> (Agnostic) Atheist / Pantheist
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #148 - November 23, 2010, 04:04 AM

    Let me just tell you Catholicism rocks. The songs are damn nice.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #149 - November 23, 2010, 06:00 AM

    Atheist -> Muslim -> Deist -> (Agnostic) Atheist / Pantheist


    Try Wicca. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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