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 Topic: Morality and the Meaning of Life

 (Read 6363 times)
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  • Morality and the Meaning of Life
     OP - January 25, 2009, 08:10 PM

    This is an excellent video.  Afro

    I especially loved his concluding words on the meaning and purpose to life.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ-NE0XiX1s&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #1 - January 25, 2009, 08:40 PM

    Me to, I think it was a very good way to conclude a video of this sort. 

    Otherwise most videos of this nature sum up & end on a negative note for religious people, whereas this one doesnt. 

    It leaves with positive feelings towards the maker of the video, and the most invaluable commodity of all, hope. yay

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #2 - January 25, 2009, 09:01 PM

    Well, he's high on a certain kind of morality but his whole mien is too anthropocentric for my liking.
    He has no proper understanding of what evolution is, or what 'fitness' means in relation to it.
    And I don't see why he needs a god to 'serve' in order to be nice to his fellow humans (and , he could have added, several million other species).
    But, 10/10 for being a nice guy.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #3 - January 25, 2009, 09:47 PM

    I only watched the last minute - didnt realise he was a part of Gods squad

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #4 - January 25, 2009, 09:53 PM

    I only watched the last minute - didnt realise he was a part of Gods squad


    No he's not part of the God squad and he's made loads of great videos criticizing religion (The Bible and Qur'an).

    I think he is a Deist/Agnostic/Freethinker.

    Which is pretty much my position too.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #5 - January 25, 2009, 10:17 PM

    Well, he's high on a certain kind of morality but his whole mien is too anthropocentric for my liking.
    He has no proper understanding of what evolution is, or what 'fitness' means in relation to it.
    And I don't see why he needs a god to 'serve' in order to be nice to his fellow humans (and , he could have added, several million other species).
    But, 10/10 for being a nice guy.


    I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick here. I'm sure he does understand how evolution works, but this video seems to be aimed at religious people and is framed in a way to help explain his ideas. Hence he doesn't explain "fitness" in full detail but talks of how "co-operation" etc can be a "strength" .

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #6 - January 26, 2009, 03:28 PM

    A classic non answer that, until the end, would have been worthy of any atheist.

    We have:
    1.  Non-sequitor.  'They ask 'what do you base your purpose or morality on?  This means that they assume that the choice is between God and nihilism.'  Does it?  Maybe they're just asking you for evidence in just the way that you ask them.

    2.  More non-sequitor and unrepresentative sample.  There are fewer murders in Scandinavian countries than in the US so the choice isn't between God and nihilism!  Really?  There might be a host of reasons other than religion for this difference.  And the behaviour of Scandinavians says nothing about whether nihilism is true or not.

    3.  More non-sequitor and equivocation.  'Clearly religion is not a good source of morality.'  Which 'religion'?  Are those religious people really tell you just to 'be religious'?

    4.  Begging the question.  'Morality is natural'.  How do you know?  How do you know that what your conscience 'tells' you is actually right or wrong?  Where is the evidence?  Morality is already assumed to exist but this is what the initial question was.

    5.  Naturalistic fallacy.  'We are empathetic beings, community animals therefore we should....'.  If this is true, then 'morality' is redundant.  We just 'will' behave as 'empathetic beings and community animals' and there no right or wrong to talk about at all.  And of course, empathy isn't only about suffering.  We get plenty of ideas about causing suffering to others by imagining what it would be like to do so.

    6.  More begging the question. 'I would not want to be robbed and so I wouldn't do that to someone else'.  Rubbish.  Plenty of people rob others even though they wouldn't like it done to them.

    7.  No 'outs'.  Of course you do!  You have the ultimate out.  It really, truly, doesn't matter!

    8.  More begging the question.  'working together is strength'.  Let's pick what we happen to like out of human behaviour and call that 'strength'.  Because we don't know the results, we have no idea, from an evolutionary standpoint, what is 'strength' and what isn't.

    9.  'So in the absence of any evidence about the subject, I'm just going to make up my own fluffy three rules to live by.'  So, in the end, his morality is based on something that he made up in my head - which makes it different to the religious moralities that he has been criticising, how?

    10.  'My purpose is to leave the world better off.  If yours is to leave it worse off, please leave me a text note.  Of course, I have no evidence to show as to what 'better' or 'worse' really mean or 'positive' or 'negative' or any other value judgement that I have loaded up in this video.  But I hope you believe this fluff enough to spend some time painting your own part of the big nothing so that it can be completely ignored after you die.'

    In short, not one single argument to say that nihilism actually isn't true.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #7 - January 26, 2009, 04:02 PM

    Good video. He makes some good points for those not willing to falsely non-sequitur everything.

    Sparky maybe his idea of leaving the world a beter place is not in keeping with Jesus' intention of coming back for an armageddon, destroying the lot and taking up his followers.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #8 - January 26, 2009, 04:15 PM

    Good video. He makes some good points for those not willing to falsely non-sequitur everything.

    Sparky maybe his idea of leaving the world a beter place is not in keeping with Jesus' intention of coming back for an armageddon, destroying the lot and taking up his followers.

    Hey I'd settle for a single piece of evidence for whatever you believe 'better' to be.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #9 - January 26, 2009, 05:06 PM

    Good video. He makes some good points for those not willing to falsely non-sequitur everything.

    Sparky maybe his idea of leaving the world a beter place is not in keeping with Jesus' intention of coming back for an armageddon, destroying the lot and taking up his followers.

    Hey I'd settle for a single piece of evidence for whatever you believe 'better' to be.


    Sparky would you say the world is better today than 2,000 years ago?

    Has persons who have discovered the earth to be spherical, invented various modes of transport, made medical breakthroughs, provided computer technology, improved farming and irrigation to feed billions, dreamt up methods of entertainment to bring happiness, eradicated barbaric punishments, ended slavery or created technologies to keep you warm or cool not made the world a better place?

    People have contributed to making the world so much better than it was and most people can in their own little way. There is no need for god to make this world better.

    If a non-believer does good, it's simply out of his longing of doing so, not because he thinks some god up in the sky is watching him and he must do it to gain some brownie points to get into heaven.

    When a non-believer does good it's simply her own selfless desire to improve the lives of others or the state of the planet for future generations.

    'Better' is an improvement on what now pertains. I'd like to leave a happier, more improved world.

    Some of the religious however may seek to bring about the rapture by creating mayhem in the world, for its when there are wars and rumours of war that Jesus will come back to take you to heaven. The world is coming to an end anyway. Jesus said to expect it soon, in the generation of those he was talking to. So why bother with this temporary world, when the great hereafter is upon us soon?

    Betterment of the world was only possible when theocracy was suppressed and free-thought, science and rationality was allowed to flourish.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #10 - January 26, 2009, 06:14 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Quote from: sparky
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Good video. He makes some good points for those not willing to falsely non-sequitur everything.

    Sparky maybe his idea of leaving the world a beter place is not in keeping with Jesus' intention of coming back for an armageddon, destroying the lot and taking up his followers.


    Hey I'd settle for a single piece of evidence for whatever you believe 'better' to be

    .


    Sparky would you say the world is better today than 2,000 years ago?

    Has persons who have discovered the earth to be spherical, invented various modes of transport, made medical breakthroughs, provided computer technology, improved farming and irrigation to feed billions, dreamt up methods of entertainment to bring happiness, eradicated barbaric punishments, ended slavery or created technologies to keep you warm or cool not made the world a better place?

    People have contributed to making the world so much better than it was and most people can in their own little way. There is no need for god to make this world better.

    If a non-believer does good, it's simply out of his longing of doing so, not because he thinks some god up in the sky is watching him and he must do it to gain some brownie points to get into heaven.

    When a non-believer does good it's simply her own selfless desire to improve the lives of others or the state of the planet for future generations.

    'Better' is an improvement on what now pertains. I'd like to leave a happier, more improved world.

    So after waving your arms in the air alot, you come up with a rather vague definition and say that better is 'happier' - I assume you mean the people, right?.  But you still haven't provided any evidence why this is the case.  Why should 'better' be 'happier' rather than 'longer lasting' or 'happier for me and my family' etc, etc.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #11 - January 26, 2009, 08:25 PM

    So after waving your arms in the air alot, you come up with a rather vague definition and say that better is 'happier' - I assume you mean the people, right?.  But you still haven't provided any evidence why this is the case.  Why should 'better' be 'happier' rather than 'longer lasting' or 'happier for me and my family' etc, etc.


    You saw me waving arms? Maybe if you addressed the issues you woudn't appear to be so deluded.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #12 - January 26, 2009, 08:34 PM

    Oh yes he would. Wink

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #13 - January 26, 2009, 08:35 PM

    I only watched the last minute - didnt realise he was a part of Gods squad


    No he's not part of the God squad and he's made loads of great videos criticizing religion (The Bible and Qur'an).

    I think he is a Deist/Agnostic/Freethinker.

    Which is pretty much my position too.

    positions surely?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #14 - January 26, 2009, 08:38 PM

    Well, he's high on a certain kind of morality but his whole mien is too anthropocentric for my liking.
    He has no proper understanding of what evolution is, or what 'fitness' means in relation to it.
    And I don't see why he needs a god to 'serve' in order to be nice to his fellow humans (and , he could have added, several million other species).
    But, 10/10 for being a nice guy.


    I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick here. I'm sure he does understand how evolution works, but this video seems to be aimed at religious people and is framed in a way to help explain his ideas. Hence he doesn't explain "fitness" in full detail but talks of how "co-operation" etc can be a "strength" .

    I feel he fogged it with the way he did the follow-on. If it was deliberate, then it was intellectually dishonest.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #15 - January 26, 2009, 10:05 PM

    So after waving your arms in the air alot, you come up with a rather vague definition and say that better is 'happier' - I assume you mean the people, right?.  But you still haven't provided any evidence why this is the case.  Why should 'better' be 'happier' rather than 'longer lasting' or 'happier for me and my family' etc, etc.


    You saw me waving arms? Maybe if you addressed the issues you woudn't appear to be so deluded.

    You didn't raise any issues worth addressing.  How is asking whether I feel the world is 'better' of any relevance to your evidence for what you believe is better?  Yes, that is 'waving your arms' trying to deflect from the utter vacuousness of your response.

    So are you going to bring any evidence now?  Or just try to deflect attention again with more unsubstantiated claims about Christianity.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #16 - January 26, 2009, 10:59 PM

    I only watched the last minute - didnt realise he was a part of Gods squad


    No he's not part of the God squad and he's made loads of great videos criticizing religion (The Bible and Qur'an).

    I think he is a Deist/Agnostic/Freethinker.

    Which is pretty much my position too.

    positions surely?


    lol... ok, well I'm a:

    "Freethinking, Deist with occasional Agnostic tendencies and the odd Atheist moment"

    Tongue
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #17 - January 26, 2009, 11:07 PM

    lol... ok, well I'm a:
    "Freethinking, Deist with occasional Agnostic tendencies and the odd Atheist moment"
    Tongue


    You really should make a T-Shirt with that sentence  grin12

    Edit: Btw, the comma is a mistake Tongue

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #18 - January 26, 2009, 11:17 PM

    Btw, the comma is a mistake Tongue


    Damn! Busted!  Cheesy

    OK here it is again - and I think I just might have that on a T-Shirt.

    "Freethinking Deist with occasional Agnostic tendencies and the odd Atheist moment"

    I just thought of another T-Shirt message:

    The Cure for loving Islam...

    (then on the other side)

    ...is to look at it!

  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #19 - January 26, 2009, 11:19 PM

    lol... ok, well I'm a:
    "Freethinking, Deist with occasional Agnostic tendencies and the odd Atheist moment"
    Tongue


    You really should make a T-Shirt with that sentence  grin12


    2nded

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #20 - January 26, 2009, 11:20 PM

     Smiley

    Next time I see him I will get one printed for him, do you think I'll have to pay double to have it printed from the front and round to the back?

    I wonder how people will react to him with this on?

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #21 - January 26, 2009, 11:51 PM

    He'd be like the atheist bus.  Christians would write angry letters about him to the local press. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #22 - January 27, 2009, 12:09 AM

    Yes, we could sell his body by the square centimetre, as advertising space for our cause.  We could double our revenue if he was happy to parade around in a printed t-shirt & longjohns.

    False hadith.

    We could start an ebay style bidding war.  I am happy to start at 1p per cm2.


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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #23 - January 27, 2009, 01:01 AM

    I bid 2p.

    (We'll tell him its for charity).  Wink

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #24 - January 27, 2009, 08:21 AM

    Apologies Hass, I did not mean to treat your body like a piece of meat.

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #25 - January 27, 2009, 10:04 AM

    I just thought of another T-Shirt message:

    The Cure for loving Islam...

    (then on the other side)

    ...is to look at it!

    I'll pay you 1000 pounds to get that that tatooed on any visible area and parade it around a mosque Tongue
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #26 - January 27, 2009, 12:02 PM

    I only watched the last minute - didnt realise he was a part of Gods squad


    No he's not part of the God squad and he's made loads of great videos criticizing religion (The Bible and Qur'an).

    I think he is a Deist/Agnostic/Freethinker.

    Which is pretty much my position too.

    positions surely?


    lol... ok, well I'm a:

    "Freethinking, Deist with occasional Agnostic tendencies and the odd Atheist moment"

    Tongue

    How does that work; like a gearbox?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #27 - January 27, 2009, 12:05 PM

    automatic or manual?

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  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #28 - January 27, 2009, 12:13 PM

    Depends which continent you're on according to recent posts. The crunching and grinding that goes on in the old grey matter must be something terrible. Wouldn't work  in the USA because they can't figure out how to change gear in a manual box and only use automatics. So I guess it has to be manual and in Europe only.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Morality and the Meaning of Life
     Reply #29 - April 30, 2009, 05:49 PM

    I have an interesting thought on what the purpose of life could be, with a comment on the religious pupose of life.

    Now when a religious person says to you "To have a purpose in life makes a life worth living - without religion there is no purpose in life", he speaks the truth if he intends this above sentence to be two separate statements. However, if he means that the second statement follows on from the first, then he intends that the definition of the second use of the word purpose is the same as the definition of the first word, then he is being deceitful, and what is more, is that he doesn't even realize it.

    You've probably guessed by now then, that I believe that there are at least two definitions of the word purpose, and the religious person is using two different definitions of the word each time he uses it, and all along he thought he was using one definition. That is why his argument seemed so convincing to him, to other religious people, and to ourselves when we were religious.

    Let us begin with the first use of the word purpose. "To have a purpose in life makes a life worth living." The inverse of this is that if we do not have a purpose in life, then our life is not worth living anymore. This is an analytically true statement about how human emotion works. In this definition of the word, purpose is something that is felt. If we do not feel that we have a purpose in our life anymore, then we do not feel that our life is worth living anymore. Now in order for this to be an analytically true statement, it must surely mean then that this definition of purpose is the inverse of the second part of this statement. That is, to feel as though your life is worth living is to have a purpose in life and to have a purpose in life is to feel as though your life is worth living. So what things make you feel like life is worth living? Well the answer is mostly subjective. Some people find that having a family and raising children makes them feel like life is worth living. This is exactly the same as saying some people find having a family and raising children gives them purpose. One's purpose is then set by that person's own self. Something I want you to remember about this definition of purpose is that it is a POSITIVE definition of purpose. Purpose is a good thing, which makes us feel good. And this is exactly what the religious believer wants you to admit.

    Now, the second definition of the word purpose, as used by the religious believer in the second statement of the sentence he uses at the beginning of this post. The religious believer has already gotten you to agree that purpose is good. So if he is also right that only religion gives you such purpose, then the religious life is the happy purposeful one and the non-religious life is the dull purposeless one. He can even prove to you that only religion gives you such purpose. He says that with religion, God creates you for a purpose, just as you might invent something for a purpose. However, if you deny the existence of a God, or if you believe God created you for no known reason (deist) then nobody has set a purpose for you... you were created for no reason whatsoever. I want to argue that this is a different definition of purpose as to what was used in the first place. In this definition of purpose, you are simply created "for" something. But how is being created "for" something the same as having meaning in your life? Where is the connection? The answer is there is none at all, and in fact we are dealing with two words that look the same but are very different in meaning.

    Let me demonstrate with a thought experiment. One day, you are so fed up and bored out of your brains, that you decide you want to pray to God and beg him to tell you what your purpose is. Unusually, God responds and he tells you the honest reason why he created you. Your dying to hear what he has to say so that meaning may be restored to your life and you may live in happiness once again. You look up at God with gleaming eyes as he tells you, "I created you so that I could watch you play chess with yourself until the day you die, just for my own amusement." ....Do you jump up in joy at the prospect of doing the thing you were originally created for? Or do you look on in dissapointment and shout, "IS THAT IT?!?!"

    You might be thinking, what is going on here. The above thought experiment is suppose to show to you that being created "for" something can be quite dull indeed, and this is an indicator that this purpose is something different to the first definition of purpose, which by definition is supposed to be the opposite of dull. Being created "for" something, in effect makes you a "tool" and to call somebody a tool is meant to be an insult. So how do I explain the fact that many religious believers, despite simply doing what they believe they have been created for, actually get a lot of enjoyment and fulfilment from their religion. And indeed, if you really were desparate, you could play chess with yourself for the rest of your life, for the sake of God, and actually find that it really is bringing purpose into your life. But the religious believer wants to argue that the purpose that religion gives you is OBJECTIVE. That is, religion gives you a feeling of purpose (first definition) because it is religion. They use the fact that many religious believers feel their lives to be meaningful and fulfilled as being evidence for this. But in fact, it is just that these religious believers chose the religious life to have purpose (first definition) in their lives. In effect, what this means is that it isn't God which somehow installs a sense of meaning into the heart of the believer, which can be replicated by no one and nothing, it is just that the religious believer finds that belief in God and doing good deeds for God brings them purpose in their life. This does not mean God exists. It functions in a similar way to an imaginary friend. Many young kids have imaginary friends. Why? Because it gives them comfort and purpose. Is that evidence that the imaginary friend exists? Ofcourse not.

    So there you have it. It is this which leads me to believe that it is the very fact that religion offers us a purpose (second definition) in life which means it potentially makes our life more dull, rather than more meaningful, especially if that purpose is particularly extensive.

    Please tell me your thoughts, I have to go for dinner before it closes at 7pm. I'll be back! thnkyu


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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