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 Topic: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??

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  • Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     OP - February 04, 2009, 06:48 AM
    I don't understand it, why the hell do they take every story from the Qur'an as literal? Most Christians and Jews consider Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, Abraham sacrificing his sons to god, and Jesus healing the sick as myths and tales, but muslims have to take it to the extreme. One muslim told me that his family traced their lineage to NOAH...NOAH!!! Thinking hard Its absolutely pathetic. Ex-muslims, when you guys were muslims, how did you view the Qur'an's account on the prophets and their stories?
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #1 - February 04, 2009, 07:03 AM
    most muslims are brainfed that the quran is perfectly perfect in every way shape form taste color size smell and even when viewed through infrared.

    they are taught that for their whole lives... but they aren't actually taught the quran with meaning... because it's a lot more difficult to explain how everything in it is actually perfect contrary to common sense.

    that's why they believe. and at an older age, if you confront them... they get super defensive and if you corner them they become even more adamant because then it becomes not just about their communal pride, but about their very character, their family's belief... and heck, by challenging the omnipotence of the quran, you're really challenging the omnipotence of their beloved parents...

    they are in a communal pre-teen stage of the socio-evolution of their religion. just wait till they hit puberty. here's a hint of a possible future: adolescent-rebellion/protestant-equivalent!? lol... just kidding.  grin12
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #2 - February 04, 2009, 07:14 AM
    Quote from: SalahuddinR on February 04, 2009, 07:03 AM
    most muslims are brainfed that the quran is perfectly perfect in every way shape form taste color size smell and even when viewed through infrared.

    they are taught that for their whole lives... but they aren't actually taught the quran with meaning... because it's a lot more difficult to explain how everything in it is actually perfect contrary to common sense.

    that's why they believe. and at an older age, if you confront them... they get super defensive and if you corner them they become even more adamant because then it becomes not just about their communal pride, but about their very character, their family's belief... and heck, by challenging the omnipotence of the quran, you're really challenging the omnipotence of their beloved parents...

    they are in a communal pre-teen stage of the socio-evolution of their religion. just wait till they hit puberty. here's a hint of a possible future: adolescent-rebellion/protestant-equivalent!? lol... just kidding.  grin12


    Good point. But it seriously saddens me. When I had a religions class in university, there were christians, jews, muslims, sikhs, hindus, deists and atheists in the class. Almost every religious group. The professor asked the whole class if their beliefs could be wrong, just by a little bit, if they had just a bit of doubt. I kid you not, literally EVERY person in the class admit that their beliefs could be wrong. Everyone put up their hand, but except muslims. NOT ONE muslim put up their hand. They can be INCREDIBLY stubborn. They are the only religious people I have ever met who have NO doubts. I think absolute certainty is not a good thing. There is NOTHING wrong with having doubts, its perfectly normal. It makes me want to smack them upside their head. Again, sorry if i sounded like a prick, but their ignorance is ridiculous. Until they can actually accept the fact that these stories are fables and stop taking the Qur'an so fucking literally, I can never see them progress in the future. A vast majority of Jews and Christians (and other religious groups) in the western world have taken this step, now the Muslims should start doing the same.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #3 - February 04, 2009, 07:33 AM
    i don't think belief in the quran stops them from progressing...

    i mean, it doesn't stop them from learning calculus, for one thing. they're also pretty darn good lawyers, doctors and engineers... even businessmen. heck, even architects... and all of them may believe the quran is perfectly perfect.

    what they can't be though... is cutting edge scientists, philosophers, social scientists, etc... because these require a critical mind.

    you seem very irritated by them. and here i thought you can smack a canadian any time you want without him/her getting the least bit upset.  dance

    it's okay. they're idiots. talk to them about something other than religion and you'll find them tolerable.
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #4 - February 04, 2009, 07:47 AM
    Quote from: SalahuddinR on February 04, 2009, 07:33 AM
    i don't think belief in the quran stops them from progressing...

    i mean, it doesn't stop them from learning calculus, for one thing. they're also pretty darn good lawyers, doctors and engineers... even businessmen. heck, even architects... and all of them may believe the quran is perfectly perfect.

    what they can't be though... is cutting edge scientists, philosophers, social scientists, etc... because these require a critical mind.

    you seem very irritated by them. and here i thought you can smack a canadian any time you want without him/her getting the least bit upset.  dance

    it's okay. they're idiots. talk to them about something other than religion and you'll find them tolerable.


    I don't dislike muslims. I know a lot of them, and they are good people. My BIGGEST problem is that they can be arrogant, ignorant, stubborn and foolish at times. lol, i do try to change the subject and talk about other things (movies, sports, school etc) but they mention allah, muhammad and islam every fucking 2 minutes. They can't stop talking about Islam for 2 minutes, its like they always have to bring it up. And they praise Muhammad every time I see them. I met one girl who said she loves Muhammad more than her parents/siblings/relatives, what a whackjob Cheesy. But thats one thing that bothered me about Islam, you must love muhammad more than your own family, which is something I can't do. Not only love, emulate his every fucking action, all to how he sipped on water to how he dressed to how he took a shit and how he wiped his ass! Whenever I think of it, it makes Islam seem like a cult, pure emulation.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #5 - February 04, 2009, 07:49 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on February 04, 2009, 06:48 AM
    I don't understand it, why the hell do they take every story from the Qur'an as literal? Most Christians and Jews consider Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, Abraham sacrificing his sons to god, and Jesus healing the sick as myths and tales, but muslims have to take it to the extreme. One muslim told me that his family traced their lineage to NOAH...NOAH!!! Thinking hard Its absolutely pathetic. Ex-muslims, when you guys were muslims, how did you view the Qur'an's account on the prophets and their stories?


    The Qur'an is believed to be the actual, literal (and even uncreated) speech of God.

    Even though some Christians refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" they don't mean it in the same 'literal' way that Muslims mean it.

    That fundamental difference made it easier for Christians to develop a strong tradition of textual criticism along with non-literal/metaphorical traditions that represent the mainstream.

    Muslims cannot see any fault in the text because it is perfect. To suggest otherwise is blasphemy.

    There are non-literal/metaphysical interpretations but the literal interpretations still tend to dominate.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #6 - February 04, 2009, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 04, 2009, 07:49 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on February 04, 2009, 06:48 AM
    I don't understand it, why the hell do they take every story from the Qur'an as literal? Most Christians and Jews consider Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, Abraham sacrificing his sons to god, and Jesus healing the sick as myths and tales, but muslims have to take it to the extreme. One muslim told me that his family traced their lineage to NOAH...NOAH!!! Thinking hard Its absolutely pathetic. Ex-muslims, when you guys were muslims, how did you view the Qur'an's account on the prophets and their stories?


    The Qur'an is believed to be the actual, literal (and even uncreated) speech of God.

    Even though some Christians refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" they don't mean it in the same 'literal' way that Muslims mean it.

    That fundamental difference made it easier for Christians to develop a strong tradition of textual criticism along with non-literal/metaphorical traditions that represent the mainstream.

    Muslims cannot see any fault in the text because it is perfect. To suggest otherwise is blasphemy.

    There are non-literal/metaphysical interpretations but the literal interpretations still tend to dominate.



    Yea, thats true. But sometimes I ask myself, how can they believe this nonsense. Do they seriously believe that god flooded all of earth, killed all the people and Noah and his sons/wives repopulated the earth? I mean for fucks sake, they should critically think about it and stop blindly believing in this. Sorry if I sound pissed, but it grinds my gears!! lol
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #7 - February 04, 2009, 07:56 AM
    I can't understand taking everything literally but I can understand certainty (yakin). In a world where everything is uncertain, it's very reassuring that the Qur'an is absolutely a book in which there is no doubt. One has to hold fast to the rope of Allah (SWT) (3:101). Rasulullah (salallalhu alaihi wasallam) promised in his very last message to us that he left us "the Quran and the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray." If Allah (SWT) is the Lord of the worlds that includes my world too. When certainty dissipates and vanishes, for the former believer, it's like people are scattered about like moths and the mountains are like carded wool. Like bad acid in other words.
    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #8 - February 04, 2009, 08:05 AM
    Hi Cool Canadian! I wasn't ever Muslim, but my mom is and her entire family is. My mom certainly doesn't take Mohammed as her ideal, she says people living back then did behave in ways which might seem unacceptable to us today. But my mom's dad, my grand dad, he was once telling us how the Meccans' persecuted Mohammed, and he started crying. No kidding!

    I agree with you, people who take every unbelievable tale in their Scriptures literally seem very silly if not slightly insane to me, and Muslims' are more like that compared to people of other faiths.

    While I dislike Ali Sina, I do feel that he has a point about Mohammed, anyone who believes Mohammed is an ideal man will surely have difficulty being good.  At worst Jesus was a Benny Hinn kind of faith healer\charlatan of his day, but I'm sure if I criticised him, he wouldn't cut off my head. Ditto for the Buddha, who as a prince, could've easily forced people to accept his faith, but didn't. Mohammed is a poor example of a Prophet supposedly sent by God, IMO.

    But other faiths have such literalists too, Sarah Palin's Pastor chanting spells to protect her from witchcraft, young Earth Creationists etc, just that these people are fewer and far between.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #9 - February 04, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 04, 2009, 08:05 AM
    anyone who believes Mohammed is an ideal man will surely have difficulty being good


    I disagree with this (and Ali Sina). I believed Muhammad was an ideal man for almost 30 years and I never had trouble being good.

    Like most Muslims, I believed all the nice things and either rejected all the bad things or interpreted them in a nice way.

    I have a big problem with the way Ali Sina implies that a good Muslim cannot be a good human being as it is not only not true in my experience, but more than that I find it a very dangerous thing to say and demonizes "good" Muslims.

    A "Good" Muslim - to some thug from the BNP can be the quiet old Muslim guy who doesn't come down the pub at lunch time.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #10 - February 04, 2009, 01:46 PM
    Yes of course, I understand this Hassan my grandfather also says that Mohammed is the "insaan i kamil" or  the perfect man and he's a very good man as well.

    Its just that when I compare Mohammed's life with the founders of two other world faiths, Buddha or Jesus as a non religious person, I find him pretty immoral.

    Maybe Moses is somewhat like him but the Jews' don't proselytize nor have I seen them killing people or banning books that portray him negatively.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #11 - February 04, 2009, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 04, 2009, 01:46 PM
    Its just that when I compare Mohammed's life with the founders of two other world faiths, Buddha or Jesus as a non religious person, I find him pretty immoral.


    That's true. I think if Muslims take their rose-coloured spectacles  off and really took a long hard look at Muhammad they would find a man who is very much less than perfect.

    But that's quite different from saying "anyone who believes Mohammed is an ideal man will have difficulty being good"

    That demonizes Muslims themselves and is just the sort of thing bigots want to hear to justify attacking "good" Muslims.

    This is why I am completely opposed to Ali Sina and those who follow this view as they are paving the way for the bigots, haters and death-squads we already see in Russia where Muslims are being dragged from the streets and beheaded in near-by woods.

    I take this very seriously.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #12 - February 04, 2009, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 04, 2009, 01:58 PM

    That demonizes Muslims themselves and is just the sort of thing bigots want to hear to justify attacking "good" Muslims.

    This is why I am completely opposed to Ali Sina and those who follow this view as they are paving the way for the bigots, haters and death-squads we already see in Russia where Muslims are being dragged from the streets and beheaded in near-by woods.

    I take this very seriously.


    I take that very seriously too, how can I not seeing how nice my mom and her Muslim relatives are, and I dislike Ali Sina type of bigots as well. And the Sufis who almost deify Mohammed are some of the most tolerant Muslims. Its just that, all religions require some amount of explaining away stuff that seem unethical and accepting Mohammed as a paragon of virtue requires a greater degree of this. But of course millions of Muslims have managed to do this, and it was wrong of me to make such sweeping generalizations.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #13 - February 04, 2009, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 04, 2009, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 04, 2009, 01:58 PM

    That demonizes Muslims themselves and is just the sort of thing bigots want to hear to justify attacking "good" Muslims.

    This is why I am completely opposed to Ali Sina and those who follow this view as they are paving the way for the bigots, haters and death-squads we already see in Russia where Muslims are being dragged from the streets and beheaded in near-by woods.

    I take this very seriously.


    I take that very seriously too, how can I not seeing how nice my mom and her Muslim relatives are, and I dislike Ali Sina type of bigots as well. And the Sufis who almost deify Mohammed are some of the most tolerant Muslims. Its just that, all religions require some amount of explaining away stuff that seem unethical and accepting Mohammed as a paragon of virtue requires a greater degree of this. But of course millions of Muslims have managed to do this, and it was wrong of me to make such sweeping generalizations.





    You two echo my thoughts. I'm glad to see others recognize bigotry against islam/muslims too, even when they don't believe in the religion.  yes
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #14 - February 05, 2009, 04:22 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on February 04, 2009, 07:47 AM

    I don't dislike muslims. I know a lot of them, and they are good people. My BIGGEST problem is that they can be arrogant, ignorant, stubborn and foolish at times. lol, i do try to change the subject and talk about other things (movies, sports, school etc) but they mention allah, muhammad and islam every fucking 2 minutes. They can't stop talking about Islam for 2 minutes, its like they always have to bring it up. And they praise Muhammad every time I see them. I met one girl who said she loves Muhammad more than her parents/siblings/relatives, what a whackjob Cheesy. But thats one thing that bothered me about Islam, you must love muhammad more than your own family, which is something I can't do. Not only love, emulate his every fucking action, all to how he sipped on water to how he dressed to how he took a shit and how he wiped his ass! Whenever I think of it, it makes Islam seem like a cult, pure emulation.


    The fact that you're melting down post after post over someone's personal beliefs should indicate that maybe it's time to re-evaluate your motives.

    I can't say I don't relate... I think most of us never-been-Muslims have had moments similar to this.  But if you don't keep those feelings in check, you run risk of becoming nothing more than a bigot.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #15 - February 05, 2009, 05:36 AM
    ditto above.
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #16 - February 05, 2009, 08:06 AM
    Quote
    I met one girl who said she loves Muhammad more than her parents/siblings/relatives, what a whackjob Cheesy. But thats one thing that bothered me about Islam, you must love muhammad more than your own family, which is something I can't do.


    That's not just in Islam.

    He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me (Matt. 10:37)

    The hadiths have made me hate Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wasallam) in the past. And before that I too loved him - at one stage even more than I loved Allah (SWT). Now I think he meant well. He just took Abrahamic religion and tried to fit it to suit his people who he considered to be in darkness. He may have even believed he was the Messenger of Allah.

    Despite the abhorent words and deeds ascribed to him, and the apparently patriarchal nature of Abrahamic religion, I think the fact that there are so-called "proggies", Sufis and others show that Muhammad was not the evil man people like to think of him. At worst he was a great man for his times. I think in a lot of things he was ahead of his time (eg. regarding his attitude to racism/tribalism).

    There's much in Islam I like. Islam moulds you and mostly thats harmless and even enriching. Personally I blame the fuqaha. For example take this hadith:

    Narrated Wabisah ibn Ma'bad (radiyallahu anhu): 'I came to the Messenger of Allah (salallahu alaihi wasallam) who said, "You have come to ask about righteousness?'

    'Yes,' I answered

    He said, 'Ask your own heart for a fatwa. Righteousness is when the soul feels peace and the heart feels peace, and sin is what creates restlessness in the soul, and rumbles in the bosom, even though people give their opinion (in your favour) and continue to do so.' (Nawawi)

    Then check out what Shaikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi has to say about this.
    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #17 - February 05, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Variable on February 05, 2009, 04:22 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on February 04, 2009, 07:47 AM

    I don't dislike muslims. I know a lot of them, and they are good people. My BIGGEST problem is that they can be arrogant, ignorant, stubborn and foolish at times. lol, i do try to change the subject and talk about other things (movies, sports, school etc) but they mention allah, muhammad and islam every fucking 2 minutes. They can't stop talking about Islam for 2 minutes, its like they always have to bring it up. And they praise Muhammad every time I see them. I met one girl who said she loves Muhammad more than her parents/siblings/relatives, what a whackjob Cheesy. But thats one thing that bothered me about Islam, you must love muhammad more than your own family, which is something I can't do. Not only love, emulate his every fucking action, all to how he sipped on water to how he dressed to how he took a shit and how he wiped his ass! Whenever I think of it, it makes Islam seem like a cult, pure emulation.


    The fact that you're melting down post after post over someone's personal beliefs should indicate that maybe it's time to re-evaluate your motives.

    I can't say I don't relate... I think most of us never-been-Muslims have had moments similar to this.  But if you don't keep those feelings in check, you run risk of becoming nothing more than a bigot.


    I second what Variable just said, CC.

    Many of the annoying traits you see in Muslims can be seen in others. It also seems that you know only Muslims who keep talking about Allah, Muhammad and Islam every two minutes - which is strange since I know a great many who don't - even to other Muslims.

    Take a step back, a deep breath and stop making generalizations.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #18 - February 05, 2009, 10:35 AM
    Hey, I've run into many a born again Christian who won't stop talking about how I need to find Jesus in order to be saved.  I find them just as annoying as many sanctimonious Muslim. 

    At least you won't find Muslims showing up on your doorstep to prosylitize like the Christians tend to do.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #19 - February 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Believing that Muhammad was a perfect man might be very problematic as he was in my view a tyrant, a con man and a murderous sexual deviant but as Hassan says, it doesn't stop one from being a good person.

    If you follow the teachings of Muhammad and you are a good person you will find the goodness within because we are like mirrors.

    If you are full of hate you can turn even Buddhism into the Japanese Empire and ultimately The Kamikaze.

    Good people can follow bad people and bad people can follow good people.

    I know this might ruffle a few feathers but if you want to know the truth of it, people can be good and follow Mugabe, Milosovic, Pol Pot even Hitler.

    With a little mental gymnastics we are all potential followers of tyrants. It's been proven in peer reviewed science more than once.

    Good people are easily manipulated into to following bad leaders.

    There is no way that every single German who supported The Third Reich was a racist scumbag.

    Good people can go along with bad things because we are capable of partitioning the rational mind away from our emotions. 
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #20 - February 07, 2009, 03:06 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Believing that Muhammad was a perfect man might be very problematic as he was in my view a tyrant, a con man and a murderous sexual deviant but as Hassan says, it doesn't stop one from being a good person.

    If you follow the teachings of Muhammad and you are a good person you will find the goodness within because we are like mirrors.

    If you are full of hate you can turn even Buddhism into the Japanese Empire and ultimately The Kamikaze.

    Good people can follow bad people and bad people can follow good people.

    I know this might ruffle a few feathers but if you want to know the truth of it, people can be good and follow Mugabe, Milosovic, Pol Pot even Hitler.

    With a little mental gymnastics we are all potential followers of tyrants. It's been proven in peer reviewed science more than once.

    Good people are easily manipulated into to following bad leaders.

    There is no way that every single German who supported The Third Reich was a racist scumbag.

    Good people can go along with bad things because we are capable of partitioning the rational mind away from our emotions. 


    Well said, Bruce -  Afro
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #21 - February 07, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    I know this might ruffle a few feathers but if you want to know the truth of it, people can be good and follow Mugabe, Milosovic, Pol Pot even Hitler.

    Agree
    Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    With a little mental gymnastics we are all potential followers of tyrants. It's been proven in peer reviewed science more than once.

    No.  Those that are intelligent, logical and able to think for themselves will not all fall into this trap.
    Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Good people can go along with bad things because we are capable of partitioning the rational mind away from our emotions. 

    Again too simplistic. You can also be good, and thick & gullible.
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  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #22 - February 07, 2009, 03:54 PM
    When good people follow bad people, the good people become worse. The good people will never reach their full potential for goodness. Conversely when evil people follow good people, they do not reach the full potential for their evil.

    I portray evil as being a character weakness or a mental problem (compulsion).
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #23 - February 07, 2009, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: abdalwali on February 05, 2009, 08:06 AM

    Despite the abhorent words and deeds ascribed to him, and the apparently patriarchal nature of Abrahamic religion, I think the fact that there are so-called "proggies", Sufis and others show that Muhammad was not the evil man people like to think of him. At worst he was a great man for his times. I think in a lot of things he was ahead of his time (eg. regarding his attitude to racism/tribalism).


       

    How was Mohammed ahead of his time regarding his attitude to racism and tribalism abdalwali? That would only be true if he was living in a  racist or tribalist society and his message was against that sort of racism and tribalism, even if that message couldn't change the society.

    Pre Islamic Arabia if anything was a pretty religiously tolerant society. Conversions from the Arabian paganism to other faiths was clearly allowed, without any apparent threat to life or how did Khadija's uncle Waraqa ibn Nawfal convert to Christianity, and discuss religion with Mohammed? Today, any Saudi Arabian convert to Christianity or other faiths would face the death sentence. Even if the Quran sanctions no earthly punishment for apostasy, and the hadith sanctioning death refers to a war situation, the Koran does ask Christians to pay the jiziya tax and humbly keep to themselves.
     Embarrassed     
    Also pre Islamic Arabs could marry a non Arab pagan and raise their children in any faith the parents' chose. Thats' how Jewish leader Kaab ibn Al Ashraf's father could marry a Jewish woman and his son could becoma a Jew and a leader of a Jewish tribe. According to the Quran, Jews also have to pay the jiziya tax like Christians, a Muslim man can marry a Jewish or Christian woman which a Muslim woman can't.

    A society which let Waraqa ibn Nawfal adopt Christianity clearly allowed freedom of conscience, but a society which asked converts to other faiths to either be killed, leave the land or at best feel humbled and pay the jiziya tax as the post Mohammed Arabic society did had clearly become more tribalistic, not less.
    Also a society which lets an Arab man like Kaab's father marry a Jewess and lets their son be a Jew is a more tolerant society than the one Mohammed envisaged.

    Christians' and Jews' relations with pagans in Pre Islamic Saudi Arabia:  cheers
    Christians' and Jews' relations with Muslims' in post Islamic Saudi Arabia:   Shark 

    And the second class citizenship of Christians' and Jews' as well as the sanctioning of brutality and death to all idolaters by Mohammed was responsible for this change. So how did he do away with racism and tribalism?
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #24 - February 07, 2009, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 07, 2009, 04:53 PM
    I think in a lot of things he was ahead of his time (eg. regarding his attitude to racism/tribalism).

       
    Yes, it would be interesting to see what you mean..
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  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #25 - February 07, 2009, 06:31 PM
    Good post Rashna, it peeves me when people fall for the stories of how the arabs were intolerant and ignorant as islam is forced to portray them.

    There was almost 400 statues around the kaaba. It does not get much more tolerant than this in a 7th century desert. It is also important to note that the sharia did not bring anything objectively good, new to the Arabs. Nothing that the Arabs did not already have.

    The only positive item in the entire sharia i found was that it made burying infant girls to be illegal. Which is something that was already practiced in the arab cities and by muhammad's extended family.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #26 - February 07, 2009, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: Baal on February 07, 2009, 06:31 PM
    The only positive item in the entire sharia i found was that it made burying infant girls to be illegal. Which is something that was already practiced in the arab cities and by muhammad's extended family.

    ..and that good was probably only born out of self-interest.  Why end the life of future Muslim baby breeders?
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  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #27 - February 08, 2009, 12:05 AM
    No you're right. Muhammad was a racist, tribalist and everything else bad. I have no basis for anything I say. Was just talking for fun. I shall not do so in future.

    Peace,

    Abdalwali.
    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #28 - February 08, 2009, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: abdalwali on February 08, 2009, 12:05 AM
    No you're right. Muhammad was a racist, tribalist and everything else bad. I have no basis for anything I say. Was just talking for fun. I shall not do so in future.

    Peace,

    Abdalwali.


    It's OK, abdalwali, I don't believe for one minute that Muhammad was the completely evil and cunning manipulator people like Baal like to portray him.

    I believe he was like all of us, some good and some bad characteristics. Above all he was a man of his time and context.

    I also believe he genuinely believed in what he preached and that he believed God was talking to him and I certainly don't hate him.

    Of course I don't believe he was a prophet and that many of the things he did and said now look barbaric by today's standards and context.

    But I try to be balanced in my view of him.

    I also find myself continually irritated by Baals fanaticism in portraying Muhammad as completely bad - best to ignore him. Each time I read his comments I feel like leaving the forum. So I try to ignore him everytime he pokes his nose in.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #29 - February 08, 2009, 01:29 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 07, 2009, 04:53 PM
    And the second class citizenship of Christians' and Jews' as well as the sanctioning of brutality and death to all idolaters by Mohammed was responsible for this change. So how did he do away with racism and tribalism?


    When it came to tribalism, he simply re-oriented it from being about kinship ties to shared faith.  The critical 'us vs them' component was never lost.  And even then, I remember something from a few ahadith that mentioned you should marry within a certain level associated with your tribe... though I'm not sure how substantiated that was.
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