Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 11:23 PM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
Yesterday at 10:20 PM

News From Syria
Yesterday at 05:58 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Yesterday at 10:47 AM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
June 14, 2025, 10:20 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 13, 2025, 06:51 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
June 12, 2025, 09:49 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
June 11, 2025, 01:06 PM

New Britain
June 06, 2025, 10:16 AM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM

What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM

What's happened to the fo...
June 01, 2025, 10:43 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??

 (Read 17621 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #30 - February 08, 2009, 02:03 AM

    The only positive item in the entire sharia i found was that it made burying infant girls to be illegal. Which is something that was already practiced in the arab cities and by muhammad's extended family.

    ..and that good was probably only born out of self-interest.  Why end the life of future Muslim baby breeders?


    You are being sarcastic, aren't you?  Huh?

    Its a good thing that Muhammed's family and Arabs generally tried to save girls from infanticide.  And it's a point in Muhammed's favour that he wrote that tradition into Islamic law.  It was a humanistic, not a cynical, "baby breeders" thing.

    I do hope you were being sarcastic, IsLame,  I thought more of you than that.    Cry

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #31 - February 08, 2009, 05:48 AM


    How was Mohammed ahead of his time regarding his attitude to racism and tribalism abdalwali? That would only be true if he was living in a  racist or tribalist society and his message was against that sort of racism and tribalism, even if that message couldn't change the society.
    (...)
    So how did he do away with racism and tribalism?

    Quote from: The Prophet's Last Sermon delivered on Mt. 'Arafat, on the day of 'Arafat 9/12/0010 A.H
    ... All of mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good deeds. Know that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves. ...


    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah al-Hujurat 49:13
    O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with All?h is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaq?n (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, All?h is All-Knowing, All-Aware.


    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah ar-Rum 30:22
    And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.


    Quote from: Muhammad, Sunan at-Tirmidhi
    I counsel you to fear and revere Allaah, and to listen and obey (your Muslim ruler); even if an Ethiopian slave becomes your leader...


    Muhammad's wives were mocking the wife Safiyya bint Huyy about her Jewish descent. Muhmmad came to her defense and said, "She is the daughter of Haroon, niece of Moosa, and her husband is Muhammad." That shut them up.

    What do you make of Salman al-Farsi, Bilal ibn Rabah, Abdullah bin Salam, etc. etc. ?

    I can find tons more.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #32 - February 08, 2009, 06:55 AM

    Quote from: Malcolm X, Letter from Mecca, April 1964
    Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this Ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

    I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca. I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad. I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat.

    There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blonds to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white.

    America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered 'white'--but the 'white' attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.

    You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to re-arrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.

    During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug)--while praying to the same God--with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions in the deeds of the 'white' Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.

    We were truly all the same (brothers)--because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude.

    I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man--and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color.

    With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster--the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.

    Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities--he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth--the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to.

    Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a 'white' man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. ... Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors--honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King--not a Negro.

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.

    Sincerely,

    El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz
    (Malcolm X)


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #33 - February 08, 2009, 07:07 AM

    Actually, awais, as variable has rightly pointed out, the us vs. them component simply never went away, it was merely Muslims vs. non believers now.

    Regarding Salman al-Farsi and Abdullah bin Salam, the tolerance and equality shown to them was only due to them having become Muslims, had Salman al Farsi sought equality as a Zoroastrian, he'd at best be asked to pay the jiziya tax and feel oppressed and marginalized. The same would be the fate of Abdullah bin Salam had he remained a Jew and sought equal rights with Muslims. Jew And of course, there's actually little tolerance shown to any polytheistic idolater, its either conversion or death. The difference between Muslims and non Muslim People of the Book are stark, and sanctioned by Mohammed, and the difference between Muslims and idolaters are immense, idolaters simply can't continue their mode of worship, they have to convert or be killed according to the Quran. Shooter

    Only in the case of Bilal, was Mohammed ahead of his time, although Arab slave trade often specifically targetted blacks, but nevertheless, Mohammed did attempt to bring equality between all his male believers.  Afro

    As for Mohammed's wife Safiyyah, maybe she'd face no inequal treatment, had Mohammed's wives remained pagan and not converted to Islam.  Muslimah
    After all, Kaab ibn Al Ashraf's mom certainly didn't have to convert to Arab paganism, she kept her own religion and even raised her son in her own religion, so that her son became the leader of a Jewish tribe. The superiority complex of Mohammed's wives might've been caused by Mohammed's announcement that he was the last Prophet of Allah, and His message to humankind was the last and the best, relegating Jews' to a lower place in the pecking order of Abrahamic faiths. Angry

    Replacing one form of racism\tribalism with another isn't doing away with racism and tribalism, however, you've got a point regarding Bilal, the Prophet did try to establish the equality of Black believers with others', even if the Arabs' didn't always listen to his advice.

    Nice letter by Malcolm, however, even recently Zawahiri called Obama a house negro in his native tongue, and Saudi Arabia's predominantly black slaves were liberated only in 1962, nearly a hundred years after America's all black slaves. However, Mohammed did try to establish a spirit of equality, and that seems to have had a positive effect on Muslims.

     

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #34 - February 08, 2009, 07:57 AM

    Actually, awais, as variable has rightly pointed out, the us vs. them component simply never went away, it was merely Muslims vs. non believers now.

    Tongue It unified people. Non-Muslims aren't meant to be treated harsh when they're not fighting Muslims, so as to beautify Islam in there eyes and invite them to submit to Allah, dawa.

    Quote
    Regarding Salman al-Farsi and Abdullah bin Salam, the tolerance and equality shown to them was only due to them having become Muslims, had Salman al Farsi sought equality as a Zoroastrian, he'd at best be asked to pay the jiziya tax and feel oppressed and marginalized. The same would be the fate of Abdullah bin Salam had he remained a Jew and sought equal rights with Muslims. And of course, there's actually little tolerance shown to any polytheistic idolater, its either conversion or death. The difference between Muslims and non Muslim People of the Book are stark, and sanctioned by Mohammed, and the difference between Muslims and idolaters are immense, idolaters simply can't continue their mode of worship, they have to convert or be killed according to the Quran.
    ...
    As for Mohammed's wife Safiyyah, maybe she'd face no inequal treatment, had Mohammed's wives remained pagan and not converted to Islam.

    What of the Golden Age of Judaism, which was in Muslim Spain? Jews were safer to live in, and more prosperous in Muslim lands than Christian ones. Not until the rise of Zionism was there widespread anti-semitism in Dar al-Islam as there was in The West.

    Muhammad himself got along with Jews and Christians when they weren't fighting him. He died with his armour pawned to a Jew. He said if your neighbors are hungry, even non-Muslim, and you (as a muslim) are full, then you are not a true Muslim; he fed his hungry Jewish neighbors, visited their sick (even if it was just to invite them to Islam Roll Eyes Tongue)... There were no problems unless they betrayed him by siding with his enemies in war.

    What of the Mughal Emperor Akbar, who repealed the Jizya, tolerated Hindus and let them flourish; even his favourite wife was Hindu, a forbidden marriage according to the Qur'an.

    Quote
    Nice letter by Malcolm, however, even recently Zawahiri called Obama a house negro in his native tongue, and Saudi Arabia's predominantly black slaves were liberated only in 1962, nearly a hundred years after America's all black slaves. However, Mohammed did try to establish a spirit of equality, and that seems to have had a positive effect on Muslims.

    Actually Zawahiri was referring to Malcolm X, because that phrase comes from him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

    Quote from: Malcolm X, Message To The Grass Roots
    To understand this, you have to go back to what [the] young brother here referred to as the house Negro and the field Negro -- back during slavery. There was two kinds of slaves. There was the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes - they lived in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good 'cause they ate his food -- what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but still they lived near the master; and they loved their master more than the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master's house quicker than the master would. The house Negro, if the master said, "We got a good house here," the house Negro would say, "Yeah, we got a good house here." Whenever the master said "we," he said "we." That's how you can tell a house Negro.

    If the master's house caught on fire, the house Negro would fight harder to put the blaze out than the master would. If the master got sick, the house Negro would say, "What's the matter, boss, we sick?" We sick!? He identified himself with his master more than his master identified with himself. And if you came to the house Negro and said, "Let's run away, let's escape, let's separate," the house Negro would look at you and say, "Man, you crazy. What you mean, separate? Where is there a better house than this? Where can I wear better clothes than this? Where can I eat better food than this?" That was that house Negro. In those days he was called a "house nigger." And that's what we call him today, because we've still got some house niggers running around here.

    This modern house Negro loves his master. He wants to live near him. He'll pay three times as much as the house is worth just to live near his master, and then brag about "I'm the only Negro out here." "I'm the only one on my job." "I'm the only one in this school." You're nothing but a house Negro. And if someone comes to you right now and says, "Let's separate," you say the same thing that the house Negro said on the plantation. "What you mean, separate? From America? This good white man? Where you going to get a better job than you get here?" I mean, this is what you say. "I ain't left nothing in Africa," that's what you say. Why, you left your mind in Africa.

    On that same plantation, there was the field Negro. The field Negro -- those were the masses. There were always more Negroes in the field than there was Negroes in the house. The Negro in the field caught hell. He ate leftovers. In the house they ate high up on the hog. The Negro in the field didn't get nothing but what was left of the insides of the hog. They call 'em "chitt'lin'" nowadays. In those days they called them what they were: guts. That's what you were -- a gut-eater. And some of you all still gut-eaters.

    The field Negro was beaten from morning to night. He lived in a shack, in a hut; He wore old, castoff clothes. He hated his master. I say he hated his master. He was intelligent. That house Negro loved his master. But that field Negro -- remember, they were in the majority, and they hated the master. When the house caught on fire, he didn't try and put it out; that field Negro prayed for a wind, for a breeze. When the master got sick, the field Negro prayed that he'd die. If someone come [sic] to the field Negro and said, "Let's separate, let's run," he didn't say "Where we going?" He'd say, "Any place is better than here." You've got field Negroes in America today. I'm a field Negro. The masses are the field Negroes. When they see this man's house on fire, you don't hear these little Negroes talking about "our government is in trouble." They say, "The government is in trouble." Imagine a Negro: "Our government"! I even heard one say "our astronauts." They won't even let him near the plant -- and "our astronauts"! "Our Navy" -- that's a Negro that's out of his mind. That's a Negro that's out of his mind.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #35 - February 08, 2009, 12:22 PM

    I am from India, awais, and history is a compulsory subject for my grade, you don't have to teach me about Akbar. Well, what about him? He was born in a land of millions of Hindus, which had a tiny ruling Muslim elite, and inspite of many conversions, many by sword and many by choice, the majority population remained Hindu, and despised and disliked Muslim rule. By his time, Muslims had managed to wipe out idolatrous Buddhism from India, but not idolatrous Hinduism. He realised he had to win the loyalty of his Hindu subjects, pure and simple. Even his marriages to Hindu princesses were dynastic alliances, the Hindu Rajputs were a thorn in the side of Muslim rule in India, Akbar by placating them, momentarily secured peace.

    In a way, Akbar's tolerance to Hindus was similar to the Arab slave trade of Blacks, both were forbidden under Islam, yet both happened since they were practical. Its an unfortunate fact that, blacks were enslaved by Arabs and even sold off to white buyers, as that fetched them good money, although as you yourself had pointed out before, Mohammed declared blacks equal to non blacks and had Muslims strictly followed that advice, they couldn't participate in any black slave trade. Religion teaching was sacrificed at the altar of convenience.

    What  does the Quran teach of idolaters? Sura IX.5: ?Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them ?? These words are usually cited to show what fate awaits idolaters. Well, what of the context? The words immediately after these just quoted say, ?and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them.? Ah, you might say, you have deliberately left out the words that come after those. Let us quote them then, ?If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.? Surely these are words of tolerance, you plead. Hardly: they are saying that if they become Muslims then they will be left in peace.Take to prayer and render the alms levy=become Muslims. In fact, the whole sura,  is totally intolerant; and is indeed the source of many totalitarian Islamic laws and principles, such as the concepts of Jihad and dhimmis, the latter proclaiming the inferior status of Christians and Jews in an Islamic state. Even Muslim apologist Amien Rias has admitted that Islam is "brutal to polytheists"

    First the idolaters, how can you trust them? Most of them are evildoers (IX. Cool; fight them (IX. 12, 14); they must not visit mosques (IX. 18); they are unclean (IX. 28); you may fight the idolaters even during the sacred months (IX. 36). ?It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin after it has become clear they are people of hell-fire.? (IX.113) So much for forgiveness!

    However, if Akbar had to remain King over an idolatrous population, he had to have some sort of solution to permanent wars with them. Trying to convert them all to Islam, as previous Muslim rulers had done, and as Mohammed had done with Meccan idolaters and as Muslims managed largely to do with the Zoroastrians, Coptic Christians and others clearly hadn't worked with Hindu idolaters, who clung tenaciously to their faith. As a ruler Akbar utilised his common sense, even if what he did was a violation of Quranic teachings.

    As Seneca said,  "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Akbar was a wise ruler, who realised the utility of tolerance even if that tolerance didn't come from the Quranic principles, just like the Arab slave traders realised the utility of race based slave trade to fatten their wallets even if their actions were explicitly forbidden by Mohammed.Or maybe Akbar was a genuinely good person, but he wasn't really helped in his goodness by the Quran's teachings on the issue.

    I will come back to the issue of Jews later.
     

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #36 - February 08, 2009, 12:36 PM

    If it's alright I would like to add the following rehashed excerpt from my introduction to this forum. Yes I know my buddy Baal thinks he's refuted most of these but that's his opinion and I have my own.

    35:27 Seest thou not that Allah sends down water from the clouds, then We bring forth therewith fruits of various hues? And in the mountains are streaks, white and red, of various hues and (others) intensely black.
    35:28 And of men and beasts and cattle there are various colours likewise. Those of his servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah. Surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.

    30:22 And yet others of His signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colors; surely there are signs in this for the knowledgeable.

    32:7 [Allah] made beautiful everything that He created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

    Sayyid Qutb writes that "in Egypt, the principal jurist consulted in the days of Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz was Yazid ibn Abi Habib who was a black client from Dongola" [Islam and Social Justice 2000, p.190].

    'Once the Messenger of Allah while entering a mosque saw a man surrounded by the people. The Prophet enquired about the man. He was informed that the man was an 'Allamah. The Prophet enquired, "What is an 'Allamah?" The people told the Prophet, "'Allamah is a person who of all the people knows most about Arab lineage, Arab battles, the days of ignorance, and all about the Arab verses and Arab literature." Hearing this the Prophet remarked, "This is precisely the knowledge, the acquisition of which is neither of any profit nor is the non-acquisition of it of any loss."' [Kitab Al-Kafi, The Book of Excellence of Knowledge, 46-1]

    Al-Bukhari reported that Abu Dharr and Bilal, the Abyssinian, both of whom were among the earliest Muslims, once quarreled and insulted each other. Carried away by his anger, Abu Dharr said to Bilal, "You son of a black woman!" Bilal complained about this to the Prophet (peace be on him), who turned to Abu Dharr, saying, "Are you taunting him about his mother? There is still some influence of jahiliyyah in you!'' (Reported by al-Bukhari.)

    If a non-Arab muslim recites the Holy Quran in his own language, angels will take it up in its correct Arabic version (Shia hadith)

    More info on Islam and racism can be found here.

    While I'm not saying Muhammad (pbuh) did away with divisions altogether (as I clearly stated in my post on this topic on Boxing Day) racism, at least for me, is a particularly nasty form of discrimination - like sexism - because one cannot convert to another 'race'; at least not as easily as one can convert to a religion.

    It was admirable that the pagan Arabs respected Jewish descent laws passed on from the mother to the child, however they did not respect Muhammad's ideas about religion even when he was peaceful for the first 13 years of his 23 year period. They seriously harrassed him but maybe they were right to do so because Muhammad sucks etc.

    I understand that this board is comprised predominantly of people who despise Muhammad and Islam. However I don't. Insha Allah I'm entitled to retain just a modicum of respect for the man that so many love. Strange thing ? the more I read the vitriol of people who trash Muhammad and Islam, the more my love grows for this religion which I detested when I first started posting here Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #37 - February 08, 2009, 01:09 PM

    As for tolerance to the Jews awais, well that would be an improvement only if Prophet Mohammed had lived amongst a virulently anti Semitic people. Why are you comparing Mohammed's tolerance to Jews to Medieval Christianity awais? Was Mohammed a medieval Christian? Nope. He was an Arab pagan, a resident of a land and belonging to a faith which hadn't ever shown any intolerance to Jews, even judging from Muslim sources.

    As for Jews in Muslim lands, sure they were better off, but were never equal. Its interesting to note that the yellow badge originated in Medieval Baghdad, not Nazi Germany. There have been quite a few pogroms and massacres against them, in Morocco in 1728,1790,1875,1884 etc, Algeria in 1805, Persia in1839, 1867 and 1910 in Iraq in 1828, Libya in 1785,1860 etc, Syria in 1840 etc. Often they have been obliged, under pain of violence or even death to pass Muslims only on their left(impure) side. They've often been forced not to bear arms, give evidence in court or ride horses. And of course, there was te jizya, which was an Islamic innovation. Same holds true for Christians, earlier any pagan could convert to Christianity as Waraqa ibn Nawfal's case demonstrates after Islam conversion to Christianity  Nun= Jail time at best and  Headsman at worst.

    I grant it that Mohammed's attitude to Jews would've been an improvement on the standards of his times had he been a Medieval Christian, however, he lived in a society where Jews were equal. There's no evidence to them being tormented by the idolaters. Maybe thats' why  many of the Jews' joined the idolaters in their wars against Mohammed, they could see the total tolerance they enjoyed being replaced by partial tolerance.


    While I'm not saying Muhammad (pbuh) did away with divisions altogether (as I clearly stated in my post on this topic on Boxing Day) racism, at least for me, is a particularly nasty form of discrimination - like sexism - because one cannot convert to another 'race'; at least not as easily as one can convert to a religion.



    Why is religious discrimination any better? People are oftern very attached to their faith, its a difficult thing to renounce, as well as unneccessary. And why should anyone be forced to renounce their religion in order to be tolerated and equally treated? Its certainly not an "easy" choice even for the most tolerant, thats' why Jewish Daniel Pearl  could marry a Buddhist, have a wedding according to both faiths, but refused to renounce his Judaism before his captors. I'm not a religious person, but my non belief is particularly important to me, just like my gender or race. I would like to be accepted with all of them.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #38 - February 08, 2009, 01:39 PM

    Quote
    Why is religious discrimination any better?

     
    I didn't say it was better I was only responding to your earlier question "So how did he do away with racism and tribalism?" I don't believe anyone should be forced to renounce their religion (or non-religion) to be accepted. I was just saying Muhammad was anti-racist and that made him ahead of his time in this regard. I do think it's easier to make a false conversion than to change one's phenotypical features. Not having to do either would definitely be the best option.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #39 - February 08, 2009, 01:50 PM

    Quote
    In fact, the whole sura,  is totally intolerant; and is indeed the source of many totalitarian Islamic laws and principles, such as the concepts of Jihad and dhimmis, the latter proclaiming the inferior status of Christians and Jews in an Islamic state.


    Also Rashna, if you're going to quote other people's work - please quote your source (unless you are Ibn Warraq or Narnia who claims she is a Christian).

    You're a smart person, you don't need to resort to plagiarism insha Allah Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #40 - February 08, 2009, 02:18 PM


    You're a smart person, you don't need to resort to plagiarism insha Allah Smiley


    Patronising git.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #41 - February 08, 2009, 03:23 PM

    Akbar cannot even be called a Muslim, he was an agnost at heart, in fact he started his own religion called Din-i-Illahi

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #42 - February 08, 2009, 03:47 PM

    If it's alright I would like to add the following rehashed excerpt from my introduction to this forum. Yes I know my buddy Baal thinks he's refuted most of these but that's his opinion and I have my own.

    Hello Abdalwali,

    "Believing" and "everyone has the privilege of an opinion" is something bad being taught to us by neo-modernism. Stop doing it. Opinion is a right but Truth is the privilege. If the argument I made is valid and correct then it is a truth

    Cheers Smiley,


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #43 - February 08, 2009, 03:52 PM

    I am from India, awais, and history is a compulsory subject for my grade, you don't have to teach me about Akbar. Well, what about him? He was born in a land of millions of Hindus, which had a tiny ruling Muslim elite, and inspite of many conversions, many by sword and many by choice, the majority population remained Hindu, and despised and disliked Muslim rule. By his time, Muslims had managed to wipe out idolatrous Buddhism from India, but not idolatrous Hinduism. He realised he had to win the loyalty of his Hindu subjects, pure and simple. Even his marriages to Hindu princesses were dynastic alliances, the Hindu Rajputs were a thorn in the side of Muslim rule in India, Akbar by placating them, momentarily secured peace.

    This is a reply to Awais,
     
    Same scenario in Spain, when muslims first moved in they were a very very small minority, they started appealing to other minorities to help them control the majority. If you want to judge the islamic rule in Spain, judge it near the end of the islamic dynasty, when muslims started gaining numbers. How did they treat the monirities, in areas where they gained numbers?

    As for Akbar marrying a hundu, that is not forbidden by koran. A man can marry an infidel. It is the woman who can not marry the infidel.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #44 - February 08, 2009, 04:03 PM



    As for Akbar marrying a hundu, that is not forbidden by koran. A man can marry an infidel. It is the woman who can not marry the infidel.



    No, he can only marry from the people of the book, he is not allowed to marry a pagan, hindus are pagans.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #45 - February 08, 2009, 04:27 PM



    As for Akbar marrying a hundu, that is not forbidden by koran. A man can marry an infidel. It is the woman who can not marry the infidel.



    No, he can only marry from the people of the book, he is not allowed to marry a pagan, hindus are pagans.


    Baal, for someone who asserts that they have spent years studying Islam I'm surprised you make such basic errors. It's not the fact you state these things that bothers me , just the arrogant matter-of-fact attitude.

    You remind me of an annoying know-it-all "back seat" driver who has never driven a car themselves but insists on nagging the actual driver with irrelevant titbits from the highway code.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #46 - February 08, 2009, 05:56 PM

    You are being sarcastic, aren't you?  Huh?

    Yes, I was joking, based on the religions general attitudes towards women. 

    I have read the posts here and seen each opposing yet valid points raised here.  It makes the overall message appear confused, probably because the Quran is imperfect as it is so full of contradictions. 

    However we should take all this evidence and compare alongside the other evidence, and then see what the overall message is that it is trying to convey.  We all can see good things that the religion says, a fifth of the world would not take up the religion if it were all bad.  The prophet did many good things, as the hadith show, but also displayed many negative & vicious traits.  This does not automatically turn him into a good person, nor does the fact that many people I care about blindly following him, automotically make him a person deserving of my respect.

    We have to look at what we believe to be the overall message it is trying to convey, not just to pick out phrases here & there and therefore assume the overall message it is trying to convey is saying something different.  Thats what Muslims do, and has kept Islam and other religions going for so long (btw it seems like a good strategy - by contradicting itself everyone can define what they want the religion to mean to them)

    Its the overall message that counts and vaster swathes of the Quran are solely devoted to how to deal with people who belong to other tribes, the inhabitants of a pillaged land, the Jews etc - and lest we forget, not in a method most would deem suitable in any day & age. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #47 - February 08, 2009, 07:27 PM


    You're a smart person, you don't need to resort to plagiarism insha Allah Smiley


    Patronising git.


    Fair enough, though I meant it sincerely. I apologise to Rashna.

    If it's alright I would like to add the following rehashed excerpt from my introduction to this forum. Yes I know my buddy Baal thinks he's refuted most of these but that's his opinion and I have my own.

    Hello Abdalwali,

    "Believing" and "everyone has the privilege of an opinion" is something bad being taught to us by neo-modernism. Stop doing it. Opinion is a right but Truth is the privilege. If the argument I made is valid and correct then it is a truth

    Cheers Smiley,




    Dear Baal. Appreciate your input. You usually make good points and I think I have learned from you. Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #48 - February 08, 2009, 08:54 PM

    I liked your other post better  lipsrsealed  Wink
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #49 - February 08, 2009, 09:47 PM

    I liked your other post better  lipsrsealed  Wink

    Who? Which one?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #50 - February 08, 2009, 09:49 PM

    No one. No where  parrot
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #51 - February 08, 2009, 09:50 PM

    No one. No where  parrot

    Why talk if you're not gonna say anything? Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #52 - February 08, 2009, 09:52 PM

    I said all I had to say  yes
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #53 - February 08, 2009, 11:08 PM

    Quote from: Malcolm X, Letter from Mecca, April 1964
    Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this Ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

    etc.

    El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz
    (Malcolm X)



    If Mr. Shabazz stuck around Saudi a little longer, he'd have been in for another big, cold bucket of water.  Discrimination along ethnic and racial lines is rampant there.  From what I hear, Hajj is the exception. 

    The Prophet may have promoted racial equality (he wasn't necessarily the first to do so in the ancient world, either), his last sermon didn't really stick very well with the people of the Arabian peninsula. 

    Beyond that, yes Islam did unify people - those who chose for whatever reason to follow the religion.  But in the wider picture, it cast lines of divisions across entire populations.  All one need do is look today at places like the Balkans, the Sub-continent, SE Asia to see how it cultivated new fault lines of mistrust and division.


  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #54 - February 08, 2009, 11:14 PM

    Yep, if you dont agree, you can see the wheels in motion by taking a closer look at the by-product of the Quran - Muslims today

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #55 - February 09, 2009, 03:44 AM

    Now a charge of plagiarism against me! :oops:Well I sincerely apologise and no, you don't need to apologise at all abdalwali, I should've mentioned my source. Actually, I've read the Quran and came across those stuff in the Quran before I read Warraq. Ibn Warraq mentions about idolaters in a rather long piece which deals with other issues as well, which is why I didn't give a link but simply copy pasted. Next time I copy paste, I'll surely mention the link.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #56 - February 09, 2009, 07:43 AM


    If Mr. Shabazz stuck around Saudi a little longer, he'd have been in for another big, cold bucket of water.  Discrimination along ethnic and racial lines is rampant there.  From what I hear, Hajj is the exception. 


    =============

    Hajj is no exception;

    when you hear cops yelling and saying phrases like:

    "Hey you, EGYPTIAN, stop..." Which is not nice, I don't want to be yelled @ in this way, don't want an American cop to shout: "Hey, SAUDI man...."

    When you hear that, you never say Hajj is discrimination-free environment.

    Poor Hujjaj are being treated very badly by authorities specially police men. Cops shove them, sometimes beat them....of course most are from poor lands, and Saudis are treated differently..!


    Many friends of mine work @ Hajj, and I've been there too..

    And yes, this ain't only in Hajj...discrimination against immigrants and fellows from poor country is a fact and very noticeable thing..

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #57 - February 09, 2009, 09:12 AM

    It's not the fact you state these things that bothers me , just the arrogant matter-of-fact attitude.

    You remind me of an annoying know-it-all "back seat" driver who has never driven a car themselves but insists on nagging the actual driver with irrelevant titbits from the highway code.



    Thankyou Humanoid!!

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #58 - February 09, 2009, 02:00 PM

    You remind me of an annoying know-it-all "back seat" driver who has never driven a car themselves but insists on nagging the actual driver with irrelevant titbits from the highway code.

    Stop talking about my mum like that!


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #59 - February 10, 2009, 05:38 AM

    Quote from: Malcolm X, Letter from Mecca, April 1964
    Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this Ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

    etc.

    El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz
    (Malcolm X)



    If Mr. Shabazz stuck around Saudi a little longer, he'd have been in for another big, cold bucket of water.  Discrimination along ethnic and racial lines is rampant there.  From what I hear, Hajj is the exception. 

    The Prophet may have promoted racial equality (he wasn't necessarily the first to do so in the ancient world, either), his last sermon didn't really stick very well with the people of the Arabian peninsula. 

    Beyond that, yes Islam did unify people - those who chose for whatever reason to follow the religion.  But in the wider picture, it cast lines of divisions across entire populations.  All one need do is look today at places like the Balkans, the Sub-continent, SE Asia to see how it cultivated new fault lines of mistrust and division.



    This is to Emerald actually, from my understanding, Saudis were nice people 40-50yrs ago (or at least relatively nice). By nice I mean no discrimination, no patronizing, easy-going, the wife of the mufti wore nice neck-showing dresses, etc..

    Egyptians were nice 20-30 yrs ago as well, now they are changing to something much worse.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »