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 Topic: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??

 (Read 17620 times)
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  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #60 - February 10, 2009, 06:34 AM

    This is to Emerald actually, from my understanding, Saudis were nice people 40-50yrs ago (or at least relatively nice). By nice I mean no discrimination, no patronizing, easy-going, the wife of the mufti wore nice neck-showing dresses, etc..

    Egyptians were nice 20-30 yrs ago as well, now they are changing to something much worse.

    ===========

    You hit the nail on the head, here;


    As I hear from older ppl, Saudis were poor (b4 fidning out abt oil),  so they had to be ultra nice with other ppl coming in from overseas, especially those Hujjaj (Pilgrims) to benefit from them;


    My older sis says that some Pilgrims were being robbed and mogged..!

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #61 - February 11, 2009, 01:18 PM

    Actually, awais, as variable has rightly pointed out, the us vs. them component simply never went away, it was merely Muslims vs. non believers now.

    Tongue It unified people. Non-Muslims aren't meant to be treated harsh when they're not fighting Muslims, so as to beautify Islam in there eyes and invite them to submit to Allah, dawa.


    What sort of dawa giving, "beautification" and "unification" technique is this awais? Muslims will charge a special sort of tax, namely jizya on non Muslims, they'd freely proselytize to non Muslims which non Muslims can't, take wife\wives from amongst the protected faiths while non Muslims will have to convert to marry Muslim women, and try to convert idolaters by smashing their idols.

    Would any faith which behaved like this beautify itself in your eyes, or would you be more repelled by it, try to gang up with other faiths which are also opposed to it and defeat it like the Jewish\idolater alliance tried to do in the Prophet's time, or if you are defeated nurse a grievance and try to break free as soon as you are able to like the Ridda wars after the Prophet's death?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #62 - February 11, 2009, 07:16 PM

    www.farsinet.com/cyrus/ Toabdalwali, other people have given Universal Human Rights, including racial and religious rights centuries before Mohammed, like King Cyrus of Iran, gave his subjects equal racial and religious rights, and banned slavery a millennia before Prophet Mohammed's birth. Buddha lived in a pretty race ridden society, where the White skinned Aryans despised the dark skinned Dravidians, and called them lower castes, and he too proclaimed equal rights for all. Of course, he was prepared to give up his life for a lamb, rather than slaughter those who didn't adopt his faith like lambs.For that matter, Jesus too spoke against tribalism in his Parable of the Good Samaritan more than  half a millennia prior to Mohammed, and literate Christians like Waraqa might have known this parable(I'm not accusing Mohammed of learning it from him though). So these stuff had been said and done before,and by people who didn't physically destroy other faiths.

    As for racial discrimination being worse than religious discrimination, according to me what matters isn't whether the condition is alterable, but how painful is the discrimination from those suffering due to it. For a lot of people their faith truly matters, and the idols of their gods\esses are more  precious than life itself. The Zoroastrians who fled to India, the Meccan who fought wars to protect their idols were all devoted to their faith. A lot of Muslims I know identify themselves as Muslims first and by their country later, and the same holds true for many people of other faiths.Changing faith, teaching a new faith to their kids, witnessing destruction of the physical images of their gods is extremely painful for them, and they'd fight for it with their lives, just like they'd fight racial and gender discrimination.

    As to why the Meccans persecuted Mohammed even when he was peaceful at the beginning, the best people to answer that would be the Meccans themselves. From the Meccans own behaviour, we know that they happily tolerated conversion to Christianity, like Waraqa's case shows, and also recognized the Jewish principle of religioous lineage coming from the mother, as you yourself have stated. Why would such people suddenly become intolerant? My hypothesis is that they probably realised the danger this man and his faith posed to their ways of life, and his intention to forcibly interfere with and destroy their faith as soon as he achieved the ability to do so. Before the hejira, Mohammed didn't get enough converts to wage a war for his cause, and military or physical weakness shouldn't be mistaken for genuine peacefulness. Avowed revolutionaries and radicals also bide their time, until they achieve the ability to bring the change they seek.

    In any case, the Meccans' fears proved correct, as Mohammed not only got the rights for his followers to pray at the kaaba, he also destroyed the Meccans cherished idols, calling them falsehoods, and threatened to kill anyone who came out to defend them.The Scandinavian nations for eg are pretty tolerant, you can preach any faith, and convert anyone, but if they suspected that a faith would destroy their ancient Lutheran churches as soon as it got the military capabilities to do so, would they allow it to remain?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #63 - February 11, 2009, 10:07 PM

    This is a really good post.

    The only part i don't agree with is the Meccan's "fears" about Muhammad (peace be upon him). I'm not sure that the Scandinavians would disallow a religion on mere suspsicion. Some hard evidence would be required. I respect em like that Smiley

    But apart from that you've caned it (as usual). Thanks for educating me and proving that amongst the shit-slinging, one can learn something on this board. That makes it worthwhile.

    Abdalwali, you are not supposed to say 'peace upon him' on muhammad. That is only reserved for the sahaba, or is it 'may allah accepts him' that is reserved for sahaba, and 'peace be on him' is for the other prophets other then muhammad?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #64 - February 11, 2009, 11:46 PM

    This is a really good post.

    The only part i don't agree with is the Meccan's "fears" about Muhammad (peace be upon him). I'm not sure that the Scandinavians would disallow a religion on mere suspsicion. Some hard evidence would be required. I respect em like that Smiley

    But apart from that you've caned it (as usual). Thanks for educating me and proving that amongst the shit-slinging, one can learn something on this board. That makes it worthwhile.

    Abdalwali, you are not supposed to say 'peace upon him' on muhammad. That is only reserved for the sahaba, or is it 'may allah accepts him' that is reserved for sahaba, and 'peace be on him' is for the other prophets other then muhammad?



    'Peace be upon' him is the common way of saying the 'salawat' in English. Often you see just this: (pbuh).

    I know that in Arabic "Alayhi Salam" is for other prophets. But in English they commonly say 'Peace be upon him' for Muhammad - though you will also see the longer version of "Peace and blessings be upon him" (it's the other way around in Arabic of course; Salla allahu alayhi wa sallim - but thats the way they usually say it in English.)
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #65 - February 12, 2009, 04:18 AM

    This is a really good post.

    The only part i don't agree with is the Meccan's "fears" about Muhammad (peace be upon him). I'm not sure that the Scandinavians would disallow a religion on mere suspsicion. Some hard evidence would be required. I respect em like that Smiley

    But apart from that you've caned it (as usual). Thanks for educating me and proving that amongst the shit-slinging, one can learn something on this board. That makes it worthwhile.

    Abdalwali, you are not supposed to say 'peace upon him' on muhammad. That is only reserved for the sahaba, or is it 'may allah accepts him' that is reserved for sahaba, and 'peace be on him' is for the other prophets other then muhammad?



    'Peace be upon' him is the common way of saying the 'salawat' in English. Often you see just this: (pbuh).

    I know that in Arabic "Alayhi Salam" is for other prophets. But in English they commonly say 'Peace be upon him' for Muhammad - though you will also see the longer version of "Peace and blessings be upon him" (it's the other way around in Arabic of course; Salla allahu alayhi wa sallim - but thats the way they usually say it in English.)

    In Arabic it is not 'alayhi al salam - peace be upon him', that saying is only reserved for the other prophets AFAIK.

    As for "Peace and Blessings be upon him", that is the common english way but it is not correct. The proper way would be to say: "May Allah prays on him and salutes". This would be more in line with what Muhammad asked his followers to say after his name.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #66 - February 12, 2009, 07:56 AM

    In Arabic it is not 'alayhi al salam - peace be upon him', that saying is only reserved for the other prophets AFAIK.


    That is correct and that is what I said - read it again. "I know that in Arabic "Alayhi Salam" is for other prophets."

    As for "peace be upon him" and "peace and blessings be upon him" as I said, they are the common ways of saying the salawat in English. Whether your more literal translation of "May Allah prays on him and salutes" is better or not is debatable - sometimes literal translations are not always the best.

    But frankly, who cares?
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #67 - February 12, 2009, 08:44 AM

    @ abdalwali, I feel I wasn't explaining myself well with the Scandinavian example, I too feel some hard evidence is needed before banning a faith. All I meant was that, people should be judged on the basis of their past behaviour also. In case of an offender, the question of whether they've commited any offences previously is taken seriously.

    From the Meccans past behaviour, the city doesn't seem to be a hotbed of religious violence, quite the opposite. They allowed conversions out of polytheistic paganism, respected Jewish religious traditions etc. Yet the moment Mohammed came on the scene, a majority of polytheists and idolaters ganged up against him. We do need to ask ourselves why. To give a rather silly analogy, imagine the topper of my class, who always gets 100% in Math, accused of cheating from a rather weak student. I won't claim that its impossible, but I'd certainly say that its  completely out of character and hence improbable, likewise the Meccans' and Jews in Pre Islamic Saudi  to torment a new faith without reason seems improbable.

    As a famous saying goes (I don't know who said it, so don't accuse me of plagiarism)"History is written by the winners" The idolaters and Jews never got the chance to tell their side of the story , yet even Muslim sources demonstrate Meccans as religiously tolerant to all competing beliefs before Islam. While Mohammed was peaceful, we don't know exactly what transpired between Meccans and Mohammed's followers, maybe they threatened to smash all the idols or repeatedly insulted  and demonized the polytheistic faith. Maybe they used the type of language against the idols that  Ali Sina uses against Mohammed, or worse. Why would the Jews and polytheists, who got along well religiously, suddenly be hell bent on destroying a faith, unless they had serious reasons for fearing that it would be a violent threat to their beliefs? Incitement to religious hatred and violence is a recognized crime in many nations, isn't it?

    We do know that as soon as Mohammed acquired the military ability, he destroyed the polytheistic idols, condemned Jews to servitude and even when apostasy wars broke out after his death, all those wanting to leave Islam were ruthlessly persecuted. It doesn't seem the Meccan preaching was very respectful, even if lack of manpower and military abilities compelled Mohammed to be peaceful.

    This was just my opinion, you are of course entitled to yours.

    As for the hate on this site, barring a few Christians who don't realise the hypocrisy of criticising Islam while supporting the violence and misogyny of their texts, we mostly criticise all faiths.Of course as an Ex Muslim forum, the attitude to Islam and Mohammed would be different from what you'd expect at ummah.com. People wouldn't have been ex Muslims in the first place had they agreed with all stuff Islamic.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #68 - February 12, 2009, 01:56 PM

    In Arabic it is not 'alayhi al salam - peace be upon him', that saying is only reserved for the other prophets AFAIK.


    That is correct and that is what I said - read it again. "I know that in Arabic "Alayhi Salam" is for other prophets."

    True

    As for "peace be upon him" and "peace and blessings be upon him" as I said, they are the common ways of saying the salawat in English. Whether your more literal translation of "May Allah prays on him and salutes" is better or not is debatable - sometimes literal translations are not always the best.

    But frankly, who cares?

    Abdalwali seems to care, so i wanted to know his opinion on the matter.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #69 - February 12, 2009, 05:27 PM


    But frankly, who cares?


    Pedantic fuck-tards.

    Awais: Being a mod I must tell you to watch it.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why do muslims take the Qur'an so literally??
     Reply #70 - March 04, 2010, 04:24 PM

    I am from India, awais, and history is a compulsory subject for my grade, you don't have to teach me about Akbar. Well, what about him? He was born in a land of millions of Hindus, which had a tiny ruling Muslim elite, and inspite of many conversions, many by sword and many by choice, the majority population remained Hindu, and despised and disliked Muslim rule. By his time, Muslims had managed to wipe out idolatrous Buddhism from India, but not idolatrous Hinduism.

    Budhism was only limited to few areas of india when muslims arrived.The credit for crushing budhism in india goes to brahminival revivalists.

    Following the Mauryans, Pusyamitra Sunga is linked in legend with the persecution of Buddhists and a resurgence of a form of Hinduism that forced Buddhism outwards to Kashmir, Gandhara and Bactria. There is some doubt as to whether he did or did not persecute Buddhists actively.[4]

    Guptas
    Buddhism saw a brief revival under the Guptas. By the 4th to 5th century Buddhism was already in decline in northern India, even as it was achieving multiple successes in Central Asia and along the Silk Road as far as China. It continued to prosper in Gandhara under the Shahi kingdom.


    [edit] White Huns
    Central Asian and North Western Indian Buddhism weakened in the 6th century following the White Hun invasion, who followed their own religions such as Tengri, Nestorian Christianity, and Manichean. Their King, Mihirakula (who ruled from 515 CE), suppressed Buddhism as well. He did this by destroying monasteries as far away as modern-day Allahabad, before his son reversed the policy.

    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
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