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Theme Changer

 Topic: Very Eloquent Quran

 (Read 5760 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Very Eloquent Quran
     OP - February 05, 2009, 03:11 PM

    016.106
    Quote
    YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

    PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

    SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.



    Now in Arabic this verse is weakly structured, as I see it, as well as in Engl;


    you agree?

    (awais: I fixed the spelling of 'elequent', it irked me  Afro)

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #1 - February 05, 2009, 05:39 PM


    Now in Arabic this verse is weakly structured, as I see it, as well as in Engl;

    you agree?


    LOL! Agree completely, it is weak in English although I can't read Arabic. The Koran is full of such scary and weakly structured verses claiming a simple thing:Believe in Allah or burn in Hell!  Allah has even issued a surah writing challenge in His Koran where He tells people to produce a surah better than the Koran's but then he says you won't be able to and if you fail you burn in Hell!

    I'm sure I could write a better surah than this but what if Allah prefers His badly written Surah to mine? Allah is the judge right? One thing is clear, Allah is no Shakespeare. What a vain God this Allah is, He''ll send you off to Hell if you don't believe every incredible claim in the book He supposedly sent and He's so conceited of His poor surah writing skills when ordinary mortals can produce works of much more literary worth! He issues a challenge to write a better surah only to claim that its impossible, and as judge He'll send you off to Hell as He prefers His surah to yours!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #2 - February 05, 2009, 06:51 PM

    016.106
    Quote
    YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

    PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

    SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.



    Now in Arabic this verse is weakly structured, as I see it, as well as in Engl;


    you agree?


    Yes, I do, very badly structured.



    Whenever I read bits that I thought seemed a bit muddled, I just put it down to my own inadequacies. Now I don't have to be so afraid of calling a spade a spade. When one looks at that verse - in Arabic - one really cannot come to any conclusion other than it is very poor sentence. As a teacher I would have told my pupils to rephrase it.
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #3 - February 06, 2009, 12:12 AM

    Actually the problem is with the translators not with the original arabic text. They are trying to interpret this the best way possible to avoid coming right out and stating that you are allowed to lie.

    The Arabic grammar is not stellar, however the writer of the text needed to be, extremely clear to avoid being misinterpreted by future do-gooders. The writer is writing a legal document. Go read legal documents and you will find plenty of similar convoluted texts.

    Also the Arabic grammar, although not stellar, succeeded very well in obfuscating the fact that the follower of the koran is allowed to lie. The common reader's head will hurt Ten times, before he/she actually understands what this text really means.

    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #4 - February 06, 2009, 10:55 AM


    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.



    I fail to see what is wrong in lying in the particular circumstance that the writer needed to cover his track. These verses don't speak of killing or tormenting unbelievers although there are many such verses in the Quran. All it tells a believer is that he or she is allowed to lie or renounce Islam if there is threat to his life or limb. A person of any faith or no faith would most likely prefer to lie if their lives are threatened. By giving devout believers an assurance that there's nothing wrong in lying to save their skins, the Quran actually gives a pretty humane and practical suggestion.Of course, then it states what  has been said plenty of times in the Quran that anyone who willingly renounces Islam will suffer the torments of Hell.

    So why couldn't the writer state this clearly- A believer is allowed to pretend to disbelieve if his life is threatened, but if he willingly disbelieves after having accepted the faith, he''l burn in Hell. As a non Arabic speaker, I'm relying on the translations, and the Gujarati translation of this verse is just as weak. I just checked.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #5 - February 06, 2009, 11:18 AM

    Actually the problem is with the translators not with the original arabic text. They are trying to interpret this the best way possible to avoid coming right out and stating that you are allowed to lie.

    The Arabic grammar is not stellar, however the writer of the text needed to be, extremely clear to avoid being misinterpreted by future do-gooders. The writer is writing a legal document. Go read legal documents and you will find plenty of similar convoluted texts.

    Also the Arabic grammar, although not stellar, succeeded very well in obfuscating the fact that the follower of the koran is allowed to lie. The common reader's head will hurt Ten times, before he/she actually understands what this text really means.

    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.



    ===========

    Man he/she could have been very clear and in the same time more eloquent;

    Any one fluent in (Fus-ha) Arabic could come up with a well structured verse with the same message and clarity.   

    I really don't see how the writer came up with stellar grammar..

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #6 - February 06, 2009, 05:58 PM


    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.



    I fail to see what is wrong in lying in the particular circumstance that the writer needed to cover his track.

    Take it with the writer of the koran why he needed to obfuscate lying. Also take it with the translators why they tried to obfuscate it in their translations as well.

    IMO It is a clear distinction, between religions that permit lying (mostly tribal religions) and those that exhort truth even if causing death (moslty agrarian religions). Islam always tries to hold both ends of the stick. But its tribal roots seem to always win.

    As to 'this particular circumstance'. What is this 'particular circumstance'? This verse can be used just as offensively as it can be used defensively. The verse states that you can lie 'only if you are made to do something you hate'. But the reality is, when else would we lie?

    *Not lying* is only pertinent, when you *are* forced to lie. Unless someone is a compulsive liar which is an issue not covered under religions or morals.

    These verses don't speak of killing or tormenting unbelievers although there are many such verses in the Quran.

    Strawman. Why are you bringing those verses into your reply to me? And the verse does speak of tormenting unbelievers. It also does not specify  if the torment will be on earth or after death.

    All it tells a believer is that he or she is allowed to lie or renounce Islam if there is threat to his life or limb. A person of any faith or no faith would most likely prefer to lie if their lives are threatened. By giving devout believers an assurance that there's nothing wrong in lying to save their skins, the Quran actually gives a pretty humane and practical suggestion.

    I understand the logic of the verse. It permits lying to further the goals of islam. It can be, and it was, used offensively and defensively. Here is how this verse can be used (or interpreted) as people are very open to multiple interpretations:

    "I need this money because I have Three good muslim kids who need to grow and become good wealthy muslim citizens. So I am going to lie about taking this money from the kaffirs asking me about it, even though I hate lying, but I can not risk going to jail. Think of the Three muslim kids I have at home."

    You either prevent lying. Or you either permit it. The door can not be left in the middle. A half open door is an open door, specially when it comes to human nature.

    Now on the very rare circumstance where life or limb, will be at risk, that person can and will lie regardless of text. Don't worry about him. He will not care if the door to lying is open or closed.

    Of course, then it states what  has been said plenty of times in the Quran that anyone who willingly renounces Islam will suffer the torments of Hell.

    Suffer torments. Hell is not specified.

    So why couldn't the writer state this clearly- A believer is allowed to pretend to disbelieve if his life is threatened, but if he willingly disbelieves after having accepted the faith, he''l burn in Hell. As a non Arabic speaker, I'm relying on the translations, and the Gujarati translation of this verse is just as weak. I just checked.

    The koran always prefers to keep the bad stuff in the exceptions:

    i.e. You are not allowed to inherit a widow *Except* is she was witnessed committing fahisha.

    i.e. You are not allowed to enjoy the proceeds of prostitution *except* if the slaves are willing.

    Keeping the bad stuff in the exceptions, makes the text look to be  'mostly' on the side of good. Even if the exceptions are the norm.

    i.e. You can not lie *except* when you are made to do something you hate.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #7 - February 07, 2009, 10:00 AM




    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.



    I fail to see what is wrong in lying in the particular circumstance that the writer needed to cover his track.


    As to 'this particular circumstance'. What is this 'particular circumstance'? This verse can be used just as offensively as it can be used defensively. The verse states that you can lie 'only if you are made to do something you hate'. But the reality is, when else would we lie?

    These verses don't speak of killing or tormenting unbelievers although there are many such verses in the Quran.

    Strawman. Why are you bringing those verses into your reply to me? And the verse does speak of tormenting unbelievers. It also does not specify  if the torment will be on earth or after death.

    All it tells a believer is that he or she is allowed to lie or renounce Islam if there is threat to his life or limb. A person of any faith or no faith would most likely prefer to lie if their lives are threatened. By giving devout believers an assurance that there's nothing wrong in lying to save their skins, the Quran actually gives a pretty humane and practical suggestion.

    I understand the logic of the verse. It permits lying to further the goals of islam. It can be, and it was, used offensively and defensively. Here is how this verse can be used (or interpreted) as people are very open to multiple interpretations:

    "I need this money because I have Three good muslim kids who need to grow and become good wealthy muslim citizens. So I am going to lie about taking this money from the kaffirs asking me about it, even though I hate lying, but I can not risk going to jail. Think of the Three muslim kids I have at home."

    You either prevent lying. Or you either permit it. The door can not be left in the middle. A half open door is an open door, specially when it comes to human nature.

    Now on the very rare circumstance where life or limb, will be at risk, that person can and will lie regardless of text. Don't worry about him. He will not care if the door to lying is open or closed.

    Of course, then it states what  has been said plenty of times in the Quran that anyone who willingly renounces Islam will suffer the torments of Hell.

    Suffer torments. Hell is not specified.

    So why couldn't the writer state this clearly- A believer is allowed to pretend to disbelieve if his life is threatened, but if he willingly disbelieves after having accepted the faith, he''l burn in Hell. As a non Arabic speaker, I'm relying on the translations, and the Gujarati translation of this verse is just as weak. I just checked.

    The koran always prefers to keep the bad stuff in the exceptions:

    i.e. You are not allowed to inherit a widow *Except* is she was witnessed committing fahisha.

    i.e. You are not allowed to enjoy the proceeds of prostitution *except* if the slaves are willing.

    Keeping the bad stuff in the exceptions, makes the text look to be  'mostly' on the side of good. Even if the exceptions are the norm.

    i.e. You can not lie *except* when you are made to do something you hate.



    Actually Baal, we were thinking of different circumstances. The words in the translations speak of force, compulsion etc, which I was taking as a kind of life threatening situation. Any atheist IMO would've renounced their faith if under threat, and without the slightest guilt. I would've become Muslim in a flash if(say) I were kidnapped by the Taliban.But many religious people, especially the very devout would rather die than renounce  Allah or Christ as Lord. Thats the kind of situation I imagined, but I get what you're trying to say.These verses nowhere say that you're allowed to lie only if there's a risk to your life. These verses can just as easily encourage lying to immigrate to another nation, give people a false opinion about one's real aims etc.

    Nevertheless, any good Muslim will probably interpret these verses to mean that one is allowed to lie only in life threatening circumstances. Of course, the problem is that a Muslim can just as easily practice deception using these verses as his justification.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #8 - February 08, 2009, 07:17 PM

    Rashna, what you are saying is True. I also find the verse to be open enough to be interpreted for a wide range of conditions.

    However. Belief motivates Action. If someone believes that the door to lying is half-open or fully-open, then this person will lie more frequently and with more impunity, worse, he will lie and still be self-righteous about it.

    So either the text which motivates belief which motivates action keeps the door closed, or it does not keep the door closed.

    You bring forward the example of the good muslim, who will assume this verse is only for life threatening situations. However that same good muslim will never receive the message (during his formative years), that lying is just 'wrong'.

    That same good muslim will always have to contend with a belief system in which lying is permissible.

    So when a sheikh is lying his ass off on camera. It is okay. The Sheikh is still accepted by most (90+%) of the muslim world (which are made up of a majority of good people).

    When the Mufti of al-azhar is saying something in English 1 week (denying a death penalty to apostates, and denouncing suicide bombers), and then 1 week later in Arabic he is braising the suicide bombers and sentencing the apostates to death. Yet, his action is perfectly acceptable to his followers.

    Because his flocks, ultimately, were never taught that the door to lying is a closed door.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #9 - February 08, 2009, 07:32 PM

    Actually the problem is with the translators not with the original arabic text. They are trying to interpret this the best way possible to avoid coming right out and stating that you are allowed to lie.

    The Arabic grammar is not stellar, however the writer of the text needed to be, extremely clear to avoid being misinterpreted by future do-gooders. The writer is writing a legal document. Go read legal documents and you will find plenty of similar convoluted texts.

    Also the Arabic grammar, although not stellar, succeeded very well in obfuscating the fact that the follower of the koran is allowed to lie. The common reader's head will hurt Ten times, before he/she actually understands what this text really means.

    So the writer of this text succeeded in coming up with a very solid legal-quality text, that is not open to opposite interpretations. Also the writer of the text managed to cover his track as to not come right out and state that you are allowed to lie.

    In achieving his goals, the writer came up with stellar grammar.



    ===========

    Man he/she could have been very clear and in the same time more eloquent;

    Any one fluent in (Fus-ha) Arabic could come up with a well structured verse with the same message and clarity.   

    I really don't see how the writer came up with stellar grammar..


    This is a reply to Emerald & Rashna:

    But Emerald, the purpose was not clarity. The purpose is obfuscation and to avoid misinterpretation. The purpose is to leave the door half-open. Not even a little-bit-open, but fully, and swinging, half-open. Enough to please the good muslim looking for goodness, and the shrewd muslim looking for a way to get ahead.

    Ultimately, the writer of the koran wanted to build a society that had certain traits, that fit his views for achieving utopia. And his views will often contradict your views. But that does not mean his grammar is not good. He is just  trying to shove his views down the reader's throat, but without being too aggressive and direct about it.

    For example the writer of the koran believes it is good and smart to refuse to allow muslim woman to marry a non-muslim. To us, this is cultural cheating. The non-muslims today, finding out about this 'marriage trick', are turning away and against islam.

    But to the writer, this was like the ultimate 'makr - devious intelligence'.

    And to the writer, devious intelligence is a virtue. And to that end, his grammar is very good.

    Could I write something better? Of course I could. But is the text, actually badly written? not at all.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #10 - February 09, 2009, 03:58 AM


    Now in Arabic this verse is weakly structured, as I see it, as well as in Engl;

    you agree?


    LOL! Agree completely, it is weak in English although I can't read Arabic. The Koran is full of such scary and weakly structured verses claiming a simple thing:Believe in Allah or burn in Hell!  Allah has even issued a surah writing challenge in His Koran where He tells people to produce a surah better than the Koran's but then he says you won't be able to and if you fail you burn in Hell!

    I'm sure I could write a better surah than this but what if Allah prefers His badly written Surah to mine? Allah is the judge right? One thing is clear, Allah is no Shakespeare. What a vain God this Allah is, He''ll send you off to Hell if you don't believe every incredible claim in the book He supposedly sent and He's so conceited of His poor surah writing skills when ordinary mortals can produce works of much more literary worth! He issues a challenge to write a better surah only to claim that its impossible, and as judge He'll send you off to Hell as He prefers His surah to yours!


    Sounds like a toddler-god.  Also a very weak one it if needs people to do its dirty work for it.
  • Re: Very Elequent Quran
     Reply #11 - February 09, 2009, 07:54 AM



    This is a reply to Emerald & Rashna:

    But Emerald, the purpose was not clarity. The purpose is obfuscation and to avoid misinterpretation. The purpose is to leave the door half-open. Not even a little-bit-open, but fully, and swinging, half-open. Enough to please the good muslim looking for goodness, and the shrewd muslim looking for a way to get ahead.

    Ultimately, the writer of the koran wanted to build a society that had certain traits, that fit his views for achieving utopia. And his views will often contradict your views. But that does not mean his grammar is not good. He is just  trying to shove his views down the reader's throat, but without being too aggressive and direct about it.

    For example the writer of the koran believes it is good and smart to refuse to allow muslim woman to marry a non-muslim. To us, this is cultural cheating. The non-muslims today, finding out about this 'marriage trick', are turning away and against islam.

    But to the writer, this was like the ultimate 'makr - devious intelligence'.

    And to the writer, devious intelligence is a virtue. And to that end, his grammar is very good.
    Could I write something better? Of course I could. But is the text, actually badly written? not at all.

    ===========

    Every time you write about the verse and how the writer was grammatically very good I scroll up to Hass' post and read the Arabic text again;

    The grammar might be just Ok, but the way this verse is structured is really messed up, especially when you listen to all those who brag about the Arabic Quran and how beautifully the verses are put up 2gether.


    I was so shocked when I read this verse weeks ago, like I never seen it b4.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #12 - February 09, 2009, 03:29 PM

    Emerald, read any legal text in any language, you will find the exact same type of structure.

    Here is some examples from a Canadian statute:

    "No evidence is admissible of an overt act unless that overt act is set out in the indictment or unless the evidence is otherwise relevant as tending to prove an overt act that is set out therein."

    "Every one who, while in or out of Canada, for the purpose of procuring a passport for himself or any other person or for the purpose of procuring any material alteration or addition to any such passport, makes a written or an oral statement that he knows is false or misleading"

    22.2
    "In respect of an offence that requires the prosecution to prove fault ? other than negligence ? an organization is a party to the offence if, with the intent at least in part to benefit the organization, one of its senior officers "


    Now this verse creates Three category of people:
    1. The One who kafirs after belief,
    2. except the One who is forced to utter disbelieve,
    3. (And but?!?) the one who enjoys kufr in his chest.

    On them (1 & 3), is great torture.

    In Point #3, it states "and but". That is silly, the words 'and' & 'but' are linguistically similar in that, you can always replace the word 'but' with 'and'.

    Good:
    I like apple but i do not like seed.
    I like apple and i do not like seed.

    Silly:
    I like apple and but I do not like seed.

    If it was me, I would rewrite the same verse and replace the words 'and but'. However I am sure some Arabic Sheikh already modified the rules of the Arabic language to make this verse work with an 'and but'.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #13 - February 09, 2009, 04:40 PM

    Altho this is the noble ~eloquent~ Quran, Baal...not a legal Doc.!!

    BTW some legal dox in Arabic are nicely written;


    You well know that:

    (but) = "laken" in Arabic, which is "harf estedrak" or "retractation character."

    Literal translation of the verse:

    "Anyone who after accepting the faith disbelieves in Allah except if he's compelled and his heart is reassured in faith but who pleased (or opened)* with disbelief a chest on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."


    No need for the "laken" phrase here.!..

    We have:

    1. One who disbelieves in Allah with compulsion,

    2. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ without compulsion,

    No need to add something about the one who "pleased (or opened)* with disbelief a chest" cuz he's under the same umbrella (disbelief with no compulsion).


    Anyway, I think your "and-but" thingie above shows also how this wasn't a nicely built verse.


    * to know the different meanings of the Arabic verb: Sharaha, see (in Arabic):

    http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.asp?fileurl=/html/3068425.html

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #14 - February 09, 2009, 08:55 PM

    Emerald, you notice the verse talks about a singular 'he', and only switches to 'they' at the end of the verse?

    Your explanation did not account for that switch yet.


    Anyways, let's first agree on some word for word translation, this should be fun.

    Version 1.0 (Emerald)
    "Anyone who after accepting the faith disbelieves in Allah except if he's compelled and his heart is reassured in faith but who pleased (or opened)* with disbelief a chest on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.""

    Version 1.1 (Baal)
    "Whoever kafired with allah from after his belief, except whoever got compelled and his heart is reassured with faith And But who opened with kufr a chest*, then on them anger from allah and to them a great torture."


    *: Opened wih Kufr a Chest: Pleased his ~heart with Kufr.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #15 - February 09, 2009, 08:58 PM

    Altho this is the noble ~eloquent~ Quran, Baal...not a legal Doc.!!

    BTW some legal dox in Arabic are nicely written;

    The person who wrote the book, was being legalese. He was taking every step to prevent his ideas from being misinterpreted into something he would consider wrong or weak.

    But anyways, let's first come with a word-for-word version.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #16 - February 09, 2009, 11:59 PM

    Altho this is the noble ~eloquent~ Quran, Baal...not a legal Doc.!!

    BTW some legal dox in Arabic are nicely written;

    The person who wrote the book, was being legalese. He was taking every step to prevent his ideas from being misinterpreted into something he would consider wrong or weak.

    But anyways, let's first come with a word-for-word version.

    I'd have to agree with Baal. Even though this is the "noble ~eloquent~ Quran", it is also the guide to life, and it should be clear from error and misinterpretation; even though the variety of sects proves it isn't Roll Eyes Tongue.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #17 - February 10, 2009, 12:22 AM

    Yep, me too..  they were making it clear and including the obvious caveats, otherwise people of the time would have discarded it as flawed and not truely Gods words.

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  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #18 - February 10, 2009, 05:53 AM

    Yep, me too..  they were making it clear and including the obvious caveats, otherwise people of the time would have discarded it as flawed and not truely Gods words.

    I do however acknowledge that many of the caveats were not introduced on purpose (human error). I also demonstrated before that the koranic writer use of conjuntions like  'and', 'or', 'but', then' is very dismal.

    It is as if the legalese of the time when the koran was written was still in its infancy. Or the writer of the koran was not a trained lawyer to begin with.

    '..you can marry them deuce AND thrice AND fours..'
    "..preach to them AND leave their beds AND beat them.."

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #19 - February 10, 2009, 06:12 AM

    Emerald, you notice the verse talks about a singular 'he', and only switches to 'they' at the end of the verse?

    Your explanation did not account for that switch yet.


    Anyways, let's first agree on some word for word translation, this should be fun.

    Version 1.0 (Emerald)
    "Anyone who after accepting the faith disbelieves in Allah except if he's compelled and his heart is reassured in faith but who pleased (or opened)* with disbelief a chest on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.""

    Version 1.1 (Baal)
    "Whoever kafired with allah from after his belief, except whoever got compelled and his heart is reassured with faith And But who opened with kufr a chest*, then on them anger from allah and to them a great torture."


    *: Opened wih Kufr a Chest: Pleased his ~heart with Kufr.


    ============

    I agree also with your trans.

    You know that "and" & "but" can be used together in Arabic,

    It looks so awkward tho in Engl...(and but).


    I noticed the switch to plural, I think they meant anger and torture on :

    Ones who disbelieves in Allah without compulsion
    +
    Ones who disbelieves with a happy chest..!


    I stated that:

    Quote
    No need to add something about the one who "pleased (or opened)* with disbelief a chest" cuz he's under the same umbrella (disbelief with no compulsion).


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #20 - February 10, 2009, 06:17 AM

    Altho this is the noble ~eloquent~ Quran, Baal...not a legal Doc.!!

    BTW some legal dox in Arabic are nicely written;

    The person who wrote the book, was being legalese. He was taking every step to prevent his ideas from being misinterpreted into something he would consider wrong or weak.

    But anyways, let's first come with a word-for-word version.

    =============

    "Legalese"

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=45426&dict=CALD


    Thus, this person who wrote the Quran also refutes Muslims claim that Quran is an "eloquence wondrous"  or ?E?ejaz Balaghi;?
     
    which is my point.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #21 - February 10, 2009, 06:52 AM

    "and" & "but" can be used in arabic, but in the context of this verse, it is a logical mistake.

    However we can be assured that the rules of arabic were modified to accomodate this verse.

    As for the koran being an ijaz balaghi - linguistic wonder, there is no reason why the koran did not achieve its 'ijaz' status through legalese.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #22 - February 10, 2009, 07:06 AM

    "and" & "but" can be used in arabic, but in the context of this verse, it is a logical mistake.

    However we can be assured that the rules of arabic were modified to accomodate this verse.

    As for the koran being an ijaz balaghi - linguistic wonder, there is no reason why the koran did not achieve its 'ijaz' status through legalese.



    ==============

    Is "linguistic" the best word here? I thought it's: "laghawi" not "balaghi", the latter is a bit different,

    Maybe 'Rhetorical' is closer to the Arabic "balaghi."

    dunno.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #23 - February 10, 2009, 02:19 PM

    True.

    Ijaz: is on the same level as 'Mu'jiza - Miracle'
    Balaghi: Word for word it could be an adverb meaning 'message delivery'.

    Word for word it could mean: Wondrous Message Delivery or Miraculous Message Delivery.

    At the time, possibly some of the writers introduced Zorastrian, Sassanid & Jewish writing style into Arabic. They came up with something that would impress common people. However for a semi-trained eye in reading law, the mistakes should not have been made even by a student of law.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #24 - June 04, 2013, 04:55 AM

    Assalam O Alaikum,

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  • Very Eloquent Quran
     Reply #25 - June 04, 2013, 06:27 AM

    Lol, are you for real AliBaba?

    Waslaam.

    Hi
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