My point was that we shouldn't argue with muslims at all. it never helps... not once. period. no matter how you start it or how you approach it... it won't work.
Baal: I actually made friends with muslims online, got them on msn chat and persuaded them with a one on one discussion where i reflected on what made it difficult for *me* to believe in islam... instead of what was wrong with islam itself.
You mentioned replication - are you in to memetics? I once wrote a paper when I was with the towelians, using memetics to explain how to de-program muslims... and at that time my conclusion was still the same (it was years ago): that any sort of confrontation (no matter how polite or subtle) does not work... you have get under their guard.
using this method, i was able to convert about 4-5 muslims, none of whom have reverted back and probably never will, even if they undergo deep emotional trauma - and i know this because now they interpret the world through the meme of science and atheism - they are introspective and self-analytical enough to not let their psychology affect them anymore, thereby effectively cutting them off from the religious memes...
Argumentation with Muslims is a waste of time, albeit cathartic for the "new apostates" who are exploding with new-found intellectual and emotional freedom. perhaps some of them are even rebelling against earlier persecution...
but it's counter-productive to their stated goal of converting them away from islam.
Personally I don't think conversion should be a goal at all. We should instead try to create a social environment where ex-Muslims are a visible group, so that skeptical Muslims are not socially pressured in to adhering to Islam. They will be able to approach us... and if not that, then at least they won't feel it's taboo to criticize the religion.
Our mere visibility (and acceptance by the Muslim ummah - the difficult part) can bring this about. Imagine a world where millions of Muslims question their faith because it's socially acceptable to do so... THAT may just set off an intellectual revolution amongst the masses.
It sounds unbelievable and idealistic... but many years ago I said that Muslims from around the world will start apostatizing and they will become a lot more visible to everyone. it will be a trend. and i was right: when i was with the Towelians, i saw ex-Muslims from Maldives, saudi arabia, pakistan, india, some countries in africa, canada, usa, uk, france, australia... and many more.
ex-muslim blogs are numerous now. we're everywhere... and i estimate our numbers are in the millions if you count the "apathetic apostate" (the kind who don't declare it nor do they even think about atheism... but just live their lives... and don't really care about faith or allah either).
Acceptance by the Muslim world is doable: here's how: i've met many educated muslims who are uncomfortable with killing apostates... or even stating that's "right"... and there is a cadre of "progressive" muslims out there like ali eteraz, irshad manji, reza aslan, etc... and though their ideological perspective on islam may not be infectious to the muslim ummah, what matters is their CELEBRITY.
That is, these people can be in islamic magazines, islamic tv, newspapers, conferences etc... they get the spotlight. they're the liberal icons... and just by being celebrities, they are in the muslim psyche; if these folks befriend us, if these folks argue that for the muslim world to really become "tolerant", it needs to accept peaceful dissent... well... that will be a START.
This will at least put the matter of our existence in the public discourse of the Muslim ummah... and that sort of discourse will rope in a LOT of skeptical Muslims who will side with the "don't kill apostates" argument.
the beauty of this is that the more muslims who argue against these skeptics for killing apostates, the more it will push the skeptics away from islam... why? because in their hearts they already have DOUBT... and to deny apostates their life, will be subconsciously felt as an attempt to kill their skepticism instead of satisfying it. That can be very emotionally threatening for humans...
and that will push them away from islam...
furthermore what it means for us is that there will be more apostates (which isn't either a good or a bad thing actually.. heh) but more importantly, it will become the basis for setting up other discussions related to "what's wrong with the muslim world", "what else do we need to change" etc..
CHANGE will become the over arching topic. and that... is a great thing, considering how stagnant and frozen islam's image has been constructed to be (it wasn't in the past...)
you want to bring about a huge change in the islamic world, then this is the most practical way of doing it.
There are a couple of problems with this "method" of course. these are:
1- most muslims live in rural areas, often without fresh water supply, scarce food etc, let alone tv, newspapers and magazines. reaching them is almost impossible with this method.
2- The so-called "guardians of islam" (the wahhabi, salafi and other powerful groups who have placed their own in islamic institutions everywhere - especially in saudi arabia's islamic council) are backed up by hundreds of publishers and tons of money. They'll put out fatwas against such discourse... but that's only a part of it. they have an intelligentsia that prints books, islamic journals and other publications that will justify the stifling of such discussions. This will be taught to thousands of hardcore muslims across the world, through islamic websites and online classes such as those offered by farhat hashmi etc. in other words, they will bite back... and don't underestimate them.
We apostates tend to think muslims are generally disorganized and stupid, but they're not. They've had 1400 years to develop an intense network of power structures. It is more decentralized than a government, more than the vatican, etc... which makes it almost invisible to us. but it's there: the majlis of the islamic scholars in saudi arabia are the "trend setters" who establish norms and sharia-laws, that are then copied by those in Pakistan, india, egypt, etc.
They even have an islamic university - al-azhar, in Egypt that produces this intelligentsia. these guys publish thousands of books (just walk in to any islamic store and see for yourself the kind of tripe they put out... it's usually NEVER moderate, it's the extreme vitriolic stuff!) and this network hence has a lot of influence.
They have the power to influence governments - after all, if you're a powerful mullah, asking the government to ban a book or a person is peanuts - it costs the government nothing.
3- Apostates will create problems: rejecting liberal muslims as "ideologically weak" or arguing that they are on theologically un-sound footing, will not help. A rejection of liberals will mean a rejection of apostates by liberals. we will remain then, shunned by every one in the muslim world.. and the muslim world will hence remain a CLOSED CIRCUIT to us. We won't be able to bring change then...
4- Liberal muslims may shun us any way for fear of being ostracized themselves from those they hold dear: their families and friends... or in the case of irshad manji: for fear of losing her money making business because she depends on muslims NOT ostracizing her and her books/documentaries. (i know this because i approached her with this idea... heh.)
i'm sorry this is a long post... but here's the conclusion:
overall i think it's still doable if we play our cards right. we need to have the right approach... it can happen... it's possible.
now... if only i could make a living off this, i'd be rich and wouldn't feel like i'm wasting time.
Topic: Rational discourse is not as useful as you think