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Theme Changer

 Topic: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.

 (Read 24102 times)
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  • Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     OP - February 15, 2009, 09:33 AM

    Again, since the old one ain't in the archive..  parrot
    =============



    I was born in 1980, to 4 sisters and 3 brothers and have lived my whole life in Saudi Arabia (minus roughly 4 years). When I first started to discover the surroundings, I was about 4 years old. My family was a very normal Saudi family. Siblings and parents were totally moderate in their Islamic views and practicing.

    When I was 4, I used to pretend that I pray. The funny part was me wearing the scarf and body cover while praying. I did so because I had spent most of my time with my sisters who as you know, being females, have to wear these things when they pray. Of course at the time, I thought everybody had to.

    I enjoyed praying, because my family loved it. Although I didn't know what to say, I was just mimicking them, doing those moves and saying nothing. I was so happy to get praise by my family. My elementary school came to foster my 'young fresh' thoughts of Islam. In Saudi, it is mandatory to study a great deal of Islamic courses starting from the 1st grade up until undergraduate.

    The number of Islamic courses comprises more than half of the curricula. The 1st few years were mere and pure dictation. Students face questions like:

    1. Who is your God?
    2. What is your religion?
    3. Who is your prophet?
     
    These were answered questions. Every student had to reply, Allah, Islam, and Muhammad, respectively. That's a reason why Saudis are so devout Muslims. Families also play a key role in consolidating the principles and pillars of Islam starting from kindergarten. By the age of 8 (3rd grade) I was somehow forced to pray by my family. This was kind of odd to me, my daddy at the time never prayed not even once, neither did my brothers. It was only the 'female' part of the family. When my mammy started to bother me and oblige me to pray, I just hated it. Lots of moves, 5 times a day, and more importantly, (ablution 'Wudu')... As a kid, just like cats, I just didn't like the idea of getting exposed to water (sometimes cold) and not being able to play soccer or play a video game instead of praying. However, the notion of Islam and its prophet was just like an 'absolute truth' to me.

    A year later, I found my self lonely..3 sisters got married and moved to another city..2 brothers went outta town to continue their schooling. Me, daddy (who loves to stay at his room 24/7), a brother (who spends most of his time outta home), a sister (stays at her bedroom) were occupying the house. My mother was my mate at home. Unfortunately, this gave her more opportunity to force me to pray. Prayer is the major thing in Islam, even when a family is a bit liberal or moderate.

    To exacerbate things, my mother became VERY devout in 1989, less than a year later, my dad followed in her footsteps. The burden was unbearable. Both of them tried all ways to force me to pray, yet honestly, they never exaggerated (never hit.or something like that). With my deep belief in Islam, and the pressure of my parents, I chose to become religious my self when I was 10. I used to wear short thobs (as this is considered sunna) and a shemagh (ghutra), I also joined a Quranic studies in the mosque where I memorized a whole chapter (like saying a whole book from the NT) and of course I had prayed almost all prayers at mosque. I didn't really enjoy it, it was just my parents' contentment that led me to continue and work hard. I was religious, in a strange way though. After the leaving of my siblings, I got in love with music, so even though I was religious (in Arabic: Mutawwa or Multazim), I couldn't end my love toward music (which is forbidden 'haram' in Islam according to the vast majority of scholars).

    The only thing that disturbed me at the time (between 1990 and 1992) was my sister. I had feelings, that she wasn't religious enough, but what annoyed me more was her way in viewing things. She was more of 'liberal if you will' surely I couldn't face her with anything for she's way older than me..so it wasn't so proper to argue.

    When I was 12, I started to get back to my (me), that is, I became less religious; as a matter of fact, I lost a lot of my dedication to memorizing Quran and praying. I remember chuckling/giggling while praying everyday at school with my schoolmates..just for nothing. (Praying the Dhuhr prayer 'noon prayer' is obligatory in schools, and this is the only prayer to be performed at school, students finish the school day before the Asr prayer).

    Reading through the history books (school books) that were 90% about Islam, I was like (whatever) Muhammad is the man 'he's the prophet.' Most of the stories and incidents were presented to show good/positive sides of Islam, while this comprises very little of the true history books which show different versions. Every raid/battle was justified in a way or another, especially by claiming that Muhammad and Muslims were the victims of betrayals and deceits. I believed the prophet was the merciful, the kind and humane man.

    I was somewhere in the middle, between devout/extreme/fundamentalist Muslims and liberal/nominal/secular Muslims, although I was shifted a bit toward the latter. This had augmented in the next few years due to my continuous attempts to understand people, life, truth, and love.I felt that leftists were more humane than conservatives in S.A. The latter call to hate the west, invade the west one day when we get the power..they know nothing in life but Muslims, as if the rest were objects and not human beings, unlike those liberal Muslims, who understand Islam differently. In addition to that, I started to quietly observe my sister and the way she thinks, behaves, and even talks.

    In 1994 we moved to another city in the west coast (where we originally belong). My high school years were normal, except for the following:

    - I became more liberal, maybe because the new city is less conservative than the city where I grew up in.
    - Parents kept preaching about prayers..During most of my high school days, my dad used to do something a little bit weird,

    He had this habit of forcing me to pray only the Fajr prayer (early morning prayer) in mosque! This was torture to me. Imagine that you go to bed @ 23:30 - 1:00 (Arabs are night ppl) and get up at 4:30 - 5:30 while your school starts at 7:00 - 7:30..!!

    My prayers at school and the Fajr prayers were 90% without ablution.

    Other than that, my life was so normal, typical life for a boy in his teen. Music, school, soccer, cars, etc..!

    The new phase of exploring life which led me to accept the liberal Islam led me also to focus on the women's issues especially in S.A. I became a moderate advocate of women, for I viewed them as victims of people's misunderstanding of Islam and their application of old fashioned traditions. The whole liberal/feminist thing wasn't at all organized (ie, I didn't rely on books, scholars, readings, writing) it was just like a general inner perception.

    The word 'secularism' was unfairly trashed in some curricula in high school. In a nutshell, it was related to the phobia of 'conspiracy theory' (that is, the west wanting to destroy us). I was like, fine, I'm not secular. I'm (ME).

    It wasn't until 1999 that I grasped the nature of secularism. When I was talking with my friend about another buddy, the way he thinks, behaves..etc. My friend said something that still rings in my ears to date:

    ((..Yes, but you know what, Ahmed is Elmani !!..)) Elmani = secular.

    I was like OMG, that's a chance to know a new thing, because due to restrictions set by the Ministry of Media and Culture, all books that theorize for liberalism, secularism, or any other faith/philosophy are banned..(except for those that criticize them).

    Ahmed has been my friend since the High school (ie since 1995). I tried to smartly approach him and get to know how he thinks. Ironically, after talking to him and discussing, this 'secularism' thing seemed so suitable to me. It literally reflected my thoughts and ideas. By the way, 'Elmaneyya' (secularism in Arabic) doesn't necessarily mean 'Atheism' or 'Deism.' It is basically, being a liberal Muslim who applies logic and critical reasoning. It turned out that Ahmed is also a 'Feminist.' We both enjoyed talking to each other, and discussing many issues 'Women's rights and religion were the main topics. At the time, Ahmed had read way more books than I did; that is why I treasured being with him. He, on the other hand, enjoyed talking to me for I was among those few folks who understand, tolerate, and accept almost all of his thoughts.

    Before this, something weird also happened. I had this interesting debate/discussion with one of my friends' uncle. In the discussion, I sort of represented the liberal side, while the uncle did the conservative. A few days later, I was talking to my friend about the discussion when he said: 'by the way, my uncle believes you have some secular views.' I was like, errrrmmm interesting. Yet, I didn't know whether to consider this a compliment or a criticism. Ultimately, I didn't bother to think a lot about it.

    My views on Islam between 1999 and 2003 were almost the same. I cared only about fasting, for this wasn't a real burden (in my opinion), but even in this, I wasn't good. During some Ramadans, I missed some days just for the sake of ((some candies, or snacks, eating them secretly of course..)) My knowledge had expanded greatly, especially in issues related to Islamic secularism (or secular Islam if you will). I had read to a lot of secularists and authors, most of them were liberal Muslims. During 2003, many of my close buddies became 'Sufis.' Sufism has been a target of criticism in the Saudi religious curricula, along with other sects (Shiite, Mutazelate, etc). Being a secular, I was so excited to know more about Sufism. For one thing, it was a great opportunity to learn something new from its source (not from some unfair, biased Islamic books), and for another, I felt and still feel so sympathetic to those persecuted groups in my land. I had attended several 'Sufi' meetings (sometimes known as Dhikr') after being invited by my Sufi friends. Meetings were centered on Muhammad and his relatives (household) - called in Arabic: 'Aal al-beit' or Ahl Albayt - sharing stories about them and also, singing some religious anthems; this is very close to a Christian Sunday worship, except that most of the time they don't use instruments.

    I never considered myself a 100% Sufi. I just joined some Sufi fellows to explore and learn. Up until 2003, I was self-regarded 'Muslim.' Rarely did I pray, fast, or do any major duty. Except for praying occasionally with my Sufi friends in their meetings, and fasting for a few days of Ramadan, literally I had not done anything related to Islam or its rituals during this period of time. My 'Sufi' prayers were mere 'courtesy' actions (in Arabic it is called 'Mujamala'). On the other hand, I had this great admiration toward Muhammad. This had increased because of my relationship with Sufis and my visits to them. Sufis hold an extreme respect and fondness for Muhammad. I know all Sunni do or claim, but those Sufis are more passionate. Not only do they adore Muhammad, but even his household. I place Sufis somewhere between Sunna and Shiite. Most of the stories told by them were about Muhammad's life; they stressed on his wisdom, kindness, fairness, and all other good attributes exist! I was like: the world and most of Muslims do not understand the real Islam and the true Muhammad. I felt that these Muslims never represented Islam in its origin, and Sufis did. To date, I view Sufism as the least 'ugly' version of Islam. Ultimately, my secular side outweighed.

    In 2004, my excitement to attend the meetings lessened for this was my final year in college, and also because meetings were mostly in Mecca (about 40 miles away). It was not until early 2005 that I had a chance to be clear-minded and fair enough to weigh things up and reach a decision. When I was talking to Ahmed, and discussed how those Muslims didn't understand Islam, how they were backward in their reasoning, and how they were intolerant. I was like: oh, if they just follow the example of the Prophet, just seconds before Ahmed replied and came up with a shock:
    'I agree, but remember that the prophet ordered to kill several hundreds Jews in Medina.' I kept quite for a second, and said: oh, this ain't true. Ahmed confirmed his claim, and asked me to double check. When I did, I found out that this story is all over the history books of Islam. Worse than that, it is agreed-upon by almost all scholars, and even mentioned in authentic Hadiths. This was the straw that broke the camel's back. I continued to research and found more horrible stuff. My problem (and many others') was researching! I just did not apply any minimum quick research before this incident. It could have been the shortest path for me to leave Islam. Once, I stood in front of the mirror and said: Dude, just face it, you have your own beliefs, and this thing contradicts almost all of your principles.

    2005 was an amazing year. For the 1st time in years I felt much of satisfaction and inner peace. A year later, I flew to the US to continue my studies. In this year, I decided to write a book about 'Why I left Islam.'  In the US, I had the opportunity to meet many Christians, and for the 1st time I got a real chance to talk and ask about Christianity and get answers from its followers. As a matter of fact, I have been studying Christianity ever since. I regard myself as an 'Agnostic,' an empirical one, that is, I can't tell that God exists or not due to lack of evidence.

    Now, and after about 3 years of leaving Islam, I feel so content. My love to everyone has tremendously grown. I do think though that the problem is in Islam itself not Muslims. I love Muslims; my best friend is a Muslim, the most invaluable human in my life (my sister) is a Muslim.

    I feel so sorry and frustrated when I learn that someone converted to Islam, especially those westerners, who do not know much about Islam; who just get the good part of the faith before they embrace it. I feel the same toward Muslims who don't read their history and books; many of them feel that they are confined in a cage. They only need a little push so that they get freed.

    There is a difference between a liberal Muslim and a former one. Based on my experience, when I was liberal, I used to try to question the credibility and depth of every Hadith or verse that call for something illogical. I had done so, believing that any irrational thing could never be related to Islam. I had justified every matter, or let me say, tried to justify. It was a killing feeling when a person comes to me with a verse or Hadith emphasizing 'killing the apostate,' 'forbidding music,' or anything that degrades women (or any other thing that contradict my logic). I had tried to twist the meanings of such text. (Quranists movement is a natural result of this type of logic conflicts).

    An apostate, in contrast, stands in a neutral position, where he/she reads and analyzes objectively. It is also important to mention that a liberal Muslim in Saudi (according to my observation) has mainly two possible future scenarios:

    He/she either:

    Eventually becomes devout and religious, or

    Uses his/her brain and denounce the faith.







    Peace and Love.



    P.S.: Sep/08 returned to S.A. grin12
       

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #1 - February 15, 2009, 10:52 AM

    your story sound like the story of many people in saudi and the muslim world... in the end its just peer pressure, you have to conform to be part of the group... I know many kids who go through with a lot of "being a devout muslim" because they see the admiration in the eyes of people around him... "our little brother memorizes 10 chapters of the quran" or "our little daughter is so devout she covers herself completely"

    some see the light in the end... and some don't... while some do and keep on going because somehow they just can't get out of it, because "what would people say"... and some... keep going because it makes them a lot of $$$
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #2 - February 15, 2009, 11:30 AM

    Inciteful post  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #3 - February 15, 2009, 11:50 AM

    Now, and after about 3 years of leaving Islam, I feel so content. My love to everyone has tremendously grown.


    First of all, that was a fantastic read, Emerald thank you!  Afro

    The quote above really rang a bell that I have almost forgotten now. When I finally rejected Islam consciously I felt like a barrier had fallen down. The barrier between me and all the good and decent people in the world - regardless of faith or lack of it. I suddenly no-longer saw them as being in some way separate or different but exactly the same as me. All humanity suddenly became one and were no longer split into Muslims and non-Muslims.

    I do think though that the problem is in Islam itself not Muslims. I love Muslims; my best friend is a Muslim, the most invaluable human in my life (my sister) is a Muslim.


    So true, Emerald  Afro I can only feel love and huge empathy for ordinary Muslims.

    I have never been able to understand why any ex-muslim would suddenly start hating Muslims?

    I feel the same toward Muslims who don't read their history and books; many of them feel that they are confined in a cage. They only need a little push so that they get freed.


    So true. But they are too afraid. It's too scary and too painful. What they need is a gentle hand - not being insulted and hit over the head.


    There is a difference between a liberal Muslim and a former one.


    Definitely! There is a huge difference. Though I have nothing against liberal Muslims and I know many - they still can't see outside the box - they can only re-arrange it's contents.

    Great story Emerald  Afro
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #4 - February 15, 2009, 12:02 PM

    Great story Emerald! I hadn't read it before so thanks for posting it. My grandfather used to lose no opportunity to proselytize to me and I think one of the best things which happened to me was reading the Holy books of Christianity, Islam and Zoroastrianism, although Ive not joined a faith, I have good reasons for my unbelief. I too feel sorry for people who fall into the trap of dishonest evangelizers and dawa, who conveniently leave out the bad bits.

    Makes me think religious people don't really believe what they claim to believe, coz if they did think the whole stuff is from God or Allah, they'd reveal all God's words right?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #5 - February 16, 2009, 07:04 AM

    Thx everyone.  Afro

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #6 - February 16, 2009, 07:07 AM

    Emerald,
    keep safe. You are in KSA right now, right?
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #7 - February 16, 2009, 07:09 AM

    Now, and after about 3 years of leaving Islam, I feel so content. My love to everyone has tremendously grown.


    First of all, that was a fantastic read, Emerald thank you!  Afro

    The quote above really rang a bell that I have almost forgotten now. When I finally rejected Islam consciously I felt like a barrier had fallen down. The barrier between me and all the good and decent people in the world - regardless of faith or lack of it. I suddenly no-longer saw them as being in some way separate or different but exactly the same as me. All humanity suddenly became one and were no longer split into Muslims and non-Muslims.


    thx Hassan, yeah, I well remember that when I 1st posted this months ago.  Afro

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #8 - February 16, 2009, 07:17 AM

    Makes me think religious people don't really believe what they claim to believe, coz if they did think the whole stuff is from God or Allah, they'd reveal all God's words right?

    ==========

    That's relative,

    met some Muslims who really don't care showing the bad stuff, for they blindly believe.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #9 - February 16, 2009, 07:18 AM

    Emerald,
    keep safe. You are in KSA right now, right?

    =========

    Thx Calm;

    I am in KSA, right.  Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #10 - February 16, 2009, 10:50 AM

    Great story Emerald. It was mind blowing for me when I started finding out about the more inhumane side of Islam, it pretty much sealed my apostasy to Islam.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #11 - February 16, 2009, 03:06 PM

    Great story Emerald.

    =========

    Thx,

     
    It was mind blowing for me when I started finding out about the more inhumane side of Islam, it pretty much sealed my apostasy to Islam.


     yes

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #12 - February 16, 2009, 04:26 PM

    Uses his/her brain and denounce the faith.


    Great story Emerald.

    What are the consequences now in KSA if it was known you denounced Islam and became an apostate?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #13 - February 16, 2009, 04:32 PM

    ... also are there any high profile apostates in your country?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #14 - February 18, 2009, 01:25 PM

    Uses his/her brain and denounce the faith.


    Great story Emerald.

    What are the consequences now in KSA if it was known you denounced Islam and became an apostate?

    ==============

    I'd be given a 3-day chance to repent and declare my Islam again, otherwise they'd behead me;



    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #15 - February 18, 2009, 01:27 PM

    ... also are there any high profile apostates in your country?

    =============

    Not really, even when they find out about some apostates, they always hide it from the public's eyes;

    I feel that many liberal authors ,here in KSA, are apostates but they hide under the umbrella of secularized Islam.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • I dont understand !!
     Reply #16 - February 19, 2009, 08:20 AM

    In your first few paragraphs you mentioned that you enjoyed praying cos your family loved it...and then you also said that your father never prayed not even once neither did your brothers.....isn't that a contradiction ? Besides who said Fajr prayer is without ablution (wudu) ? i havnt read your whole story but i seem not satisfied with what you said at all.
  • Re: I dont understand !!
     Reply #17 - February 19, 2009, 08:35 AM

    In your first few paragraphs you mentioned that you enjoyed praying cos your family loved it...and then you also said that your father never prayed not even once neither did your brothers.....isn't that a contradiction ? Besides who said Fajr prayer is without ablution (wudu) ? i havnt read your whole story but i seem not satisfied with what you said at all.

    If you continue reading it was with his mother and sisters to whom he was referring. Tongue He said he performed fajr without wudu, not that fajr didn't require it. Tongue Read more carefully.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #18 - February 19, 2009, 08:36 AM

    Hi Welcome  Smiley

    May if you read full thing, you will be satisafied.

    Emerald said My prayers at school and the Fajr prayers were 90% without ablution. He does not say Fajr prayer is without wudu.
    He enjoyed praying at 4 because his family loved it when he prayed being that young mimicking elders.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #19 - February 19, 2009, 08:36 AM

    awais, as always great minds think alike.  cool2
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #20 - February 19, 2009, 09:29 AM

    Uses his/her brain and denounce the faith.


    Great story Emerald.

    What are the consequences now in KSA if it was known you denounced Islam and became an apostate?

    ==============

    I'd be given a 3-day chance to repent and declare my Islam again, otherwise they'd behead me;

    Do they still carry out death penalties for apostasy there? I've been told they stopped it. Has anyone faced the penalty any time recently for apostasy?
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #21 - February 19, 2009, 12:26 PM

    Do they still carry out death penalties for apostasy there? I've been told they stopped it. Has anyone faced the penalty any time recently for apostasy?

    Wouldn't that be in violation of UN Human Rights?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #22 - February 19, 2009, 12:32 PM

    Do they still carry out death penalties for apostasy there? I've been told they stopped it. Has anyone faced the penalty any time recently for apostasy?

    Wouldn't that be in violation of UN Human Rights?

    Yep, I was told they stopped using the death penalty because of foreign pressures. However I keep reading stories about muslims not coming out for fear of being put to death.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #23 - February 19, 2009, 12:35 PM

    So are we saying UN Human Rights contravenes Islam (in terms of putting to death of apostates), and hence it is illegal for any state to carry it out? 

    Anyone know who was the last person to be put to death, and in which country, for apostacy?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #24 - February 19, 2009, 12:58 PM

    So are we saying UN Human Rights contravenes Islam (in terms of putting to death of apostates), and hence it is illegal for any state to carry it out? 

    Anyone know who was the last person to be put to death, and in which country, for apostacy?

    The UN Human Rights contravenes Islam quite a few times (women, slavery, etc).

    I don't know the last person put to death. I can't find any recent articles hence why I thought they abolished the death penalty.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #25 - February 19, 2009, 01:06 PM

    So are we saying UN Human Rights contravenes Islam (in terms of putting to death of apostates), and hence it is illegal for any state to carry it out? 

    Anyone know who was the last person to be put to death, and in which country, for apostacy?

    The UN Human Rights contravenes Islam quite a few times (women, slavery, etc).

    I don't know the last person put to death. I can't find any recent articles hence why I thought they abolished the death penalty.


    In Islam we have our own, the

    'Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights'

    This is a declaration for mankind, a guidance and instruction to those who fear God.
       (Al Qur'an, Al-Imran 3:138)

    http://www.alhewar.com/ISLAMDECL.html


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #26 - February 19, 2009, 01:14 PM

    So are we saying UN Human Rights contravenes Islam (in terms of putting to death of apostates), and hence it is illegal for any state to carry it out? 

    Anyone know who was the last person to be put to death, and in which country, for apostacy?

    The UN Human Rights contravenes Islam quite a few times (women, slavery, etc).

    I don't know the last person put to death. I can't find any recent articles hence why I thought they abolished the death penalty.


    In Islam we have our own, the

    'Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights'

    This is a declaration for mankind, a guidance and instruction to those who fear God.
       (Al Qur'an, Al-Imran 3:138)

    http://www.alhewar.com/ISLAMDECL.html



    That doesn't sound like the Islam I know :S More like the ideological version of Islam most followers believe in.
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #27 - February 19, 2009, 01:22 PM

    In Iran the last person to be put to death for apostacy was in 1990 (as per article below). Wonder what happened to this bill - The UN really has no power and it annoys me that the world just sits back & watches




    Iran to Bring Back Death Sentence for Apostasy
    October 12, 2008 by Lee Hancock   

     
    Iran is poised to re-introduce the death penalty for apostasy, the crime of the rejection of Islam by word or deed by someone who has been a Muslim. According to sharia Law, all Muslim men who change their religion must suffer execution.

    Last month the Iranian parliament voted by 196 votes to 7 in favour of a draft bill called the Islamic Penal Code which would officially codify the death penalty for Iranian men who have left the Islamic faith. Female apostates would be given life imprisonment.

    The new law requires another vote in the Iranian parliament and then the signature of the Ayatollah to become law. But given the overwhelming vote in favour of the draft bill and the promotion of the bill by Iranian clerics, it is thought that the law could come into force in a matter of weeks.

    The last person to be executed for apostasy in Iran was Hossein Soodman who was hanged in 1990.

    The right to freedom of religion is one of the most basic human rights in the modern era, written in stone in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and in the European Convention of Human Rights.

    Yet the response to the sinister developments in Iran from the ?International Community? has been decidedly muted. The normally vocal United Nations have made no pronouncement on the situation. Neither has the European Union, and in fact Iran?s largest foreign trading partner, Germany, has just increased its business deals with Iran by more than half.

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  • Re: I dont understand !!
     Reply #28 - February 19, 2009, 02:01 PM

    In your first few paragraphs you mentioned that you enjoyed praying cos your family loved it...and then you also said that your father never prayed not even once neither did your brothers.....isn't that a contradiction ? Besides who said Fajr prayer is without ablution (wudu) ? i havnt read your whole story but i seem not satisfied with what you said at all.

    ============

    Kindly read the story carefully;


    Yes, father and brothers never prayed, but they were still happy about that.

    True, who said Fajr prayer is without wudu?

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Saudi ~ Wahhabi ~ Sufi = My Story.
     Reply #29 - February 19, 2009, 02:03 PM

    Uses his/her brain and denounce the faith.


    Great story Emerald.

    What are the consequences now in KSA if it was known you denounced Islam and became an apostate?

    ==============

    I'd be given a 3-day chance to repent and declare my Islam again, otherwise they'd behead me;

    Do they still carry out death penalties for apostasy there? I've been told they stopped it. Has anyone faced the penalty any time recently for apostasy?

    =============

    It's somehow difficult to find one facing such a punishment, because once you denounce your kaffir thoughts, then you're ok.

    Yet, some were given the 3-day chance.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
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