Thank you, Hassan

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Thank you, Hassan
OP - February 17, 2009, 03:43 AM

for pointing out a silly mistake in the alleged Contradictions prepared by Abul Kasem, whose hilarious articles are considered extremely valuable by FFI.

Ixolite mentioned your comment and I appreciate that. May be you, being literate in Arabic, should do more to educate Abul Qasim, who admitted that he does not understand Arabic at all but derives his conclusions based on English translations. :lol:

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=903&start=10

Quote
Re: Answering "a guide to Quranic contradictions 1"

Postby ixolite ? Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:26 pm
Since when did our articles began to get sloppy? This series should be overworked and the false mentions removed.

There is another blatant mistake, which was pointed out by Hassan from CoEM:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/02/02/ ... ictions-5/

12:19
A passing caravan?s water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph?s brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

WTF? I can only think that someone really REALLY superficially checked the Yusuf Ali translation. This should not happen. Rather write less articles, but deliver better quality.

Editors, I hope you take note of this.

I have left a note to Abul Kasem (Father of Kasem, a contradiction in his own name) at: http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=69

I have also written to you at: www.faithfreedom.org.uk

Salaams
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #1 - February 17, 2009, 05:39 AM

Looking for contradictions in names? That looks very weak on your side BMZ.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #2 - February 17, 2009, 08:11 AM

Quote from: BMZ on February 17, 2009, 03:43 AM
12:19
A passing caravan?s water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph?s brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

What's so contradictory about that & what's Hassan's argument?

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #3 - February 17, 2009, 08:21 AM

See here, Emerald.....

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4395.0

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #4 - February 17, 2009, 08:29 AM

Quote from: Emerald on February 17, 2009, 08:11 AM
Quote from: BMZ on February 17, 2009, 03:43 AM
12:19
A passing caravan?s water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph?s brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

What's so contradictory about that & what's Hassan's argument?

The article on FFI says:

Sura 12: Yusuf (Prophet Joseph)

12:19
A passing caravan's water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph's brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

In other words it says the Qur'an is contradicting itself by saying that on the one hand that Yusuf was "found" in a well and yet also says that he was "sold" by his brothers.

But in actual fact the brothers didn't sell Yusuf. The brothers only threw him down a well. It was a passing caravan that found him in the well and sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

@BMZ Hi, how are you - If Ali Sina could pay me maybe I'd consider going through their articles for them lol
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #5 - February 17, 2009, 08:51 AM

Thx Cheetah and Hassan,

In all cases, i don't see any contradiction.!

Scenario I:
brothers threw him, other ppl found him, brothers sold him to ppl.

Scenario II:
brothers threw him, other ppl found him, those ppl sold him to other ppl.

Very clear, to me...just FYI, all tafseers favored the 1st scenario and supported it with hadiths, athaars and linguists' opinions.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=12&tid=24607

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #6 - February 17, 2009, 09:04 AM

There is no contradiction Emerald. That's the point - the Abul Kasem person who wrote an article about Contradictions in the Qur'an made a mistake. He took half of the Qur'an's version of the story, (which says the bedouin sold Joseph into slavery), and half of the Bible's version, (which says his brothers sold him), and tried to pass it off as a contradiction in the Qur'an.

IOW, he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Qur'an and the Book of Genesis.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #7 - February 17, 2009, 09:10 AM

Yes yes Cheetah, i well know that everyone here agrees there's no contradiction..

Yet, Quran isn't clear about the selling process and who sold him. And when we read major interpretations (Ibn Kathir?s, Tabari?s, Qurtubi?s..) all claim it's the bro's who sold Yoosef, which still doesn't make contradiction IMO.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #8 - February 17, 2009, 09:15 AM

Really? The Qur'an I have says the brothers put him in a well, and that "certain travellers" came to draw water at the well, found Joseph and sold him for a "mean price, for a few pence, and valued him lightly." There's no ambiguity at all about who sold him. Maybe my translation is dodgy

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #9 - February 17, 2009, 09:26 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 17, 2009, 09:15 AM
Really? The Qur'an I have says the brothers put him in a well, and that "certain travellers" came to draw water at the well, found Joseph and sold him for a "mean price, for a few pence, and valued him lightly." There's no ambiguity at all about who sold him. Maybe my translation is dodgy

===========

"and sold him" is the beginning of verse 20, it literally says:

"And they...."

(They) here refers to either the travelers, or brothers, and those mufassereen (interpreters) agreed on the latter.

One might say it's very clear that the writer meant the travelers, since the previous verse was about them..But in Arabic and Quran specifically, it's always possible to use pronouns to substitute a name mentioned in a sentence before the direct previous one.

For ex. (Ibn Kathir) http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=12&tid=24607

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #10 - February 17, 2009, 09:34 AM

Greetings Chummachos.

I was browsing your glorius forum looking for treasure, when I found this by accident! (I like Hassan somewhat-so the topic Thank You Hassan interested me!).

Anyway, I looked into the matter to see for myself if there is a mistake-not that I am AS' lap dog, and I have no idea who AK really is-I just want to see the truth and find out whether his articles which I do read sometimes are trustworthy. Anyway.

According to USC-which is a politically correct website when it comes to the Islamic sources it uses, I found three translations for each verse:

012.019
YUSUFALI: Then there came a caravan of travellers: they sent their water-carrier (for water), and he let down his bucket (into the well)...He said: "Ah there! Good news! Here is a (fine) young man!" So they concealed him as a treasure! But Allah knoweth well all that they do!
PICKTHAL: And there came a caravan, and they sent their waterdrawer. He let down his pail (into the pit). He said: Good luck! Here is a youth. And they hid him as a treasure, and Allah was Aware of what they did.
SHAKIR: And there came travellers and they sent their water-drawer and he let down his bucket. He said: O good news! this is a youth; and they concealed him as an article of merchandise, and Allah knew what they did.

012.020
YUSUFALI: The (Brethren) sold him for a miserable price, for a few dirhams counted out: in such low estimation did they hold him!
PICKTHAL: And they sold him for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him.
SHAKIR: And they sold him for a small price, a few pieces of silver, and they showed no desire for him.

I don't think AK made a huge mistake, I think as someone said he was using the YusufAli version which was a mistake considering the (inserted) word in Quranic translations is usually as reliable as an interfaith dialogue. So he should have used a firmer version, or translated it himself.

I personally am a Arabic understander (I forgot most words) but I can't understand a word of these verses-too cryptic and old styled or gobldegook. But maybe someone who understands Quranic arabic could write a word for word transliteration.

Aside from that, many Quranic contradictions do exist, everyone sees them, so perhaps it's not best to debunk the man's articles so quickly? By the way I don't think AS can afford to pay AK-he would probably rather write the articles himself.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #11 - February 17, 2009, 09:36 AM

Fair enough, Emerald. Bit confusing though.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #12 - February 17, 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote from: Emerald on February 17, 2009, 09:10 AM
Yes yes Cheetah, i well know that everyone here agrees there's no contradiction..

Yet, Quran isn't clear about the selling process and who sold him. And when we read major interpretations (Ibn Kathir?s, Tabari?s, Qurtubi?s..) all claim it's the bro's who sold Yoosef, which still doesn't make contradiction IMO.

Thanks Emerald, I haven't checked the tafseers on this one, just going on what I remembered of the story. I wonder if the mufasireen were influenced by the Biblical story - it wouldn't be the first time. It's clear to me that Muhammad meant the caravan and got the Biblical story wrong - again it wouldn't be the first time.
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #13 - February 18, 2009, 02:46 AM

Well since this is the thread for thanking Hassan.... I'd like to say a big THANK YOU to Hassan for your cool accent! Seriously! I love it!

Quote
It's clear to me that Muhammad meant the caravan and got the Biblical story wrong - again it wouldn't be the first time.

HAHAHA I was raised a Christian and when I first read the Quran I was laughing at all the blatant plageurism LOL

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #14 - February 18, 2009, 02:50 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 17, 2009, 09:04 AM
There is no contradiction Emerald. That's the point - the Abul Kasem person who wrote an article about Contradictions in the Qur'an made a mistake. He took half of the Qur'an's version of the story, (which says the bedouin sold Joseph into slavery), and half of the Bible's version, (which says his brothers sold him), and tried to pass it off as a contradiction in the Qur'an.

IOW, he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Qur'an and the Book of Genesis.

Enjoyed reading your comment, Cheetah.

He has not yet read the chapters of Joshua, Numbers and Judges. If he reads that seriously, he will stop writing about Qur'aan and start writing about the holy Bible.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #15 - February 18, 2009, 02:54 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 17, 2009, 08:29 AM
Quote from: Emerald on February 17, 2009, 08:11 AM
Quote from: BMZ on February 17, 2009, 03:43 AM
12:19
A passing caravan?s water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph?s brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

What's so contradictory about that & what's Hassan's argument?

The article on FFI says:

Sura 12: Yusuf (Prophet Joseph)

12:19
A passing caravan's water drawer rescued Joseph.
Contradiction: 12:20 says Joseph's brothers sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

In other words it says the Qur'an is contradicting itself by saying that on the one hand that Yusuf was "found" in a well and yet also says that he was "sold" by his brothers.

But in actual fact the brothers didn't sell Yusuf. The brothers only threw him down a well. It was a passing caravan that found him in the well and sold him as a slave for a miserly price.

@BMZ Hi, how are you - If Ali Sina could pay me maybe I'd consider going through their articles for them lol

Alhamdulillah, I am fine. Hassan. If Ali Sina could pay, this would not have happened. Ali himself does not understand Qur'aan in Arabic. He talks through translations.

Take care, mate

Salaams
Baig
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #16 - February 18, 2009, 02:56 AM

Quote from: Sanitarium on February 18, 2009, 02:46 AM
Well since this is the thread for thanking Hassan.... I'd like to say a big THANK YOU to Hassan for your cool accent! Seriously! I love it!

Quote
It's clear to me that Muhammad meant the caravan and got the Biblical story wrong - again it wouldn't be the first time.

HAHAHA I was raised a Christian and when I first read the Quran I was laughing at all the blatant plageurism LOL

Indeed it would seem Muhammad repeated many Bible stories without actually understanding them:

Quote
"When Saul set forth with the army he said, "God will test you with a river. Those who drink its water will not be of my people and those who do not even taste the water or who only taste some of it from within the hollow of their hand, will be my friends. They all drank the water except a few of them. When Saul and those who believed in him crossed the river, his people said, "We do not have the strength to fight against Goliath and his army." Those who thought that they would meet God said, "How often, with God's permission, have small groups defeated the large ones?" God is with those who exercise patience."

al-Baqara verse 249

The point of Saul's test was not that his soldiers be thirsty, it was that those who fell flat on their face to guzzle the water were being unwary... Whereas those who squatted and drew up a handful of water were showing the caution necessary for a good soldier. Muhammad just didn't get it.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #17 - February 18, 2009, 03:03 AM

Quote from: Sanitarium on February 18, 2009, 02:46 AM
Well since this is the thread for thanking Hassan.... I'd like to say a big THANK YOU to Hassan for your cool accent! Seriously! I love it!

Quote
It's clear to me that Muhammad meant the caravan and got the Biblical story wrong - again it wouldn't be the first time.

HAHAHA I was raised a Christian and when I first read the Quran I was laughing at all the blatant plageurism LOL

Hello, Sani

Hope all is well and safe around you. Are all the fires under control?

Hassan, indeed, is cool. I lost my forum temper after coming across Hassan and in a few months, found another way to hammer back polemicists and skin the mules.

Cheers
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #18 - February 18, 2009, 03:05 AM

Quote from: BMZ on February 18, 2009, 03:03 AM
Hello, Sani

Hope all is well and safe around you. Are all the fires under control?

Hi BMZ, Yes most of them are and I'm safe! Thanks for thinking of me

Quote from: BMZ on February 18, 2009, 03:03 AM
Hassan, indeed, is cool. I lost my forum temper after coming across Hassan and in a few months, found another way to hammer back polemicists and skin the mules.

Cheers
Baig M Z

HAHAHA. Ahmed made me lose my "forum temper" when I first met him....but then I understood his sense of humour and all is well lol. Where is Ahmed anyway? Does he post here? His forum loads too slowly for me to visit there much.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #19 - February 18, 2009, 03:17 AM

Quote from: Sanitarium on February 18, 2009, 03:05 AM
Quote from: BMZ on February 18, 2009, 03:03 AM
Hello, Sani

Hope all is well and safe around you. Are all the fires under control?

Hi BMZ, Yes most of them are and I'm safe! Thanks for thinking of me

Quote from: BMZ on February 18, 2009, 03:03 AM
Hassan, indeed, is cool. I lost my forum temper after coming across Hassan and in a few months, found another way to hammer back polemicists and skin the mules.

Cheers
Baig M Z

HAHAHA. Ahmed made me lose my "forum temper" when I first met him....but then I understood his sense of humour and all is well lol. Where is Ahmed anyway? Does he post here? His forum loads too slowly for me to visit there much.

Ahmed is very busy. I have not seen him writing here and he does not write at my site. He is our sole and the most powerful representative on FFI forum.

Cheers
Baig
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #20 - February 18, 2009, 08:09 AM

Quote from: Sanitarium on February 18, 2009, 02:46 AM
Well since this is the thread for thanking Hassan.... I'd like to say a big THANK YOU to Hassan for your cool accent! Seriously! I love it!

lol thanks Sani
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #21 - February 18, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 17, 2009, 08:55 PM
Thanks Emerald, I haven't checked the tafseers on this one, just going on what I remembered of the story. I wonder if the mufasireen were influenced by the Biblical story - it wouldn't be the first time. It's clear to me that Muhammad meant the caravan and got the Biblical story wrong - again it wouldn't be the first time.

=============

Hi Hassan,

Yes, I think they were.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #22 - February 18, 2009, 03:31 PM

I am with Emerald that I can not see or detect any source of contradiction.

A bunch of people came in a transport, and were happily surprised to find a boy in the well. The brothers were not in that transport, since they would not have been surprised at all and probably not happy either.

As to why Yusuf introduced the 'brothers' in the verse, that is a testament to Yusuf's fallibility and a testament that the Saudi used one of the weaker translators to represent islam to the English speakers.

Now BMZ, what else was in Abu-Al-Qasim's article that you are still debunking, and what else is in his article that you debunked.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #23 - February 19, 2009, 01:09 AM

Quote from: Baal on February 18, 2009, 03:31 PM
I am with Emerald that I can not see or detect any source of contradiction.

A bunch of people came in a transport, and were happily surprised to find a boy in the well. The brothers were not in that transport, since they would not have been surprised at all and probably not happy either.

As to why Yusuf introduced the 'brothers' in the verse, that is a testament to Yusuf's fallibility and a testament that the Saudi used one of the weaker translators to represent islam to the English speakers.

Yusuf Ali is not a good translator, I find Muhammad Sarwar's translation and Dr Hilali & Dr Khan's translation to be the best and most accurate by Muslims.

And Arthur John Arberry must be the best non-Muslim translator. It is irksome that Yusuf Ali's sugar coated translation is the most common in bookshops and the most frequently cited.

"It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #24 - February 19, 2009, 01:18 AM

Quote from: Aksel Ankersen on February 19, 2009, 01:09 AM
Yusuf Ali is not a good translator, I find Muhammad Sarwar's translation and Dr Hilali & Dr Khan's translation to be the best and most accurate by Muslims.

And Arthur John Arberry must be the best non-Muslim translator. It is irksome that Yusuf Ali's sugar coated translation is the most common in bookshops and the most frequently cited.

===========

Y.A. translates mostly in accordance with tafsirs, thus for Quranists and those who don't entirely rely on tafsirs, it's really the worst choice..

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #25 - February 19, 2009, 03:29 AM

Quote from: Aksel Ankersen on February 19, 2009, 01:09 AM

Yusuf Ali is not a good translator, I find Muhammad Sarwar's translation and Dr Hilali & Dr Khan's translation to be the best and most accurate by Muslims.

And Arthur John Arberry must be the best non-Muslim translator. It is irksome that Yusuf Ali's sugar coated translation is the most common in bookshops and the most frequently cited.

Yes, you are right in saying that Arberry's translation is the best among the ones done by non-Muslims.

I would rate Hilali and Khan's translation as the worst. Sarwar's is okay but I strongly recommend Muhammad Asad's translation for readers, who do not know Arabic. His translation is quite good. Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) was a Jew before he embraced Islam and lived with the tribes, near Mecca, to learn and study the Dialect in which Qur'aan was given.

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #26 - February 19, 2009, 03:32 AM

Quote from: BMZ on February 19, 2009, 03:29 AM
Sarwar's is okay but I strongly recommend Muhammad Asad's translation for readers, who do not know Arabic.

Thanks Baig. So you're saying that my method of compiling a list of native Arabic speakers and bothering them to within an inch of their sanity via PM is not the best strategy for understanding the Quran then? *adds Baig to the list*

Also, what's with the translators using old english? I seriously hate reading it...it's so tiring lol

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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #27 - February 19, 2009, 03:36 AM

Quote from: Baal on February 18, 2009, 03:31 PM
I am with Emerald that I can not see or detect any source of contradiction.

A bunch of people came in a transport, and were happily surprised to find a boy in the well. The brothers were not in that transport, since they would not have been surprised at all and probably not happy either.

As to why Yusuf introduced the 'brothers' in the verse, that is a testament to Yusuf's fallibility and a testament that the Saudi used one of the weaker translators to represent islam to the English speakers.

Now BMZ, what else was in Abu-Al-Qasim's article that you are still debunking, and what else is in his article that you debunked.

Actually. I am not doing anything. I just emailed the clown and asked him if he knew how to read and understand in Arabic and he was decent enough to confirm that he does not understand Arabic. Like many others, he bases his silly contradictions on various translations, when he cannot understand.

Myxtic is doing a great debunking on FFI. Go read and figure.

Cheers
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #28 - February 19, 2009, 03:46 AM

Quote from: Sanitarium on February 19, 2009, 03:32 AM
Quote from: BMZ on February 19, 2009, 03:29 AM
Sarwar's is okay but I strongly recommend Muhammad Asad's translation for readers, who do not know Arabic.

Thanks Baig. So you're saying that my method of compiling a list of native Arabic speakers and bothering them to within an inch of their sanity via PM is not the best strategy for understanding the Quran then? *adds Baig to the list*

Also, what's with the translators using old english? I seriously hate reading it...it's so tiring lol

Hello, Sani

Yes, that is correct. It is just like asking a British coal-miner, who can speak English but does not understand poetry and literature, to explain a poem by Keats or Wordsworth.

Among native speakers, I rate Ahmed as the one who has a good command of Arabic, specially Qur'aan's Arabic.

I will write about this when I have more time.

Cheers
Baig
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Re: Thank you, Hassan
Reply #29 - February 19, 2009, 04:13 AM

Quote from: BMZ on February 19, 2009, 03:36 AM
Quote from: Baal on February 18, 2009, 03:31 PM
I am with Emerald that I can not see or detect any source of contradiction.

A bunch of people came in a transport, and were happily surprised to find a boy in the well. The brothers were not in that transport, since they would not have been surprised at all and probably not happy either.

As to why Yusuf introduced the 'brothers' in the verse, that is a testament to Yusuf's fallibility and a testament that the Saudi used one of the weaker translators to represent islam to the English speakers.

Now BMZ, what else was in Abu-Al-Qasim's article that you are still debunking, and what else is in his article that you debunked.

Actually. I am not doing anything. I just emailed the clown and asked him if he knew how to read and understand in Arabic and he was decent enough to confirm that he does not understand Arabic. Like many others, he bases his silly contradictions on various translations, when he cannot understand.

Myxtic is doing a great debunking on FFI. Go read and figure.

Cheers

Excellent, that is at least honest of him, now what else was in his article that was wrong. Beside this mistake and the contradiction you found in his name.

Cheers,

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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