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Theme Changer

 Topic: Who Is An Extremist?

 (Read 14871 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Who Is An Extremist?
     OP - February 17, 2009, 02:50 PM

    Who Is An Extremist?


    David T, February 17th 2009, 1:30 pm

    According to the Guardian, which has a copy of the Government?s draft anti-extremism strategy (?Contest 2?), this is what makes you an extremist:

    ? They advocate a caliphate, a pan-Islamic state encompassing many countries.

    ? They promote Sharia law.

    ? They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military.

    ? They argue that Islam bans homosexuality and that it is a sin against Allah.

    ? They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    That seems spot on, to me.

    It has also impressed Ed Husain:

    Ed Husain, of the Quilliam Foundation thinktank, said the root causes of terrorism were extremist views, even if those advocating the views did not call for violence.

    Husain, once an extremist himself, said: ?Violent extremism is produced by Islamist extremism and it?s only right to get into the root causes.?

    But our old friend, Bungle, disagrees:

    Inayat Bunglawala, a former spokesman for the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said such plans would affect many British Muslims. Bunglawala, who now runs Engage, which tries to get Muslims to participate in politics and civic society, said: ?That would alienate the majority of the British Muslim public. It would be counterproductive and class most Muslims as extremists.?

    What Bungle actually means is that (a) he holds many of these extreme Islamist views himself and (b) it would be unfair to class him as an extremist.

    Bungle is wrong, of course. Soft peddling and double standards on this issue has had the effect of legitimating and emboldening Islamists, and has left ordinary people of all faiths and none feeling exposed and angry.

    There?s another aspect to this story as well. Islamist groups have done rather well out of this Government?s existing ?Preventing Violent Extremism? anti-terrorism strategy, as Dean Godson pointed out last year. To put it bluntly, it is absurd that public funds have gone into the pockets of the enemies of our liberal and democratic country.

    There are some in the corridors of power who have been persuaded by the Cruickshank and Bergen thesis, which advocates championing the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups as a bulwark against Al Qaeda.

    If the Government sticks to its guns, and if this definition is put into practice, this is extremely good news indeed.

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/17/who-is-an-extremist/
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #1 - February 17, 2009, 03:02 PM

    That definition of extemist, however true it is, encompasses a huge mass of Muslims.  You are endanger of brandishing all true believers of Islam as extremists.

    You then leave Muslims with a choice of either Islam is wrong, or the governments position is wrong.  Its not the right time to alienate Muslims from the state. 

    You have to start with blanket secular policies first, and then slowly bring in these changes dressed as non-religion specific initiatives.

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #2 - February 17, 2009, 03:11 PM

    It's not me it's the government.

    The one thing that stood out as potentially problematic was the wording of the Islamic view on homosexuality. Believing that your god proscribes homosexuality doesn't make you an extremist but believing that homosexuality should be banned and homosexuals punished does make one an extremist.

    Some rewording should be done but essentially they are spot on.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #3 - February 17, 2009, 04:26 PM

    they should have a point based system... where a positive to each of those answers is one point.. and say, an 8/10 is extreme.

    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #4 - February 17, 2009, 04:30 PM

    the length of their beards is probably more accurate

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #5 - February 17, 2009, 04:38 PM

    the length of their beards is probably more accurate


    Not to mention the length of their trousers/shalwar.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #6 - February 17, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Frankly, as an American Muslim convert-now apostate the first impression I got of most Muslims upon first moving to the UK was that they are generally more extreme than their bretherin in the USA.  I used to be jealous of how 'organised' the Muslims in the UK seemed compared to the US but soon figured out that it was because they seem to be more militant here than back home.


    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #7 - February 17, 2009, 04:46 PM

    My opinion:

     They advocate a caliphate, a pan-Islamic state encompassing many countries.

    Definitely extremist!

    They promote Sharia law.

    Again extremist.

    They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military.

    If they call it a jihad, in almost all cases they could be termed extremist, and Israel is not exactly of the business of Brit Muslims .However, many Muslims, like many non Muslims, can oppose further Israel's illegal settlements in Palestine, without calling it a jihad. Isreal sometimes extends illegal settlements claiming its the land given to them by YHWH, don't they?

    And what about a Palestinian Christian like George Habash, who was associated with the Palestinian nationalist, Marxist Leninist PLO?

    They argue that Islam bans homosexuality and that it is a sin against Allah

    Too many religious folk do this, unfair to single Muslims out. However, calling for jailing or killing homosexuals is definitely extremism. So is a hate crime against gays.This applies to all anti gay religious folks.

    They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    Of course, their loyalty should ideally lie with Britain, but anyone not just Muslims, can and have opposed the Iraq War. It needn't only be a religious thing.

    Didn't loads of folk, irrespective of religion, oppose the Vietnam War?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #8 - February 17, 2009, 05:07 PM

    Quote
    Of course, their loyalty should ideally lie with Britain, but anyone not just Muslims, can and have opposed the Iraq War. It needn't only be a religious thing.

    Didn't loads of folk, irrespective of religion, oppose the Vietnam War?


    You're confusing two different concepts there.  Opposing the war does not mean cheering on the deaths of the soldiers sent out to fight it.  An anti-war campaigner should have no problem condemning the deaths of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless he identifies with the group who did the killing. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #9 - February 17, 2009, 06:12 PM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #10 - February 17, 2009, 06:27 PM

    The vast majority of Muslims, when pressed, will support Shariah.  So are the vast majority of Muslims extremists?

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #11 - February 17, 2009, 06:33 PM

    The vast majority of Muslims, when pressed, will support Shariah.  So are the vast majority of Muslims extremists?

    Pressed? Do you have any statistical data to back up your hypothesis? And if your hypothesis is indeed true, then the vast majority of Muslims are extremists. In my country at least, Shariah has very negative connotations and people who support Shariah are the fundamentalists of our society.

    Being a vast majority is not an excuse.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #12 - February 17, 2009, 06:47 PM

    No, I dont have statistical data but anecdotally it is true for me, at least here in the UK (similar to the homosexual question in Chistianity).  In fact those that say they dont, face accusations of being an apostate and the wrath of Allah. 

    There is a distinction between those that pay lip service to Shariah Laws, and those that truly want to have it made law - you have to draw that distinction before labelling most Muslims as extremists. 

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #13 - February 17, 2009, 06:51 PM

    No, I dont have statistical data but anecdotally it is true for me, at least here in the UK (similar to the homosexual question in Chistianity).  In fact those that say they dont, face accusations of being an apostate and the wrath of Allah. 

    There is a distinction between those that pay lip service to Shariah Laws, and those that truly want to have it made law - you have to draw that distinction before labelling most Muslims as extremists. 


    But, if there is indeed enough pressure to make many/most pretend they believe in Shariah Laws it is indeed very worrying as to how many and who truly believe in it.

    I personally think that most (practicing) Muslims want some form of Shariah (whether it ranges from family law to execution) as they may believe that this is their duty to support it considering it stems from the Quran and Sunnah.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #14 - February 17, 2009, 07:11 PM

    Yes, it is sad and  it is another example that shows the power of religion.  I also believe it has a negative influence on the more progressive types, as they have an eternal inner conflict with their religion. 

    Apostacy needs to be made more socially acceptable, and before the government starts labelling people as extremists, it needs to say that out aloud.

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #15 - February 17, 2009, 07:20 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    There is a distinction between those that pay lip service to Shariah Laws, and those that truly want to have it made law - you have to draw that distinction before labelling most Muslims as extremists. 

    Anectodal evidence is not that trustworthy. Anybody who actively supports Shariah law in any corner of the planet is an extremist by any standards.

    Quote from: IsLame
    In fact those that say they dont, face accusations of being an apostate and the wrath of Allah. 

    They should have the intellectual courage to do so. Anybody who supports the killing of apostates and homosexuals, blatant discrimination against women, and the suppression of human creativity is an extremist. They are as despicable as the Far Right.

    I do not accept Christian morality and I am not interested in turning the other cheek to conservative/reactionary Muslims. I am not interested in showing too much sympathy for people who will turn their faces the other way while "Infidels" are being persecuted. I can have sympathy for Islamic reformists or liberals who conceal their true opinions and pay lip service to Shariah because of overwhelming peer pressure. However, Muslims who support Shariah for cultural reasons, to conform to the rest of the Islamic society, people who fear being the black sheep, are a part of the problem --not the solution.

    These lip-service Muslims are quite comfortable with the suffering of others, and even if they do not actively support Shariah, they condone it without any desire to challenge its inhuman principles. The only thing that distances some of these lip-service Muslims from genuine Islamic fundamentalism is intellectual cowardice, a lack of idealism and fanaticism. In other words, they still support Shariah, even if they don't have the guts to fight for it. They are incompetent extremists in my opinion --but extremists, nevertheless.

    For me, any conservative Muslim is an obstacle for social progress and any fundamentalist Muslim is an opponent. I have absolutely zero sympathy for any Muslim who supports Shariah, despite being aware of its vile aspects.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #16 - February 17, 2009, 07:45 PM

    Quote
    Of course, their loyalty should ideally lie with Britain, but anyone not just Muslims, can and have opposed the Iraq War. It needn't only be a religious thing.

    Didn't loads of folk, irrespective of religion, oppose the Vietnam War?


    You're confusing two different concepts there.  Opposing the war does not mean cheering on the deaths of the soldiers sent out to fight it.  An anti-war campaigner should have no problem condemning the deaths of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless he identifies with the group who did the killing. 


    Cheetah,
    I do feel sad when I read about soldiers death in Iraq. But, I am far more saddened by innocent lives lost in Iraq. From my perspective Iraq war was 100% unjust. If UK invades some country with armed forces, it should be expected that some of her soldiers will lose life. On a personal level I have lot of compassion towards family of those soldiers, but I don't condemn it politically. Does that make me extremist?
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #17 - February 17, 2009, 07:49 PM

    "Anectodal evidence is not that trustworthy" may be true, but without statistics to show this fact, its all I have to go off.  In any case I am fairly comfortable with this conclusion even if I have no objective evidence to go off - in fact I have never met a Muslim in the UK who openly opposes Shariah Law.

    Other than that you make a good point..

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #18 - February 17, 2009, 11:41 PM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.


    I don't agree. Most Muslims feel obliged to support Shari'ah - but only pay lip-service to it while never ever wanting to see it imposed on them.

    They are not extremists - simply victims of the religion and culture they have been brought up in.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #19 - February 18, 2009, 12:15 AM

    ? They advocate a caliphate, a pan-Islamic state encompassing many countries.

    Yeah, I'd say this is semi-extremist.

    ? They promote Sharia law.

    Nah. I wouldn't exactly call this an extremist position.

    ? They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military.

    Many moderate Muslims believe this. Although the definition of 'Jihad' varies. Uh, the armed resistance thing doesn't seem exactly extremist IMO. Self defiance, right? Isn't that why Israeli army is in Palestine in the first place?  Wink


    ? They argue that Islam bans homosexuality and that it is a sin against Allah.

    Well, Islam does ban homosexuality. In fact, I know very little Muslims who are okay with homosexuality. Not extremist position at all. Regular old Islam.

    ? They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    Yeah, well innocent Iraqis and Afghanis are being killed by British/American soldiers. Why should Muslims be concerned with the death of soldiers when MUSLIM civilian deaths are involved? Why should they condemn the deaths of soldiers they rightly believe are responsible for the deaths of innocents? Not extremist at all. Or are you talking about how they fail to condemn the attacks done by terrorist organizations? I think those are two different things.



    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #20 - February 18, 2009, 01:13 AM

    Quote
    Of course, their loyalty should ideally lie with Britain, but anyone not just Muslims, can and have opposed the Iraq War. It needn't only be a religious thing.

    Didn't loads of folk, irrespective of religion, oppose the Vietnam War?


    You're confusing two different concepts there.  Opposing the war does not mean cheering on the deaths of the soldiers sent out to fight it.  An anti-war campaigner should have no problem condemning the deaths of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless he identifies with the group who did the killing. 


    It's surprising but so many people have been bought up to believe that whenever the West takes military action in a non Western country it is a racist, genocidal, greed driven, cowardly act of oppression. Killing poor brown people in the name of imperialism.

    They see the world through the eyes of Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore.  

    For these rather unextreme middle class liberal minded people, British soldiers represent the evil neocon agenda, a revival of Western imperialism, brutal occupation, racism, power, greed and oil grabbing genocide.

    This view of the West causes some very liberal minded people to at worst cheer the deaths of British soldiers and at best say that they don't cheer but that the soldier had it coming for being part of a military machine which is in the process of oppressing poor people and frying babies for oil.

    When they hear of British soldiers being killed they don't react as if a professional soldier from a liberal democracy has been killed fighting a fascistic theocratic regime of the far right they react as if a racist boot boy and pawn of an evil empire has been mercifully wiped out by the courageous and humble resistance.

    Many people have been bought up to oppose the British Army in everything it does, they have been taught all their lives that imperialism was the biggest crime in history and when the see British or American soldiers they immediately think of slaves being dragged from Africa, children being shot at Amritsar, the massacre at Mai Lai or Hitlers SS.

    Good liberal people look on any Western military action and oppose it.

    The lesson liberals took from WW2 was not that we did the right thing by standing up to tyranny and introducing liberal democracy to Germany and Japan but that "war is never the answer" and that ultimately Western military might ends up being like the Nazi War machine instead of the Marshal Plan.

    They identify the modern Liberal democracies of today more with that those regimes of Hitler and Mussolini than Roosevelt and Churchill. Who were incidentally wicked imperialists of the worst kind anyway.

    They see white men in uniforms with guns and don't see the (liberal democratic human right supporting) Allies fighting the far right they immediately associate those soldiers with the darkest moments in our history.

    That is why so many normally sensible people cheer the deaths of our soldiers or fail to oppose those who our troops are fighting.

    So cheering the deaths of our troops and supporting Iraqi insurgents doesn't necessarily make one an extremist. It's only extreme if you view the world as it is but many people see the world differently.

    For them the bad things that are written about Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban are just lies written by the Zionist controlled Western media to smear resistance to brutal illegal occupation.

    If that's how you see the world then it's not extreme to support the far right and cheers the deaths of British soldiers.

    So I'm starting to see problems with this list.

    As Hass says many liberal Muslims might support Sharia law.

    In my humble opinion it's not because they want to see women demoted to second place and stonings and beheadings but because by default they have been bought up to not question the perfection of Islam.

    If you blindly accept that Islam is perfect it is quite easy not to care about the details of Sharia and just support it because it comes from the one true perfect religion and ultimately the creator of the universe.

    So condemning homosexuality, supporting Sharia, supporting the Taliban and opposing our troops doesn't necessarily make one an extremist. Deluded, confused and labouring under some pretty foolish beliefs but not necessarily extreme.

    I think Rashna is spot on if they use the word Jihad and talk about the Caliphate that is when the alarm bells should start ringing.

    Although if you tick all of the boxes on the list and not only one or two you are without a doubt an extreme fuck pig it is easy to see how this list could alienate potentially moderate people.

    Trust the government to get it wrong.


    They got it seriously wrong in the 90's when under the banner of human rights they welcomed, protected and supported Jihadis in their you leave us alone and we'll leave you alone Covenant Of Security.

    They get it wrong when they invade Iraq and assume they have got Afghanistan sorted.

    They get it wrong when they appease Muslim anger by trying to pass "Incitement to religious hatred/blasphemy laws"


    They get it doubly wrong when they try to oppose Al Quieda by promoting The Muslim Brotherhood.

    Now when they finally seem to be drawing the line in the sand and saying enough is enough and they fuck that up....Sheesh mysmilie_977

    And these pricks went to university and get paid top dollar. Give us a job, I could do that.

      
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #21 - February 18, 2009, 07:52 AM

    Quote
    Of course, their loyalty should ideally lie with Britain, but anyone not just Muslims, can and have opposed the Iraq War. It needn't only be a religious thing.

    Didn't loads of folk, irrespective of religion, oppose the Vietnam War?


    You're confusing two different concepts there.  Opposing the war does not mean cheering on the deaths of the soldiers sent out to fight it.  An anti-war campaigner should have no problem condemning the deaths of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless he identifies with the group who did the killing. 


    Allright, I got it now I really was confusing two concepts. And a lot of British Muslims cheer the deaths of soldiers for entirely wrong reasons. Saddam as a tyrant and sort of secularist was widely despised by devout Muslims pre war. And Saddam has killed plenty of Muslims himself, those who opposed him in Iraq or during the Gulf Wars.As for Afghanistan, I don't think many Muslims will like living under the Taliban. However, many Muslims hate American and British soldiers killing Iraqi or Afghans simply because they're kaffirs and celebrate their deaths as kaffirs killed by Muslims. This is extremism, but opposing military action anywhere, including in Muslim lands is not. Also , claiming like George Bush did, that God told him to attack Iraq, is religious extremism, or religious extremist rhetoric.

    As for Shariah, I think shariah is extremist.Many elements of it are in flagrant violation of the principles of equality of the sexes or modern human rights. If Muslims seem to support Shariah in general, ask them about specific provisions of it. Many would pay lip service to Shariah, yet oppose , inequal rights to divorce for women, stoning, amputation and compulsory veiling.

    If they support such elements of Shariah, then  other Brits have a right to oppose such people. A country after all needs agreement on certain core values, and religions need to adjust to social changes. No Jew in U.K. demands OT laws, nor should a Muslim.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #22 - February 18, 2009, 10:27 AM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.


    I don't agree. Most Muslims feel obliged to support Shari'ah - but only pay lip-service to it while never ever wanting to see it imposed on them.

    They are not extremists - simply victims of the religion and culture they have been brought up in.

    As I've already stated, I am not interested in defending the silent supporters of Shariah. We can always come up with superficial reasons to redeem an individual, a minority or a majority from blame. We could claim that neo-Nazis are just embittered, disappointed individuals who are the victims of their ideology. Would that work?

    These lip-service Muslims lack the intellectual courage to oppose Islam, or at least its vilest aspects. They obstruct social progress. Perhaps you cannot recruit terrorists amongst them, but they still constitute a reactionary element. So? Any Muslim who defends or supports the injustice of Shariah is an extremist --the killings of apostates and homosexuals, the oppression of women, and the persecution of religious minorities.

    And there is much statistical research done on this field, apparently. Two links I came up with:

    www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/File/109489/Islam_and_Democracy.pdf
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/108724/Iranians-Egyptians-Turks-Contrasting-Views-Sharia.aspx

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #23 - February 18, 2009, 11:34 AM

    In Egypt 63% believe Sharia should be the only source of legislation. 

    Looks like democracy will bring in the Sharia! ...So I guess thats where Egypt is headed.

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #24 - February 18, 2009, 09:51 PM

    In Egypt 63% believe Sharia should be the only source of legislation. 

    Looks like democracy will bring in the Sharia! ...So I guess thats where Egypt is headed.

    Well, a Turkish majority voted for the Islamic conservative "Justice and Development Party" in Turkey. They are supposedly liberal conservatives and Islamic reformists --what oxymorons. That's the problem with democracy, the majority wields too much power. Their delusions therefore are enforced to the whole society.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #25 - February 18, 2009, 10:35 PM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.


    I don't agree. Most Muslims feel obliged to support Shari'ah - but only pay lip-service to it while never ever wanting to see it imposed on them.

    They are not extremists - simply victims of the religion and culture they have been brought up in.

    As I've already stated, I am not interested in defending the silent supporters of Shariah. We can always come up with superficial reasons to redeem an individual, a minority or a majority from blame. We could claim that neo-Nazis are just embittered, disappointed individuals who are the victims of their ideology. Would that work?

    These lip-service Muslims lack the intellectual courage to oppose Islam, or at least its vilest aspects. They obstruct social progress. Perhaps you cannot recruit terrorists amongst them, but they still constitute a reactionary element. So? Any Muslim who defends or supports the injustice of Shariah is an extremist --the killings of apostates and homosexuals, the oppression of women, and the persecution of religious minorities.

    And there is much statistical research done on this field, apparently. Two links I came up with:

    www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/File/109489/Islam_and_Democracy.pdf
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/108724/Iranians-Egyptians-Turks-Contrasting-Views-Sharia.aspx


    But many either don't realise the full implication of what they are paying lip-service to or they believe in some ill-defined, utopian, abstract concept - which they call Shari'ah because they are bound to use this term of reference.

    It is far too simplistic to call them extremists.

    And since the extremists are considered the "enemy" then are you comfortable about labeling such a huge proportion of ordinary and otherwise peaceful and law-abiding Muslims - "The Enemy"?
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #26 - February 18, 2009, 10:39 PM

    That's the problem with democracy, the majority wields too much power. Their delusions therefore are enforced to the whole society.

    As George Bernard Shaw once said, the problem with democracy is that it weighs people by numbers, and not by their minds.

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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #27 - February 18, 2009, 11:59 PM

    That's the problem with democracy, the majority wields too much power. Their delusions therefore are enforced to the whole society.

    As George Bernard Shaw once said, the problem with democracy is that it weighs people by numbers, and not by their minds.


    That's only true of a simplistic and reductive definition of democracy.  In practise it involves more than a mere head count - for example, a free press has to be in place otherwise people don't have a truly free vote because they don't have full information.  A written constitution which limits the government's power to change the law without public debate is another prerequisite, otherwise any group can manipulate its way into power and then do whatever the hell it wants, regardless of what people actually voted for.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #28 - February 19, 2009, 01:01 AM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.

    Tough call. Most people who support the Sharia could not know jack about it. And most think that beyond the bad misinterpretations by 'the not so bright muslims' and 'by the bad media', there is something good in that sharia document.

    Just like they believe the koran is inherently good but misunderstood.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #29 - February 19, 2009, 01:05 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    It is far too simplistic to call them extremists.

    And it isn't simplistic to exonerate the entire Islamic majority from the crime of supporting Shariah? How many of these peaceful, law-abiding Muslims had the courage or curiosity to question, at the very least, the worst aspects of Islam? Even if they are not "extremists" according to your definition, they are still despicable, being the mediocre bigots that they are. Being "such a huge proportion" is not an excuse at all.

    Your position is similar to that naive worldview espoused by some people --that all human beings are inherently and unconditionally good. You know, criminals are just the victims of society, they are all angels deep inside, etc. If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are just the victims of their religion, who are the criminals? My sympathy belongs to the victims of Shariah, not to its advocates --nor to the silent, hypocritical crowds who avert their eyes when they see Shariah at action.

    It is possible to come up with all kinds of excuses to defend the delusions of the average Muslim. What about the victims of Shariah? For me, protecting the victims of Shariah is infinitely more important than offering some more comfort to the average Muslim. Let them watch how we desecrate their idols.

    "A minority may be right, but a majority is always wrong."
    Henrik Ibsen

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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