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Theme Changer

 Topic: Who Is An Extremist?

 (Read 14552 times)
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  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #30 - February 19, 2009, 03:30 AM

    But the line between extremism and ignorance does exist and should not be confounded Zaephon,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #31 - February 19, 2009, 05:06 PM

    But the line between extremism and ignorance does exist and should not be confounded Zaephon,

    Yes. Ignorance of the principles of Islam may be a valid excuse perhaps, but I think Hassan's definition was much broader. Then again, most crimes are a result of ignorance.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #32 - February 19, 2009, 05:39 PM

    Anyone who supports the Shariah is an extremist.

    Tough call. Most people who support the Sharia could not know jack about it. And most think that beyond the bad misinterpretations by 'the not so bright muslims' and 'by the bad media', there is something good in that sharia document.

    Just like they believe the koran is inherently good but misunderstood.




    For once I agree with you 100% Baal.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #33 - February 19, 2009, 05:54 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    It is far too simplistic to call them extremists.

    And it isn't simplistic to exonerate the entire Islamic majority from the crime of supporting Shariah? How many of these peaceful, law-abiding Muslims had the courage or curiosity to question, at the very least, the worst aspects of Islam? Even if they are not "extremists" according to your definition, they are still despicable, being the mediocre bigots that they are. Being "such a huge proportion" is not an excuse at all.

    Your position is similar to that naive worldview espoused by some people --that all human beings are inherently and unconditionally good. You know, criminals are just the victims of society, they are all angels deep inside, etc. If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are just the victims of their religion, who are the criminals? My sympathy belongs to the victims of Shariah, not to its advocates --nor to the silent, hypocritical crowds who avert their eyes when they see Shariah at action.

    It is possible to come up with all kinds of excuses to defend the delusions of the average Muslim. What about the victims of Shariah? For me, protecting the victims of Shariah is infinitely more important than offering some more comfort to the average Muslim. Let them watch how we desecrate their idols.

    "A minority may be right, but a majority is always wrong."
    Henrik Ibsen


    No, Zaephon, you don't seem to understand what I am saying. Maybe in Turkey is is now commonly accepted that a Muslim can reject the concept of Shari'ah and still consider himself a Muslim.

    But for most Muslims they feel that accepting "Shari'ah" is akin to accepting the Qur'an is God's word - they cannot reject it.

    I used to believe in Shari'ah, Zaephon - do you think I was ever an "Extremist"?

    Saying one believes in Shari'ah - for most ordinary Muslims - doesn't mean they want Taliban or Saudi or any existing form of traditional Shari'ah.

    They simply believe in it as an "ideal" - because they think they have to.

    They are either completely ignorant of what Shari'ah means and/or believe in some as yet untried perfect ideal of "God's Law" that when implemented would be happy and wonderful for everyone.

    I used to believe in Shari'ah in such a way - as some sort of perfect system that as yet we haven't yet truly discovered. I totally rejected - and condemned - the Shari'ah laws found in Saudi/Iran/Taliban or indeed anywhere in the world.

    I don't know a genuine Muslim who will not support the ideal of Shari'ah in some way. They simply don't think they have the option of rejecting it.

    But I wasn't an extremist - nor were all the Muslims I knew "Extremists" - in any way shape or form.

    It was only when I finally rejected Islam and no-longer believed the Qur'an was word of God that I finally was able to dump the idea of a Perfect Divine Code (Sharia'h) also.

    If you are going to call all Muslims who believe in Shari'ah "Extremist" then you have to call all Muslims who believe in the Qur'an "Extremist"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #34 - February 19, 2009, 06:06 PM

    Quote

    But Neither I nor all the Muslims I knew were "Extremists" in any way shape or form.



    Hi Hassan,

    No offence but I'm guessing a few extremist views must have been flirted with at some time during your journey through Islam. I mean you do seem to know personally quite a few of the nutters out there.

    No offence intended.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #35 - February 19, 2009, 06:12 PM

    Quote

    But Neither I nor all the Muslims I knew were "Extremists" in any way shape or form.



    Hi Hassan,

    No offence but I'm guessing a few extremist views must have been flirted with at some time during your journey through Islam. I mean you do seem to know personally quite a few of the nutters out there.

    No offence intended.


    No offence taken  Smiley  What I meant by the "Muslims I knew" was my friends and socail circle. None of them were extremists even though they all believed in the ideal of Shari'ah.

    The only Muslim I knew who became an extremist was the guy I wrote about who joined a group and went off to Afghanistan.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #36 - February 19, 2009, 06:14 PM

    Oh and I also knew Sheikh Faisal - though he was not my friend lol
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #37 - February 19, 2009, 06:16 PM

    Quote

    But Neither I nor all the Muslims I knew were "Extremists" in any way shape or form.



    Hi Hassan,

    No offence but I'm guessing a few extremist views must have been flirted with at some time during your journey through Islam. I mean you do seem to know personally quite a few of the nutters out there.

    No offence intended.


    No offence taken  Smiley  What I meant by the "Muslims I knew" was my friends and socail circle. None of them were extremists even though they all believed in the ideal of Shari'ah.

    The only Muslim I knew who could be called an extremist was the guy I wrote about who joined a group and went off to Afghanistan.


    So you never sat in a mosque where the Imam would make a du'a asking Allah to destroy the Kuffar in Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir......

    Not that I don't believe you, you seem incredibly credible, but I've only sat in one or two mosques who didn't end the Juma'ah Khutba with this and other similar du'as.

    Take care.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #38 - February 19, 2009, 06:17 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    But - and this is the important bit - it doesn't mean they want Taliban or Saudi or even any form of traditional Shari'ah. They are either completely ignorant of what Shari'ah means (and will typically condemn Saudi and Pakistan for 'distorting' Islam and not implementing Shari'ah "properly") and/or believe in some as yet untried perfect ideal of "God's Law" that when implemented would be happy and wonderful for everyone.

    I used to believe in Shari'ah in such a way - as some sort of perfect system that as yet we haven't yet got right, even though I totally rejected the Shari'ah systems found in Saudi/Iran/Taliban or indeed anywhere in the world.

    There are many Muslims who defend Shariah despite knowing the juicy bits, and they are extremists in my opinion. There are many Muslims who defend the Islamic Republic or the Taliban. So, their utopian and simplistic worldview exonerates them from the guilt of supporting Islamic discrimination against ethnic and religious minorities, or women?

    You are just one individual and obviously, the ideals you cherished while you were a Muslim are not shared by the greater Islamic community. There are many Muslims who take pride in beheadings and the persecution of minorities, even if they lack the enthusiasm or the circumstances to do any real damage to the victims of Shariah. Are they not extremists?

    Quote from: Hassan
    I don't know a genuine Muslim who will not support the ideal of Shari'ah in some way. They can't reject it - don't you understand? I would have thought anyone who had been a Muslim would understand that.

    Sorry, even when I was a Muslim child, Shariah was a totally alien concept to me --a vague and monstrous thing guilty of beheading people. So my experience is different than yours. And what the heck is a genuine Muslim? I thought you opposed such definitions. I know several practicing Muslims who oppose Shariah, are they not genuine Muslims?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #39 - February 19, 2009, 06:22 PM

    Oh and I also knew Sheikh Faisal - though he was not my friend lol


    Cough, cough - and that nutter from Wkikpedia lol  Wink
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #40 - February 19, 2009, 06:23 PM

    So you never sat in a mosque where the Imam would make a du'a asking Allah to destroy the Kuffar in Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir......


    Oh I definitely heard that. But if that makes one an extremist then every Muslim who attends a Mosque is an extremist.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #41 - February 19, 2009, 06:24 PM

    So you never sat in a mosque where the Imam would make a du'a asking Allah to destroy the Kuffar in Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir......


    Oh I definitely heard that. But if that makes one an extremist then every Muslim who attends a Mosque is an extremist.



    No, that's not what I suggested. What I meant was surely you knew people who would support such ideas/du'as personally and thus you knew extremists?

    Anyway it isn't an important matter, just one question though, did you guys at Islamiah teach from Saudi ministry text books?

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #42 - February 19, 2009, 06:26 PM

    Oh and I also knew Sheikh Faisal - though he was not my friend lol


    Cough, cough - and that nutter from Wkikpedia lol  Wink


    Hmmm... I wouldn't call him an extremist. He is a Sufi who follows the Murabitun - they are a bit kooky, but I wouldn't call them extremists.


  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #43 - February 19, 2009, 06:27 PM

    did you guys at Islamiah teach from Saudi ministry text books?


    No, we used standard UK curriculum books.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #44 - February 19, 2009, 06:30 PM

    But the line between extremism and ignorance does exist and should not be confounded Zaephon,

    Yes. Ignorance of the principles of Islam may be a valid excuse perhaps, but I think Hassan's definition was much broader. Then again, most crimes are a result of ignorance.

    It is True that most crimes are a result of ignorance. Even extremism is the result of ignorance. When someone only knows the islamic scripture and is ignorant of any other better way.

    But I think such muslims that are ignorant of sharia yet 'fundamentally' support it, should have a different name.

    Linguistically the term 'islamic scripture fundamentalists' is the most accurate. As they fundamentally believe the scripture to be absolutely good.

    But such a term culturally is not correct to use. As fundamentalist has been confounded with extremist. And the term "islamic scripture fundamentalist" will also imply that they actually know what the scripture is all about.

    So we should still look for a different name.






    Devil's Dictionary: A Fanatic is an Extremist with a Hobby.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #45 - February 19, 2009, 06:40 PM

    There are many Muslims who take pride in beheadings and the persecution of minorities, even if they lack the enthusiasm or the circumstances to do any real damage to the victims of Shariah. Are they not extremists?


    Of course they are - but I am not talking about those who actively support such things.

    I am talking about those who feel that supporting the concept of Shari'ah is as necessary as believing in the Qur'an.

    Sorry, even when I was a Muslim child, Shariah was a totally alien concept to me --a vague and monstrous thing guilty of beheading people. So my experience is different than yours. And what the heck is a genuine Muslim? I thought you opposed such definitions. I know several practicing Muslims who oppose Shariah, are they not genuine Muslims?


    I assume you are talking about secularist Muslims. I don't know how many of those there are, Zaephon - possibly more in Turkey than elsewhere, but they are a minority. As I say, most ordinary Muslims do not believe they have the option of being a 'secularist Muslim'

    It would be great if they did - and I sincerely hope the secularists will win out one day. But they will need to convince most Muslims that Islam should not play any part in governing society as a whole but is only a private matter. As yet they are a long way off.

  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #46 - February 19, 2009, 06:43 PM

    I dont think you can call them ignorant -(they know & appreciate what the Quran is saying), nor can you call them  extremists.

    They simply don't want to challenge Gods word - in the same way we didn't challenge our parents when we were young, even if we knew they were wrong.  They see God as the ultimate parent, and do not feel they have a right to challenge what God has ordained.

    They are simply following orders, just like German soldiers.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #47 - February 19, 2009, 06:46 PM

    "I assume you are talking about secularist Muslims. I don't know how many of those there are, Zaephon - possibly more in Turkey than elsewhere, but they are a minority. As I say, most ordinary Muslims do not believe they have the option of being a 'secularist Muslim'

    It would be great if they did - and I sincerely hope the secularists will win out one day. But they will need to convince most Muslims that Islam should not play any part in governing society as a whole but is only a private matter. As yet they are a long way off."

    That's true, this idea seems to be a Turkish/Balkan/Central Asian idea. Secularist Muslims are pretty close to Cultural Muslims is what I have seen in the past. It isn't common at all to find this group outside areas with "cultural muslims". In fact in the Arab World secularism is often frowned upon, I would assume similar in the South Asian world.

    That's why I think reformation and secularism in Islam are very difficult to implement and unrealistic.



     
     
     

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #48 - February 19, 2009, 06:50 PM

    I dont think you can call them ignorant -(they know & appreciate what the Quran is saying), nor can you call them  extremists.

    They simply don't want to challenge Gods word - in the same way we didn't challenge our parents when we were young, even if we knew they were wrong.  They see God as the ultimate parent, and do not feel they have a right to challenge what God has ordained.

    They are simply following orders, just like German soldiers.


    I don't like that analogy, IsLame - I hate the equation with Nazis - even if it be only the 'foot soldiers'!

    I supported the concept of Shari'ah as an ideal objective that Muslims should strive for - But I certainly never approved of any existing Shari'ah Law or beheadings etc...

    I opposed Saudia Arabia, Iran, Taliban etc... (as do most educated Muslims I know in the UK). In other words I would never have "followed orders".
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #49 - February 19, 2009, 06:53 PM

    Also the more "Shari'ah" is exposed and ordinary Muslims see it for what it is - the harder it will be for them to claim ignorance.

    But there are still many who don't know - or don't want to know - how ugly Shari'ah Law really is.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #50 - February 19, 2009, 07:25 PM

    I dont think you can call them ignorant -(they know & appreciate what the Quran is saying), nor can you call them  extremists.

    They simply don't want to challenge Gods word - in the same way we didn't challenge our parents when we were young, even if we knew they were wrong.  They see God as the ultimate parent, and do not feel they have a right to challenge what God has ordained.

    They are simply following orders, just like German soldiers.

    I don't like that analogy, IsLame - I hate the equation with Nazis - even if it be only the 'foot soldiers'!

    Its was not equating Islam with Nazism, the example used here is used to demonstrate how an abhorrent ideology can be carried out by ordinary men, without meaning that these men necessarily agree with the ideology.  Nor does it mean they are ignorant or extremists. 

    They simply agree with the authority of the person giving the orders.
    I supported the concept of Shari'ah as an ideal objective that Muslims should strive for - But I certainly never approved of any existing Shari'ah Law or beheadings etc...

    I opposed Saudia Arabia, Iran, Taliban etc... (as do most educated Muslims I know in the UK). In other words I would never have "followed orders".

    Also the more "Shari'ah" is exposed and ordinary Muslims see it for what it is - the harder it will be for them to claim ignorance.

    But there are still many who don't know - or don't want to know - how ugly Shari'ah Law really is.

    You may have been different, so was I, and that may explain why we believe what we do today.  However my  experience of other Muslims is very different to yours. 

    Muslims do know what the Shariah stands for, and even if they didn't, they would still stand by it - whatever it said!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #51 - February 19, 2009, 07:34 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    I don't like that analogy, IsLame - I hate the equation with Nazis - even if it be only the 'foot soldiers'!

    I don't see why not. There is some similarity between Islamic ideology and national socialist ideology. People who actively strive for the establishment of Shariah, at the expense of its victims, are as despicable as the Nazis. They also have some common enemies --Western liberal thought, Jews, and anybody who opposes their ideals. I am not willing to equate the average Muslim with the average Nazi supporter, though.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I supported the concept of Shari'ah as an ideal objective that Muslims should strive for - But I certainly never approved of any existing Shari'ah Law or beheadings etc...

    Then you were also a secularist, without really calling yourself one. There are also many secularists in Turkey who believe they are genuine Muslims and that backward fundamentalists do not interpret Islam correctly. So while they do not accept the backward elements of Islam, they are still afraid to let go of their Islamic identity. Sounds familiar to your position? However, these people are quite different from the average Shariah supporter, the kind of people who support and appreciate the injustices of Shariah. From my experience, most Muslims who support Shariah are quite aware of what it stands for.

    Quote from: FinallyFree
    That's why I think reformation and secularism in Islam are very difficult to implement and unrealistic.

    It is indeed very difficult to reform Islam, but imposing secularism is not that difficult. Secularism is, essentially, the destruction of religious institutions --of course that's not the dictionary definition, but when you want to implement secularism this is what you have to do.

    This was successfully implemented in Turkey, abolishing the Caliphate and an entire caste of Islamic clergy. Tunisia and Syria are also quite secular today. Albania was officially declared an atheistic nation under Enver Hoxha. Communism successfully destroyed religious institutions in central Asian republics, and for a short period of time, in Afghanistan. Saddam was a secular tyrant. If not for the failure of Arab nationalism, the Arab world would be quite different today as well. As we can see from all these different examples, suppressing Islam is not impossible. There is no need to be pessimistic. Islam cannot be reformed, but it can be suppressed and eliminated through social progress and secularism.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #52 - February 19, 2009, 07:57 PM


    You may have been different, so was I, and that may explain why we believe what we do today.  However my  experience of other Muslims is very different to yours. 


    Of course Muslims are a mixed bag - just like any group of people. Yes there are those who support extreme views. But there are many who don't. I was no different from them. It would easy for me to say I was 'different' - and imply I was better and distance myself from them - but that simply wouldn't be honest of me. Most of the Muslims I knew could not be described as extremist in any way - and they supported the idea of Shariah just as I did - and neither would they have 'obeyed' any nazi-type orders.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #53 - February 19, 2009, 08:08 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    I supported the concept of Shari'ah as an ideal objective that Muslims should strive for - But I certainly never approved of any existing Shari'ah Law or beheadings etc...

    Then you were also a secularist, without really calling yourself one. There are also many secularists in Turkey who believe they are genuine Muslims and that backward fundamentalists do not interpret Islam correctly. So while they do not accept the backward elements of Islam, they are still afraid to let go of their Islamic identity. Sounds familiar to your position?


    Yes - that is the sort of Muslim I am talking about, Zaephon - though they wouldn't accept the secularist label. Like me - they believed that there was an ideal, but it remained more of a pious dream, while the reality of the so-called Islamic regimes were an anathema.

    most Muslims who support Shariah are quite aware of what it stands for.


    This is where I disagree with you.

    I think most Muslims who support Shari'ah either do it in the way I outlined above or are not fully aware of it.

    Yes there are a great many who are aware of what it means and actively support regimes like Saudi, Taliban or Iran - but I believe they are in a minority - at least amongst educated, moderate Muslims here in the UK.
  • Re: Who Is An Extremist?
     Reply #54 - February 19, 2009, 08:28 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    Yes there are a great many who are aware of what it means and actively support regimes like Saudi, Taliban or Iran - but I believe they are in a minority - at least amongst educated, moderate Muslims here in the UK.

    Since we both lack statistical data, we cannot verify whether they are the minority or the majority. At any rate, I haven't changed my previous statement --that any Muslim who supports Shariah, being aware of its implications, is an extremist and reactionary.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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