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 Topic: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an

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  • Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     OP - February 18, 2009, 05:31 PM
    In my first year at SOAS in 1980 I gave a seminar on "The Collection of the Qur'an" and gave pretty much the orthodox view that over the 22 years that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad it was learnt by heart by the Muslims and written down on papyrus, bone, leather, stones etc... When Muhammad died Abu Bakr collected these. Later, Uthman made them into books. The qur'an we have today is the same uttered by Muhammad bar minor variations brought about by the lack of written vowels markings - but accepted as part of the "Sab'a Ahruf" seven readings.

    In that audience was professor Wansborough who would be my tutor for two years. He believed the Qur'an was only put together in it's present form a couple of generations after Muhammad and was added to, refined and polished by later Muslims.

    I always dismissed this view (and that of Cook and Crone)  - but since losing the need to defend the divine integrity of the Qur'an I can't help thinking that the traditional version of events is doubtful. The oldest Qur'ans we have were written a full 100 years after Muhammad. Not to mention that it seems unlikely that even during the 22 years of Muhammads life there were no mistakes, errors, forgotten parts, mis-remembered parts. It seems even more likely that after his death the urge to enshrine ones own memory/interpretation of Muhammads life in the words he uttered - that were not yet in book form - must have been overwhelming.

  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #1 - February 18, 2009, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 18, 2009, 05:31 PM
    the orthodox view that over the 22 years that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad it was learnt by heart by the Muslims and written down on papyrus, bone, leather, stones etc... When Muhammad died Abu Bakr collected these. Later, Uthman made them into books.

    Is this the official understanding of how the Quran came about?  If so, I find it surpisingly lacking in contradictions & mistakes unless it was later refined?
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  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #2 - February 18, 2009, 06:03 PM
    Hi Hassan,

    I have no doubt that the Quran wasn't divinely inspired but what I find more interesting in your post is how did it feel when you disagreed with your tutor on this issue, and how did you justify that.

    I mean you went to university to learn from these guys.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #3 - February 18, 2009, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 18, 2009, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 18, 2009, 05:31 PM
    the orthodox view that over the 22 years that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad it was learnt by heart by the Muslims and written down on papyrus, bone, leather, stones etc... When Muhammad died Abu Bakr collected these. Later, Uthman made them into books.

    Is this the official understanding of how the Quran came about?  If so, I find it surpisingly lacking in contradictions & mistakes unless it was later refined?


    That's the traditional version of events.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #4 - February 18, 2009, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on February 18, 2009, 06:03 PM
    Hi Hassan,

    I have no doubt that the Quran wasn't divinely inspired but what I find more interesting in your post is how did it feel when you disagreed with your tutor on this issue, and how did you justify that.

    I mean you went to university to learn from these guys.


    This was Wansboroughs own theory and was contrary to what most orientalists had said. These particular views of his were certainly not on the curriculum. I only once talked to him about his views when I told him I had enjoyed reading his book but disagreed with his conclusions. He had absolutely no problem about that and like all the professors at SOAS (many of whom held widely different views from each other)  they encouraged critical thinking and differing views. I would find it odd if that was not the case.

    btw we had Muslim professors too - publishing books on how wonderful the Qur'an is.



  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #5 - February 18, 2009, 08:40 PM
    ps - I still think Wansborough was off the mark and the Qur'an we have is largely what Muhammad uttered, but I think it is reasonable suggest that it is not exactly the same and there may be some later additions, changes and refinement.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #6 - February 18, 2009, 09:54 PM
    Hassan, have you ever come across hadiths and athaars about some missing verses or so?

    There are plenty. Actually "Al-Masahef," a book written by Abudawood Al-Sajistani (the famous hadith author), is full of these hadiths.


    Also, have you heard about the early Quran being written with no "pointing" (dots below or above letters) and no "harakat" (vocalized diacritics)?


    This leaves me with many doubts that it's 100% what Mu uttered.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #7 - February 18, 2009, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on February 18, 2009, 09:54 PM
    Hassan, have you ever come across hadiths and athaars about some missing verses or so?

    There are plenty. Actually "Al-Masahef," a book written by Abudawood Al-Sajistani (the famous hadith author), is full of these hadiths.


    Also, have you heard about the early Quran being written with no "pointing" (dots below or above letters) and no "harakat" (vocalized diacritics)?


    This leaves me with many doubts that it's 100% what Mu uttered.


    Yes, I have heard those things (though I don't know the book you mention) and I have little doubt that the Qur'an we have is not 100% what Muhammad uttered - but how different is the question.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #8 - February 18, 2009, 10:29 PM
    the caliphs usman and umar allegedly burnt many different qurans that they declared "false"... this becomes a strong theological ground for debating over the "purity" of the word of "god" and also a rational argument against the quran's exact origin.

    i have hear that wansborough has been refuted by a lot of credible scholars... but that's hearsay on my part.
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

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  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #9 - February 18, 2009, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: SalahuddinR on February 18, 2009, 10:29 PM
    the caliphs usman and umar allegedly burnt many different qurans that they declared "false"... this becomes a strong theological ground for debating over the "purity" of the word of "god" and also a rational argument against the quran's exact origin.

    i have hear that wansborough has been refuted by a lot of credible scholars... but that's hearsay on my part.


    Well his claims lacked strong evidence to back them up. He compared the Qur'an to Greek oral poetry - for example - which was refined and improved on over time.

    I doubt many Muslims have read his book - it is a very difficult book to read and has so much latin and greek it is hard to follow.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #10 - February 18, 2009, 11:03 PM
    I've just read the reviews on Amazon for his book.

    Here's the link if anyone's interested.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quranic-Studies-Sources-Scriptural-Interpretation/dp/1591022010

    It seems another guy Nasr Abu Zaid wrote a similar book.

    What do you know about him?

  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #11 - February 18, 2009, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on February 18, 2009, 11:03 PM
    It seems another guy Nasr Abu Zaid wrote a similar book.

    What do you know about him?

    =============

    If you mean AbuZaid, he's a controversial Quranic Egyptian scholar who has suffered a lot and been accused of kufr, exiled too.

    He calls for a new interpretation of Quran, among the 1st scholars who called for "Quranic Hermeneutics."


    Read more if you wish,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #12 - February 19, 2009, 08:33 AM
    Haha, check this out. I got this book.

    Variant Readings of the Qur'an: A Critical Study of their Historic and Linguistic Origins
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #13 - February 19, 2009, 09:00 AM
    Quote from: SalahuddinR on February 18, 2009, 10:29 PM
    the caliphs usman and umar allegedly burnt many different qurans that they declared "false"... this becomes a strong theological ground for debating over the "purity" of the word of "god" and also a rational argument against the quran's exact origin.


    I hadn't heard about Umar burning copies of the Quran.

    It was Umar who suggested to Abu Bakr that the revelations be compiled in one book. This was done by Za'id. And completed in the reign of Umar.

    But under Uthman, the Quran was revised and he requested all original versions now distributed around the empire be brought back and burnt.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #14 - February 19, 2009, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on February 18, 2009, 11:03 PM
    It seems another guy Nasr Abu Zaid wrote a similar book.


    Not heard of him. Do you mean he came to the same conclusions as Wansborough?
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #15 - February 19, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 18, 2009, 08:40 PM
    ps - I still think Wansborough was off the mark and the Qur'an we have is largely what Muhammad uttered, but I think it is reasonable suggest that it is not exactly the same and there may be some later additions, changes and refinement.

    I have no evidence to back this up but I think it very likely that you're right. Given how seriously his utterances were regarded by early Muslims I doubt they'd be slack about remembering and recording them accurately. A hundred years is not a long time and although some cross checking would be necessary before doing a thorough compilation there's no real reason to assume that major changes would have occurred.

    Of course without recordings of what he did say there is no way of knowing how much, if anything, was altered. An accuracy of 100% is unlikely but 95% wouldn't be unreasonable. 99% is possible although less likely.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #16 - February 19, 2009, 11:17 PM
    Michael Cook had some interesting views on the Qur'an being 'out of the picture' for a while, considering that people seemingly forgot you were supposed to lash fornicators, and started stoning them to death instead. Then, obviously, constructing fake ahadith and backdating them to Muhammad to imbue them with authenticity.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #17 - February 20, 2009, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on February 19, 2009, 11:17 PM
    Michael Cook had some interesting views on the Qur'an being 'out of the picture' for a while, considering that people seemingly forgot you were supposed to lash fornicators, and started stoning them to death instead. Then, obviously, constructing fake ahadith and backdating them to Muhammad to imbue them with authenticity.

    No... The verses on Ar-Rajm (stoning) were lost. People remember where they were supposed to be, but the only person who remembered them was killed, and the verses were lost. Adulterers get stoned, unmarried fornicators get whipped. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #18 - February 20, 2009, 12:44 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 12:21 AM
    No... The verses on Ar-Rajm (stoning) were lost.


    I find that such an unlikely story.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #19 - February 20, 2009, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 20, 2009, 12:44 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 12:21 AM
    No... The verses on Ar-Rajm (stoning) were lost.


    I find that such an unlikely story.

    Yeah? It's in the hadith, I'll look for it (later). I seen it to be a weakness, that the Qur'an is not as protected as muslims would think it is, a whole verse was lost because the only person who remembered it right was killed. *shrug*
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #20 - February 20, 2009, 01:20 AM
    I agree with awais, Hassan, about the stoning and Umar.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #21 - February 20, 2009, 01:35 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 20, 2009, 12:44 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 12:21 AM
    No... The verses on Ar-Rajm (stoning) were lost.


    I find that such an unlikely story.

    Yeah? It's in the hadith, I'll look for it (later). I seen it to be a weakness, that the Qur'an is not as protected as muslims would think it is, a whole verse was lost because the only person who remembered it right was killed. *shrug*


    Oh I know the hadith and it's not that I don't think verses could have been forgotten or changed (after all that's the point of this thread) it's just that I find this particular story sounds weird.

    If a verse was forgotten, then I would expect it to be forgotten completely. How come people still remembered to stone adulterers and yet forgot the verse? I mean the first thing someone would say when being dragged out to be stoned is where's the verse for this? If they remember it was there, you'd think at least one person would pipe up with the verses (invented or not).

    I could be wrong, but this story always sounded strange to me.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #22 - February 20, 2009, 01:41 AM
    @ Hassan,

    the verse exists, Umar and many others knew it, it's mentioned in many books, but Umar refused to add it to the Noble Quran.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #23 - February 20, 2009, 05:52 AM
    Most city Arabs at the time probably hated the stoning and wished for it to go away. Aisha herself was under the threat of being called up for stoning once the protection afforded to her by muhammad went away after his death.

    Only the thug Umar bin Khattab wanted to keep the verse but he was overruled.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #24 - February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM
    Quote from: Baal on February 20, 2009, 05:52 AM
    Most city Arabs at the time probably hated the stoning and wished for it to go away. Aisha herself was under the threat of being called up for stoning once the protection afforded to her by muhammad went away after his death.

    Only the thug Umar bin Khattab wanted to keep the verse but he was overruled.



    Prove it.

    Quote from: Forum Rules
    1/ Discussion of Islamic beliefs.

    ...If you are going to state that something is Islamic you must be prepared to back your statements by quoting authorities and/or texts.

    If you cannot back your statements with a reputable source and your statements are deemed inflammatory you will be given a "smite".

    In other words, make sure you know what you are talking about and how to phrase it in the most reasonable fashion.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #25 - February 20, 2009, 08:26 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM
    Quote from: Baal on February 20, 2009, 05:52 AM
    Most city Arabs at the time probably hated the stoning and wished for it to go away. Aisha herself was under the threat of being called up for stoning once the protection afforded to her by muhammad went away after his death.

    Only the thug Umar bin Khattab wanted to keep the verse but he was overruled.



    Prove it.

    Quote from: Forum Rules
    1/ Discussion of Islamic beliefs.

    ...If you are going to state that something is Islamic you must be prepared to back your statements by quoting authorities and/or texts.

    If you cannot back your statements with a reputable source and your statements are deemed inflammatory you will be given a "smite".

    In other words, make sure you know what you are talking about and how to phrase it in the most reasonable fashion.



    Steady on Awais. I have to say that I agree somewhat with Baal on this. Umar was a quite aggressive and harsh character according to hadiths. I remember reading about how he even contradicted the Qur'an for example on the matter of the portion of the booty (a 5th I think) given to Muslim fighters simply saying that the state needed it now and kept it all for the Baytul-Maal.

    The hadiths about stoning come from him - right? Hmmmmm....

    Wasn't it also Umar who made some extra rules about women Tarawih at home? Even Shaytan walked on the other side of the road when he saw him coming Wink lol
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #26 - February 20, 2009, 08:39 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 20, 2009, 08:26 AM
    Even Shaytan walked on the other side of the road when he saw him coming Wink lol

    I used to think "Man, Umar's one bad mutha fucka" Cheesy

    You think Umar is badder than Muhammad? Shaytan thought he could choke Mo while he was praying, but he don't even wanna think about fuckin' wit Umar! Cheesy
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #27 - February 20, 2009, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: awais on February 20, 2009, 08:39 AM
    I used to think "Man, Umar's one bad mutha fucka" Cheesy


    As you probably know, he's the darling of the Salafis.

    Show me 10 Salafis and I will show you at least one called Umar or they will have a son called Umar.

    Of course the Shi'ah hate him and his name is cursed from the pulpit on Fridays on a regular basis - him and Aisha.
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #28 - February 20, 2009, 05:20 PM
    Why would they stone Aisha? She never cheated on him.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Musings on Origins of the Qur'an
     Reply #29 - February 20, 2009, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 20, 2009, 05:20 PM
    Why would they stone Aisha? She never cheated on him.


    There was an incident, which is referred to in the Qur'an when she stayed behind while out on a caravan because she was looking for a bracelet she lost - a young man brought her back to the main caravan - tongues started wagging - the Qur'an absloves her of course and I remember reading Zamakhsharis say something like:

    "I have never see Allah get so angry as he got in this incident, cursing and threatening those who were gossiping"

    Muhammad must have been really pissed LOL  grin12

    I don't remember the verses off hand I will look it up later for you.
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