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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam is True After All

 (Read 7390 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam is True After All
     OP - February 22, 2009, 12:12 AM

  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #1 - February 22, 2009, 05:31 AM

    God has deliberately made these mistakes to test our faith in him Smiley

    Great video Wink
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #2 - February 22, 2009, 07:31 AM

    damn! Nizar beat me to my answer...so I will go with...

    Come on Hassan...your just being nitpicky with the details...no religion on earth can stand that sort of scrutiny. I think many religions are handed to us on a plate...along with a pair of rose colored glasses and dunce cap.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #3 - February 22, 2009, 07:45 AM

    damn! Nizar beat me to my answer...so I will go with...

    Come on Hassan...your just being nitpicky with the details...no religion on earth can stand that sort of scrutiny. I think many religions are handed to us on a plate...along with a pair of rose colored glasses and dunce cap.


    HAHA Cheesy

    If I were you I would stick to the argument that the way God wrote this verse is correct and its the Arabic grammar that is wrong, just like the Argument that science is false and creationism is true Tongue
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #4 - February 22, 2009, 08:48 AM

    Nuf respect Hass. I love your style and I can't say it enough times but you sound like a 70's Jackanory presenter. Quality
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #5 - February 22, 2009, 04:02 PM

    Great video, I've definitely learnt many things from you Hassan Smiley Keep it up!
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #6 - February 22, 2009, 04:54 PM

    Nuf respect Hass. I love your style and I can't say it enough times but you sound like a 70's Jackanory presenter. Quality

    I liked it too, I actually enjoy watching your videos because they summarise everything I would like to say in such a simplistic fashion.  I wish there was a way of honestly judging the impact they have on Muslims when they watch them - as a Muslim each video would have preyed on every single doubt I had back then.

    You must have covered all bases with your videos by now?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #7 - February 22, 2009, 06:39 PM

    That was a pretty decent video, but I have a few questions to ask you:

    1) How do you deal with the Muslim response of: "you can't judge or compare Quranic Arabic to modern/classical Arabic because it's from Allah and unique"? I find this statement is really like a child putting fingers in their ears and shouting.

    2) What do you think of Muslim scholars (usually non native Arabic speakers) who try and use Quranic Arabic as spoken Arabic to try and give it justification?

    The above two Muslim behaivours are impossible to deal with, as they are putting up an impenetrable wall and safe guarding their ignorance.

    3) You mentioned some beautiful verses in the Quran, which verses are they? As a Muslim, I never heard a sura or verse I liked at all (and I understood the Quran like any other Arabic speaker-I can no longer speak the language or understand it), the only verses I liked in that sense were the ones that were easy to memorise, IE the verses that were repetitive, had been seen elsewhere in a differant form or simple. This was because I was in a madrassah at the time and I had to learn the Quran by heart, therefore easy verses were very likeable.

    Anyway, aside from that nice video, hopefully it convinces a few Muslims out there.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #8 - February 23, 2009, 10:24 AM

    FinallyFree, for the first two tell them they can continue putting their fingers in their ears and shouting. It is no use talking to the ignorant.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #9 - March 11, 2009, 02:53 PM

    @ Hassan,

    In 1:46 you said:

    Quote
    Arabic grammar was built on the Quran



    Can you just explain this further, after that I will discuss your criticism of (Sabe2oon).


    Pls.  Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #10 - March 11, 2009, 06:09 PM

    @ Hassan,

    In 1:46 you said:

    Quote
    Arabic grammar was built on the Quran



    Can you just explain this further, after that I will discuss your criticism of (Sabe2oon).


    Pls.  Smiley


    Before the Qur'an there was no agreed upon written rules of grammar. Although all spoken languages evolve rules that are known instinctively they obviously lack a detailed written form with explanations of the exceptions and variations.

    It was the Qur'an - and the unified community it created - that led to an agreed upon and universal Arabic language and codified rules of Grammar.

    Pre-Islamic poetry and examples of bedouin language, regional variations etc... were also used, but the Qur'an was central to this process and any rules they came up with that seemed to be at odds with anything in the Qur'an, they made sure that they found explanations for them.

    So basically any mistake is explained away in one way or another.

    I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the verse in question, Emerald.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #11 - March 12, 2009, 12:09 AM

    I've thoroughly investigated numerous grammatical errors in Quran, the thing that confused me was the hypothesis of grammar being based on Quran, as you mentioned,

    cuz simply, if grammar and its rules are derived from Quran, why bother finding those erros in Quran?

    Yet, what got me thinking more to re-consider this process is those prominent Jahilis, like Abu Jahl and Al-Walid who never questioned these things..Why you think they never did? could it be that the earlier versions of Quran were errors-free, and later been changed?.


    Good number of Arab atheists and former Muslims stopped criticizing the Quran grammatically, for the above reasons, and also cuz this very issue is very twistable, if you will, scholars can easy justify mistakes, just like Al-Razi, and Sibawaih et al.


    Anyway, I got a large list of these errors, along with the counter-arguments put by Muslims.



    The example you raised is really good, here's the justification I have beside tafsirs;

      لو كان في الجملة اسم موصول واحد لحق لك أن تنكر ذلك ، لكن لا يلزم للاسم الموصول الثاني أن يكون تابعا لإنَّ. فالواو هنا استئنافية من باب إضافة الجُملة للجملة ، وليست عطفا على الجملة الأولى.

    لذلك رُفِعَ ( والصابئون ) للإستئناف ( اسم مبتدأ ) وخبره محذوف تقديره والصابئون كذلك أى فى حكمهم. والفائدة من عدم عطفهم على مَن قبلهم هو أن الصابئين أشد الفرق المذكورين فى هذه الآية ضلالاً ، فكأنه قيل: كل هؤلاء الفرق إن آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات قَبِلَ اللهُ تَوْبتهم وأزال ذنبهم ، حتى الصابئون فإنهم إن آمنوا كانوا أيضاً كذلك.

    و هذا التعبير ليس غريبا في اللغة العربية، بل هو مستعمل فيها كقول بشر بن أبي خازم الأسدي الذي قال  :

    إذا جزت نواصي آل بدر فأدوها وأسرى في الوثاق *** وإلا فاعلموا أنــا وأنـتم بغـاة ، ما بقـينا في شـقاق

    والشاهد في البيت الثاني ، حيث ( أن ) حرف مشبه بالفعل، ( نا ) اسمها في محل نصب، و( أنتم ) الواو عاطفة وأنتم ضمير منفصل في محل رفع مبتدأ، وبغاة خبر أن ( أو أنتم ) مرفوع، والخبر الثاني محذوف، وكان يمكن أن يقول فاعلموا أنا بغاة وأنتم بغاة، لكنه عطف مع التقديم وحذف الخبر ، تنبيها على أن المخاطبين أكثر اتصافا بالبغي من قومه هو ، فقدم ذكرهم قبل إتمام الخبر لئلا يدخل قومه في البغي ــ وهم الأقل فيه ــ قبل الآخرين

    ونظيره أيضا الشاهد المشهور لضابئ بن الحارث البرجمي  :

    فمن يك أمسى في المدينة رحله ***  فإني وقـيار بها لغريب

    وقيار هو جمله ، معطوف على اسم إن منصوب بها

    أراد ان يقول : إني بها لغريب ، وقيار كذلك غريب

    ومثله أيضا قول قيس بن الخطيم: نحن بما عندنا وأنت بما عندك راضِ والرأي مختلف

    وقيل فيه أيضاً: إنَّ لفظ إنَّ ينصب المبتدأ لفظا ويبقى مرفوعا محلا، فيصح لغة أن تكون ( والصابئون ) معطوفة على محل اسم إن سواء كان ذلك قبل مجيء الخبر أو بعده ، أو هي معطوفة على المضمر في ( هادوا ).


    Twists BS, the only valid point is citing some Pre-Islamic poems that show similar structure.

    Notice that they always give several opinions, which gives me the feeling that it's all BS and not coherent.



    I like also like the error in 4/162:

    لَكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْـزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْـزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلاةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ أُولَئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا



    Oh, I remembered,

    have you ever heard about a book called (Al-Masahef, Al-Ma9a7ef) by Abu Dawood Al-Sajistani , da famous muhaddeth?

    It's loaded with horrible facts about Quran, and according to the book, Aisha admitted that Othman's version had many linguistic errors.




    You know what Hassan, any sane human being would outright notice how this (Sabe2oon) verse is awkward and contains a fundamental structure flaw, regardless of all justifications, etc.

    Dah, I'm tired...


    Let me know more about your stance. Smiley   

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #12 - March 12, 2009, 07:50 AM

    I've thoroughly investigated numerous grammatical errors in Quran, the thing that confused me was the hypothesis of grammar being based on Quran, as you mentioned,

    cuz simply, if grammar and its rules are derived from Quran, why bother finding those erros in Quran?

    Yet, what got me thinking more to re-consider this process is those prominent Jahilis, like Abu Jahl and Al-Walid who never questioned these things..Why you think they never did? could it be that the earlier versions of Quran were errors-free, and later been changed?.


    Good number of Arab atheists and former Muslims stopped criticizing the Quran grammatically, for the above reasons, and also cuz this very issue is very twistable, if you will, scholars can easy justify mistakes, just like Al-Razi, and Sibawaih et al.


    Anyway, I got a large list of these errors, along with the counter-arguments put by Muslims.



    The example you raised is really good, here's the justification I have beside tafsirs;

      لو كان في الجملة اسم موصول واحد لحق لك أن تنكر ذلك ، لكن لا يلزم للاسم الموصول الثاني أن يكون تابعا لإنَّ. فالواو هنا استئنافية من باب إضافة الجُملة للجملة ، وليست عطفا على الجملة الأولى.

    لذلك رُفِعَ ( والصابئون ) للإستئناف ( اسم مبتدأ ) وخبره محذوف تقديره والصابئون كذلك أى فى حكمهم. والفائدة من عدم عطفهم على مَن قبلهم هو أن الصابئين أشد الفرق المذكورين فى هذه الآية ضلالاً ، فكأنه قيل: كل هؤلاء الفرق إن آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات قَبِلَ اللهُ تَوْبتهم وأزال ذنبهم ، حتى الصابئون فإنهم إن آمنوا كانوا أيضاً كذلك.

    و هذا التعبير ليس غريبا في اللغة العربية، بل هو مستعمل فيها كقول بشر بن أبي خازم الأسدي الذي قال  :

    إذا جزت نواصي آل بدر فأدوها وأسرى في الوثاق *** وإلا فاعلموا أنــا وأنـتم بغـاة ، ما بقـينا في شـقاق

    والشاهد في البيت الثاني ، حيث ( أن ) حرف مشبه بالفعل، ( نا ) اسمها في محل نصب، و( أنتم ) الواو عاطفة وأنتم ضمير منفصل في محل رفع مبتدأ، وبغاة خبر أن ( أو أنتم ) مرفوع، والخبر الثاني محذوف، وكان يمكن أن يقول فاعلموا أنا بغاة وأنتم بغاة، لكنه عطف مع التقديم وحذف الخبر ، تنبيها على أن المخاطبين أكثر اتصافا بالبغي من قومه هو ، فقدم ذكرهم قبل إتمام الخبر لئلا يدخل قومه في البغي ــ وهم الأقل فيه ــ قبل الآخرين

    ونظيره أيضا الشاهد المشهور لضابئ بن الحارث البرجمي  :

    فمن يك أمسى في المدينة رحله ***  فإني وقـيار بها لغريب

    وقيار هو جمله ، معطوف على اسم إن منصوب بها

    أراد ان يقول : إني بها لغريب ، وقيار كذلك غريب

    ومثله أيضا قول قيس بن الخطيم: نحن بما عندنا وأنت بما عندك راضِ والرأي مختلف

    وقيل فيه أيضاً: إنَّ لفظ إنَّ ينصب المبتدأ لفظا ويبقى مرفوعا محلا، فيصح لغة أن تكون ( والصابئون ) معطوفة على محل اسم إن سواء كان ذلك قبل مجيء الخبر أو بعده ، أو هي معطوفة على المضمر في ( هادوا ).


    Twists BS, the only valid point is citing some Pre-Islamic poems that show similar structure.

    Notice that they always give several opinions, which gives me the feeling that it's all BS and not coherent.



    I like also like the error in 4/162:

    لَكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْـزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْـزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلاةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ أُولَئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا



    Oh, I remembered,

    have you ever heard about a book called (Al-Masahef, Al-Ma9a7ef) by Abu Dawood Al-Sajistani , da famous muhaddeth?

    It's loaded with horrible facts about Quran, and according to the book, Aisha admitted that Othman's version had many linguistic errors.




    You know what Hassan, any sane human being would outright notice how this (Sabe2oon) verse is awkward and contains a fundamental structure flaw, regardless of all justifications, etc.

    Dah, I'm tired...


    Let me know more about your stance. Smiley   


    I also agree that there is simply no point in attacking the grammar of the Qur'an, as it is not a battle that can be proven. But by the same token a Muslim cannot use 'perfect' grammar as a sign of it being a miracle since that too is not something that can be tested objectively as the rules and explanations were constructed after the Qur'an (and with upholding it's miraculous nature in mind)

    Re pre-Islamic poetry being cited, this was done all the time - it was the way to 'prove' that some law or explanation was true, but just like some hadith there is a big question over whether they were fabricated in order to prove a point.

    I haven't heard of the book - will check it out.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #13 - March 12, 2009, 08:07 AM

    Hey. You guys are posting Arabic. How did you get that to work? It never worked before when I tested it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #14 - March 12, 2009, 10:29 AM

    @ Os.

    I noticed that it's been working for about a month now, dunno how;

    when i saw FinallyFree's siggy containing Arabic, remember?



    @ Hass, fair enough actually, I'll get back to this if I have anything to add.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #15 - March 12, 2009, 02:32 PM

    The explanations you posted for Sabi'oon and that I have seen elsewhere all look terribly contrived to me - especially when you add the fact that two almost identical sentences are written in the accusative (nasb).

    To me it is a mistake. Muhammad simply got his grammar mixed up - or forgot that he had already come out with two other almost identical verses using the usual case-ending.

    btw did you notice I used that verse you posted a while ago as I thought it was a great example of a muddled construction  Afro

  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #16 - March 12, 2009, 02:52 PM

    Mistake, no doubt... and as you said, this clearly debunk the idea of wondrous Quran and it's eloquence.

    I noticed the verse used, yes....good that you raised it there too,  Afro


    anyone there argued? 

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #17 - March 12, 2009, 05:11 PM

    anyone there argued? 


    Hardly anyone - which I think speaks volumes!

    One person posted a link to something he said would explain it, but it was simply quotes from Sibawayh and Khalil saying the same thing that Zamakhshari said.

    Apart from that just a couple of people of accused me of being wrong - with no further explanation and a couple of people accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about, but not expanding on it.

  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #18 - March 12, 2009, 06:41 PM

    aha, what about the 2nd verse in the vid. no one?

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #19 - March 12, 2009, 07:11 PM

    a couple of people of accused me of being wrong - with no further explanation and a couple of people accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about, but not expanding on it.

    To be honest, back when I followed Islam this is exactly what I would have done as well. I recall that I used to ignore and then forget about the awkward stuff if I couldn't explain it away.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #20 - March 12, 2009, 07:25 PM

    a couple of people of accused me of being wrong - with no further explanation and a couple of people accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about, but not expanding on it.

    To be honest, back when I followed Islam this is exactly what I would have done as well. I recall that I used to ignore and then forget about the awkward stuff if I couldn't explain it away.


    This is a usual behavior from theists. If they cant explain something, or see something thats complitly contradicting to their beloved dogma they just ignore it.

    And if you take this into consideration when dealing with fundies you have to think to yourself "what the hell? i can say what i want, this guys wont listen anyway!"

    Thank God science is not like that.

    "Well i have a theory, and i deeply believe this theory is true."

    "Well, i have this evidence that says your theory is wrong!"

    "What evidence?!"

    "THIS evidence!"

    "I dont see anything. So my Theory is true... Hooray for science!"

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #21 - March 12, 2009, 09:09 PM

    That's why fundies claiming that their religion represents the pinnacle of rationality, and is supported by science, is a crock anyway. It also explains why it's usually to use this angle to try and persuade theists that their religion is wrong.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #22 - March 12, 2009, 09:15 PM

    aha, what about the 2nd verse in the vid. no one?


    One person said it was perfectly clear to him.

    Surprisingly one Muslim admitted it wasn't very clear.

    I think most comments are not very significant. There are many more who watch, listen and then go away and think without saying anything.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #23 - March 12, 2009, 09:19 PM

    a couple of people of accused me of being wrong - with no further explanation and a couple of people accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about, but not expanding on it.

    To be honest, back when I followed Islam this is exactly what I would have done as well. I recall that I used to ignore and then forget about the awkward stuff if I couldn't explain it away.


    Most Muslims push stuff like that away and out of mind. Recently I was basically told on that forum that athiestofpeace mentioned that I shouldn't discuss difficult questions, but only talk about the nice things in Islam.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #24 - March 12, 2009, 10:30 PM

    Ahhh, the whole "don't think" directive. Nice. Doesn't stultify people at all, honest. No wonder muslims ended up ripe for conquest when they handed all power of thought over to the ulema.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #25 - March 13, 2009, 09:53 PM

    This is a usual behavior from theists. If they cant explain something, or see something thats complitly contradicting to their beloved dogma they just ignore it.

    And if you take this into consideration when dealing with fundies you have to think to yourself "what the hell? i can say what i want, this guys wont listen anyway!"

    They probably put it down to their lack of knowledge or bad interpretation. I used to do that. My dad will come up with any excuse he can think of to justify wrongful actions. Leaving faith is not seen as an option, there must be another answer.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #26 - March 18, 2009, 07:41 PM

    Another thing I've happed upon and would like the Arabic-speaking people here to elucidate:

    And verily! In the cattle, there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies. [16:66]

    Someone brought to my attention that the word 'butunihi' (translated as their bellies) comes in two forms and depends on its place in a sentence. In this case it should actually read 'butuniha'. Is this true? I ask because those same words occur again in 23:21 with the same order and grammar... but this time using the word 'butuniha'.

    And Verily! In the cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies. [23:21]


    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #27 - March 18, 2009, 07:44 PM

    In their bellies???  Bile juice, anyone?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #28 - March 18, 2009, 09:05 PM

    "Taurine, or 2-aminoethanesulfonic acid, is an organic acid. It is also a major constituent of bile and can be found in the lower intestine and in small amounts in the tissues of many animals "

    "Taurine is named after the Latin taurus, which means bull or ox, as it was first isolated from ox bile in 1827 by German scientists Friedrich Tiedemann and Leopold Gmelin"

    "Taurine is used as a functional food in many energy drinks and energy products"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine

    Allah knows best.

    Either that or the guy who wrote the Quran didn't know that the udder wasn't part of the belly.

    BHuh?B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Islam is True After All
     Reply #29 - March 18, 2009, 09:46 PM

    Another thing I've happed upon and would like the Arabic-speaking people here to elucidate:

    And verily! In the cattle, there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies. [16:66]

    Someone brought to my attention that the word 'butunihi' (translated as their bellies) comes in two forms and depends on its place in a sentence. In this case it should actually read 'butuniha'. Is this true? I ask because those same words occur again in 23:21 with the same order and grammar... but this time using the word 'butuniha'.

    And Verily! In the cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies. [23:21]


    Yes, you're right it should be "Butoonihaa" since An'aam is feminine being the plural of Na'am.

    And again - like Saabi'oon - it is written correctly elsewhere (23:21).

    But I'm sure if I checked the tafseers (but I can't be bothered) they would come up with a flimsy concocted explanation - it's such a load of bollocks - those with faith will always find some reason to hang on to their faith.
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