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 Topic: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.

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  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #300 - July 26, 2013, 11:01 PM

    The quran always and invariably describes the universe in accordance with the limited understandings of an ignorant desert dweller and never from the perspective of a massively intelligent and informed creator.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #301 - July 26, 2013, 11:44 PM

     If you were an ignorant desert dweller who believed in demons and angels and you happened to see a comet or an asteroid in the night sky, you might say, "Hey look! God is throwing stars at demons to keep them from hearing the angels!"

    If you saw the moon seeming to shrink from your perspective, you might say something silly like, "Oh cool! The moon is getting smaller until it looks like an old date stalk!"

    If you saw the sun disappearing every day and you had no idea what had happened, you might say, "Awesome! The sun runs to a resting place for it."

    If you saw the moon in the sky after the sun, you might say, "By the sun and it's brightness. And by the moon as it follows it." Then when you noticed that the moon never "catches up" with the sun, you might go on to say something stupid like "It is not befitting for the moon to catch up with the sun."

    If you were the all informed, most intelligent creator of the universe (or even just a competent 8th grader) you would never say such things.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #302 - July 27, 2013, 07:56 AM

    AlwaysSmilin, we actually have some scholars on this site helping us to learn about the true religion. It may be a bit more on your level.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24596.msg698022#msg698022

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #303 - July 29, 2013, 06:32 PM

    [Saffat 37:6] We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with stars as ornaments.

    [Saffat 37:7] And to protect it from every rebellious devil.

    [Saffat 37:8] They cannot listen to the speech of those on higher elevations and they are targeted from every side.

    [Saffat 37:9] To make them flee, and for them is a never-ending punishment.

    [Saffat 37:10] Except one who sometimes steals a part, so a blazing flame goes after him.


    The word "Kawkab" doesn't directly mean star. It can mean lamp. It's kinda vague. Even if we accept that it's stars, then there is no problem because these particular 'stars' could have originated in the first heaven. Stars can move:

    http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q181.html

    http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=378

    Between us and the first heaven is a barrier. This universe is within the barrier, and we all know that the universe is big. I can go into this subject but you guys are clever.

    So summaries, it's a matter of faith. If there is a God and islam is right, then this is acceptable. If not...
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #304 - July 29, 2013, 06:32 PM

    Even if we assume for a moment that AlwaysSmilin is right and this is a "vague" portion of the Qu'ran that doesn't imply that the sun and moon orbit the Earth, this verse never really jived with me for other reasons. What about eclipses--aren't those examples of when one "catches up" to the other? Or, if it's referring to the concept of night and day--what about those phases of the lunar cycle when the moon is present and visible during the day?

    Quote
    What about eclipses--aren't those examples of when one "catches up" to the other?

    The Quran says: "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon". If it was refering to the eclipse then there shouldn't be an eclipse(It sounds like I think the quran governs the universe Smiley). I personally think it's talking about not directly colliding.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #305 - July 29, 2013, 06:32 PM

    Well if it's so vague then it is not saying anything so what is the point of it? If it does not contradict the wrong beliefs of the time then it reinforces them. So why is God reinforcing wrong beliefs?

    If the author intended it to mean that the moon revolves around the earth but the sun does not then it would not make any sense because it then says that the night cannot outstrip the day

    The verse I was talking about is:
    "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40)."
    Saying something 'catches up' is very vague. The part I used was:
    "Kullun fi fallak" means "each in their own orbit". If the quran is talking about the night and day and the sun and moon, then the quran is wrong because the night and day are in one orbit. If it's not night, then it's day and if it's not day, then it's night. The day and night are only on earth.  That's why scholars say 'this verse refers to the earth, moon and sun having their own orbits'.

    Ok here is another ridiculous scientific inaccuracy:

    To Noah:http://quran.com/11/40

    How are you going to fit all land animals on a single ship? There are millions of animal species. Watch this:



    The quran doesn't claim that it was in any specific year. This could have been millions of years ago. We don't know exactly how many animals there are at that time.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #306 - July 29, 2013, 06:45 PM


    If you saw the sun disappearing every day and you had no idea what had happened, you might say, "Awesome! The sun runs to a resting place for it."

    I keep hearing this. It's kind of a Good 'scientific error in the quran'. When I first heard it, I was in doubt for weeks. Then I watched "Quran & bible in the Light of Science", where Dr William Campbell attempts to prove Quran has scientific errors, Dr Zakir Naik refutes his attempts in the following manner:
    Quote
    Dr. William Campbell raised a point regarding Surah Kahf Chapter No.18, Verse No.86, that… ‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’ And Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic. So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’

    So Allah (swt) is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain. If I make a statement that… ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ And you say… ‘Oh Zakir said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5. I did not say. I am telling…‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ I am not wrong - The student is wrong. There are various ways to try and analyze this verse. One is this way - according to Muhammad Asad, that 'wajada' means… ‘It appeared to’… ‘It appeared to Zulqarnain.’

    Point no.2 - Even if Dr. William Campbell says… ‘No No, the basic assumption is too much - It is not… ‘Appeared to’… it is actually this.’ Let us analyze it further. The Qur'anic verse says… the Sun set in murky water.’ Now we know, when we use these words, like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ - does the sunrise? Scientifically, sun does not rise - neither does the sunset. We know scientifically, that the sun does not set at all. It is the rotation of the earth, which gives rise to sunrise and sunset. But yet you read in the everyday papers mentioning, sunrise at 6 a.m. sun sets at 7.00 p.m. Oh! The newspapers are wrong – Unscientific!’

    If I use the word ‘Disaster’, Oh! There is a disaster’ – ‘Disaster’ means there is some calamity which has taken place. Literally, ‘disaster’ means ‘an evil star.’ So when I say… ‘This disaster’ every one knows what I mean is ‘a calamity’, not about the evil star.’ Dr. William Campbell and I know, when a person who is mad, we call him a lunatic - Yes or no? At least I do, and I believe Dr. William Campbell also will be doing that.

    We call a person ‘a lunatic’ – He is ‘mad.’ What is the meaning of ‘lunatic’? It means… ‘struck by the moon’ - But that is how the language has evolved. Similarly sun rise, is actually, it is just a usage of words. And Allah has given the guidance for the human beings also - He uses so, that we understand. So it is just ‘sunset’ - Not that it is actually setting - Not that sun is actually rising. So this explanation clearly gives us a clear picture, that the Verse of the Qur’an of Surah Kahf, Chapter.18, Verse No 86, is not in contradiction with established science - That is the way how people speak.

    It takes long to quote but it was worth it.
    Quote
    If you saw the moon seeming to shrink from your perspective, you might say something silly like, "Oh cool! The moon is getting smaller until it looks like an old date stalk!"


    This is, hopefully, the last time I need you to get me the verses for this. I never heard of this claim.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #307 - July 29, 2013, 07:01 PM

    AlwaysSmilin is a sock puppet account of the restricted clown Dahir, as he admitted here.

    He seems to have this obsession with stalking us ex-Muslims. I’d assume it’s because he knows in his heart he doesn’t believe either, so he lashes out at us in a fit of fear.

    Hopefully the waste of space will get banned again.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #308 - July 29, 2013, 07:19 PM

    Lool, FINALLY. I swear, if you reacted like this to every muslim, I'd be shocked.

    I'm here because I just wanted to see if the "scientific miracle" claim was true and there wasn't any comebacks to these.

    To be honest, I was going to leave anyway. I am happy that I got banned, it proves that some people are really narrow minded and can't handle other opinions. I am trying my best to be openminded and I would quote all off my comments, but ....
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #309 - July 29, 2013, 07:34 PM

    AlwaysSmithin, hello! I thought maybe you'd left us for good. How are you?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #310 - July 29, 2013, 07:37 PM

    The best thing I can tell you is this. People who were muslim, or who were never muslim but have studied the faith, simply are unconvinced by it. No more, no less. We could get into theological arguments, moral arguments, and so on, but it's very simple. We're not against muslims as fellow human beings. We aren't out to burn down mosques and outlaw the quran. We simply don't believe the claims. I personally can promise you, I wish you no harm, and no ill will. I just don't believe what you believe.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #311 - July 29, 2013, 07:53 PM

    Thanks for your displays magnanimity, Quod.  I’m not usually this abrasive with guests, but multiple accounts of this same individual have been banned in the past. He came here before posting walls upon walls of Islamic propaganda and proselytizing towards new and vulnerable members. Several of us engaged with him initially, but he dismissed every argument that was presented to him and continued on with his plagiarized stock of Islamic inanity.  I’m glad to see he was banned again, as I’m sure he will be whenever he rears his idiotic head.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #312 - July 29, 2013, 08:04 PM

    No worries mate, see my above posts on this being a support site to know I completely get where you're coming from. Also considering the history, I have to commend you on your restraint.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #313 - September 30, 2013, 02:34 AM

    Can we bring this back? I'm sure there are more miracles to debunk. Oh did anyone reply to AlwaysSmilin's "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40)." comment with a solar or lunar eclipse? Which, you know, blatantly prove that verse wrong by doing exactly what they aren't permitted to do?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #314 - November 25, 2013, 09:54 PM

    QSE, your wish is my command, well if someone wants to play with me.

    Oh people of CEMB refute... thee? If you have already, copy and paste for me.. to see....hey diddle dee.


    "One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:


    He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

    This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60

    It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an."

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #315 - November 25, 2013, 09:56 PM

    Interesting that if the quran gets only one thing right for every hundred it gets wrong it's still divine Roll Eyes

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #316 - November 25, 2013, 10:19 PM

    QSE, your wish is my command, well if someone wants to play with me.

    Oh people of CEMB refute... thee? If you have already, copy and paste for me.. to see....hey diddle dee.

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    "One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:


    He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

    This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60

    It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an."



    Or maybe it was it was just an observation that people made at the time. A very obvious one that many cultures have observed over time where there is fresh water emptying out into large bodies of salt water. Or places where they are surrounded by large bodies of water that meet. I'm pretty sure they didn't know why it happened this way, just that it did. So they call it a miracle.


    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #317 - November 25, 2013, 11:52 PM

    It was an observation. I think Aristotle wrote about this.

    Anyways what do you mean by barrier and intermix? Which translation are you using as many are different in the use of words.

    He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
    Muhsin Khan
    He has let loosed the two seas (the salt water and the sweet) meeting together.
    Pickthall
    He hath loosed the two seas. They meet.
    Yusuf Ali
    He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
    Shakir
    He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:
    Dr. Ghali
    He merged the two seas (that) meet together;

    Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
    Muhsin Khan
    Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress.
    Pickthall
    There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other).
    Yusuf Ali
    Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
    Shakir
    Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.
    Dr. Ghali
    Between them (both) is an isthmus (i.e., an obstruction) (which) they do not overpass. (Literally: none of them is inequitable)

    The miracle is only taking one of the many layers and it's functions out of context. The barrier restricts but does not prevent mixing. Wind, temperate changes, evaporation, current will effect these layers. This will cause mixing. Layers will reverse positions in the Arctic for example or disappear completely due to temperature in extreme regions. Brackish waters in estuaries is an example of fresh water mixing with salt water. Sodium and chlorine ions will diffuse to water molecules which contain less ions. The miracle is confusing the point of contact with an actual barrier which prevents all mixing. Mixing will always happen via diffusion.

    Experiment 1: Take a half cup of fresh water and a half a cup of salt water. Add both to one container. The water will stabilize into two solutions; fresh water on top, salt water on the bottom. It will appear similar to the picture in Jibb's comment. Now leave this solution for several hours. Upon returning the solution will begin mixing via diffusion. If left long enough you will have a stable solution which has become homogeneous. If subjected to a temperature variable such as a burner, heat, or freezer, cold. This homogenization will accelerate or decelerate.

    Salt is soluble in water. Heat transfer between objects is will known. If you are cold stand next to a heat source. The side of your body become warming than the side not facing the heat source.

    Experiment 2: Mix two different concentrations of salt water into one container. If need be repeat experiment 1 with two different amounts of salt water; 1/3 and 2/3s for example. Observe and wait. These two solution will mix via diffusion.

    Read: http://earth.usc.edu/~stott/Catalina/Oceans.html
    http://earth.usc.edu/~stott/Catalina/Deepwater.html
    http://earth.usc.edu/classes/geol150/stott/variability/deepocean.html
    http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~andrewt/PhysOcDocs/Week2Notes.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocline
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion
    http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=183
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_equation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer#Mechanisms
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #318 - November 26, 2013, 01:42 AM

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #319 - November 26, 2013, 02:19 AM

    Can we bring this back? I'm sure there are more miracles to debunk. Oh did anyone reply to AlwaysSmilin's "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40)." comment with a solar or lunar eclipse? Which, you know, blatantly prove that verse wrong by doing exactly what they aren't permitted to do?


    I think the "nor can the Night outstrip the Day" part is in error because of what happens in the North and South Poles.  And in a Solar Eclipse I believe the Moon catches up to the Sun (if we're talking in a non-Earth perspective). 

  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #320 - November 26, 2013, 02:22 AM

    Or an Earth perspective Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #321 - November 26, 2013, 04:01 AM

    Every orbit of the Earth around the Sun the Moon "catches up".  At times the Moon is ahead of the Sun's galactic orbit. At times it is beside the Sun and at time it is behind.

    http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6h.html
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #322 - November 26, 2013, 08:07 AM

    Well Jibbs, I found this for you Smiley

    Sea barrier bullshit:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19778.0

    Also what bogart said

     popcorn

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #323 - November 26, 2013, 08:28 PM

    Ok, I don't have any knowledge to refute you so, touché my friend.

    And on to the next one kapow!!

    1257. 'A'isha said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to take care to fast on Mondays and Thursdays." [at-Tirmidhi]

     1255. Abu Qatada reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was asked about fasting Mondays and he said, "That is the day on which I was born and the day when I was sent - or when revelation descended on me." [Muslim]

     1256. Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Actions are presented on Mondays and Thursdays, so I like my actions to be presented while I am fasting." (Muslim related it without mentioning fasting.) [at-Tirmidhi]


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/18/fasting-protect-brain-diseases-scientists

    and now Mashallah the 5:2 diet has shown to have many benefits the Prophet knew this 1400 years ago.

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #324 - November 26, 2013, 08:29 PM

    In regards to the sea barrier thing, was the Prophet ever known to travel by sea?

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #325 - November 26, 2013, 08:49 PM

    How is this a miracle? I see no reference to the benefit to fasting in the verse. Also the article says "they had found evidence which shows that periods of stopping virtually all food intake for one or two days a week could protect the brain against some of the worst effects of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and other ailments." Correct me if I am wrong but Ramadan you only fast during the day, not the night. Also Monday and Thursday fasts are not Fard. The articles is talking about an absolute fast, Islams fasts are not this kind. Fasting is done in other cultures as well as religion. Some closer to the article's absolute fasting, some closer to Islamic fasts.

    I think this miracles is a stretch as key information is missing. Namely the health benefits.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #326 - November 26, 2013, 09:02 PM

    All of the scientific miracles are rather vague. Most Muslims see it as a miracle, because they believe nothing in Islam is done without purpose, we just don't know all the purposes, but everything is meant to be good for us. Therefore they use this evidence that living your life as the prophet did has a multitude of benefits, the prophet being the best example of living ones life.

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #327 - November 26, 2013, 09:17 PM

    In regards to the sea barrier thing, was the Prophet ever known to travel by sea?


    Not to my knowledge. However he did travel as far as Syria as a merchant. He could of traveled passed the Dead Sea which is a salt water lake. The Jordan river, fresh, flows into the Dead Sea. It also flows from the Sea of Galilee which is fresh water. This barrier could be seen this manner as water from one Sea is not "mixing" with the other. Arabia itself has less ports than the Levant which is dotted with port settlements. This increased the chance of meeting a seaman especially considering sea trade was far larger here than in Arabia. Meteorology by Aristotle has information about fresh and salt waters not mixing. This work work would have been accessible in area due to the Library of Alexander. The LoA made many copies of texts which were distributed by scholars to different centers of learning.

    There were plenty of opportunities to pick up this knowledge during his travels.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #328 - November 26, 2013, 09:21 PM

    All of the scientific miracles are rather vague. Most Muslims see it as a miracle, because they believe nothing in Islam is done without purpose, we just don't know all the purposes, but everything is meant to be good for us. Therefore they use this evidence that living your life as the prophet did has a multitude of benefits, the prophet being the best example of living ones life.


    These miracles are not scientific then. Scientific means verified using the scientific method. This means one can not be vague, inexact or hold idealized definition. One must be accurate, they can not hide behind vagueness. These miracle so far are within one of definition which makes these not scientific.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #329 - November 26, 2013, 10:11 PM

    They don't claim Islamic scripture to be a book of science though, they claim to be scientific miracles because there is mention of them and now science either confirms and supports it. I'm just calling it what they're calling it.

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
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