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 Topic: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?

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  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #120 - December 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on December 17, 2009, 07:06 AM
    My mom thinks, that because I am an atheist I should go pray in a church.... -_-


    Holy shit, that sounds familiar!

    My mom simply does not understand the concept of life without religion so she regularly asks me if I'm Christian now in a half-serious manner. Anything associated with "english" people - including atheism - is automatically Christian for her.  Huh?

    My dad understands fully what I am (even though I never flat out said "im atheist") and calls me a "Nasteek".
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #121 - December 17, 2009, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
    My dad understands fully what I am (even though I never flat out said "im atheist") and calls me a "Nasteek".

    Never heard that word before, is it shorthand for Nasty Kaffir  Wink
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  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #122 - December 17, 2009, 04:21 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nastika

    It's an old hindu term.. but has come to basically mean "atheist" in the Bengali usage. Surprisingly enough it's not really a nasty term in Bengali either, it's considered simply a philosophical attitude by most educated Bengalis.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #123 - December 17, 2009, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 04:21 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nastika
    it's considered simply a philosophical attitude by most educated Bengalis.

    I find that surprising, urdu words like Murtad hold so much prejudice.  I called my mum 'Murtad Ma' today (because none of her kids care much about Islam) and she went beserk..  I found it hilarious though   grin12
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  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #124 - December 17, 2009, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 17, 2009, 04:05 PM
    I agree you with, though I just refuse to allow it to bother me anymore.


    So, what did you think of the cosmological, teleological and ontological arguments as well as the rebuttals?
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #125 - December 17, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Bad taste joke removed as some people seem to take me literally sometimes. Mum's are great Afro  Wink
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #126 - December 17, 2009, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 02:31 PM


    Now this is a funny bunch. They are the ones who won't get off your case. They have to try and prove to you that the Quran is the revealed word of God. You see the underlying assumption? They forget the first hurdle because they think it's self-evident. What they should be doing is demonstrating the existence of God, then showing that the Quran is his word, which most of them fail to do. Some form of the teleological argument is thrown at you and maybe the cosmological argument. I don't think many muslims are aware of the ontological argument. A lot of them try to reason why the old "scientific miracles" in the Quran theory. But even after you have debunked those theories and shown them that those ideas were around long before the Quran pinched them, they still try to find a way to justify their belief. It's at this point that I think there is something else at play other than the reasoning they are inflicting upon you. I have often heard these muslims use the argument from authority logical fallacy as well, where they will say that if people like Al-Ghazali or Ibn Rushd believed then who the heck am I to dispute? I have found this a weak argument and have pointed it out many times to them.

    Yeah, I came to the realisation that faith really is a leap. That leap must be made first, before one reads into aqeeda and the mantiq that is used to build it.


    That was what I meant in my earlier post - when most Muslims try and change your opinion, it is driven largely by faith rather than pure logic. Most of the logic they use, is a bolt on - starting from faith.

    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 04:45 PM
    So, what did you think of the cosmological, teleological and ontological arguments as well as the rebuttals?


    The ontological arguments was not received with favour amongst the classical Muslim scholars, so it is not surprising that Muslims do not know/use it much. The cosmological and teleological arguments are expressed in the Quran, and Ibn Rushd/Ghazali were strong supporters. I guess the influence of Aristotle has much to answer for the direction used by Muslim Philosophers.
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #127 - December 17, 2009, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 17, 2009, 05:00 PM
    The ontological arguments was not received with favour amongst the classical Muslim scholars, so it is not surprising that Muslims do not know/use it much. The cosmological and teleological arguments are expressed in the Quran, and Ibn Rushd/Ghazali were strong supporters. I guess the influence of Aristotle has much to answer for the direction used by Muslim Philosophers.


    I know the muslims like the Kalam cosmological arguments and even christian apologists have adopted it. The thing that muslims keep throwing at people like us is saying that God's existence is necessary and not contingent. There was a time when I fell for that argument. But now I see it as simply an assertion, it proves nothing. By this logic we can say any number of beings necessarily exist. Why make an allowance for God?
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #128 - December 17, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on December 17, 2009, 04:48 PM
    ...... I called my mum a AIDS riddled prostitute this morning, .....


     finmad Shame on you! Shame on you!

    She carried you 9 months in her belly, for Fook sake!
    ...
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #129 - December 17, 2009, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 05:19 PM
    I know the muslims like the Kalam cosmological arguments and even christian apologists have adopted it. The thing that muslims keep throwing at people like us is saying that God's existence is necessary and not contingent. There was a time when I fell for that argument. But now I see it as simply an assertion, it proves nothing. By this logic we can say any number of beings necessarily exist. Why make an allowance for God?


    I don't have the reference, but Mohammed Iqbal wrote about his objections to this very point. When I have a moment I will try and pull up the reference for you. It's a good read
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #130 - December 17, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 17, 2009, 06:32 PM
    I don't have the reference, but Mohammed Iqbal wrote about his objections to this very point. When I have a moment I will try and pull up the reference for you. It's a good read


    Allama Iqbal had an objection to the ontological argument is that right?
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #131 - December 17, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 05:19 PM
    I know the muslims like the Kalam cosmological arguments and even christian apologists have adopted it. The thing that muslims keep throwing at people like us is saying that God's existence is necessary and not contingent. There was a time when I fell for that argument. But now I see it as simply an assertion, it proves nothing. By this logic we can say any number of beings necessarily exist. Why make an allowance for God?


    Iqbal saw the flaws within the first cause/prime mover argument. Ghazali also disagreed and argued that an inifinite regress is possible. This is why they were of the opinion that we should refrain from epirical.rational forms of evidence to prove the existance of God, and focus on spirtual and religious experiences.

    I don't have Iqbal's book to hand so can't provide the reference. However, the title of the book is "The reconstruction of religious thought in Islam"
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #132 - December 17, 2009, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 17, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Iqbal saw the flaws within the first cause/prime mover argument. Ghazali also disagreed and argued that an inifinite regress is possible. This is why they were of the opinion that we should refrain from epirical.rational forms of evidence to prove the existance of God, and focus on spirtual and religious experiences.

    I don't have Iqbal's book to hand so can't provide the reference. However, the title of the book is "The reconstruction of religious thought in Islam"


    I remember when learning about aqeeda, we were told that Allah's existence is different to ours necessary and not contingent. He is the source of being. It was also drummed in that an infinite regress was logically absurd. It seemed that only muslims or theists generally were uncomfortable with an infinite regress. I never saw an issue with it. Then there is the issue of saving yourself a step as Carl Sagan so rightly said. Why can't the universe itself be contingent upon itself? Thus eliminating the need for a God. Also the medieval arguments at best can only bring in a benign deist type of first cause. It can never bring in any of the theist qualities that the theologians like to saddle this first cause up with.

    Why should one rely on anything remotely mystical like a spiritual experience or even the "eye of the ruh" that the sufi's talk about? That very notion is subjective and can very easily be mistaken, especially when the mystical experience seems to be within the boundaries of whatever religion the individual belongs to. I was always annoyed at that sufi's who talked about the "secret" especially to someone who was having doubts. It just sounded so much like spiritual blackmail and was not even objective.
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #133 - December 17, 2009, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Allama Iqbal had an objection to the ontological argument is that right?


    I think that other than Ibn Rushd, most of the classical Muslim philosophers had a problem with the ontological argument? From my understanding it was Descartes and Anselm who really propogated the Ontological argument.
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #134 - December 17, 2009, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 17, 2009, 09:52 PM
    I think that other than Ibn Rushd, most of the classical Muslim philosophers had a problem with the ontological argument? From my understanding it was Descartes and Anselm who really propogated the Ontological argument.


    The ontological argument is one that you have to read twice to get the gist of what is being said. I think it's similar to the necessary existence statement that the muslims make. I know Anselm was the one who invented it and Descartes propogated it. I think Emmanuel Kant overturned all three arguments in his Critique of Pure Reason. The most recent theologian to bring the argument back is Alvin Plantinga. BTW have you seen this website?

    http://www.infidels.org/

    There's a philosopher called Richard Carrier who writes for that site. I'm a huge fan of his writings.
  • Re: How many of you were religious, practicing muslims before your apostasy?
     Reply #135 - December 17, 2009, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 17, 2009, 09:57 PM
    BTW have you seen this website?

    http://www.infidels.org/

    There's a philosopher called Richard Carrier who writes for that site. I'm a huge fan of his writings.


    Thanks for the link, I will check it out!
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