Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?

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Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
OP - February 26, 2009, 11:33 PM

I noticed one odd thing in the Qur'an and that is that before some verses start, the word "say" is said before the actual verse starts. Take for example Surah 113.

Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Day break, from the evil of what He has created; from the evil of darkness when it gathers; from the evil of the conjuring witches; from the evil of the envier when he envies.

Howcome many verses in the Qur'an have the word "say"? Was it added in there by somebody else or is it actually a part of God's speech?

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #1 - February 26, 2009, 11:42 PM

Never thought about that, but good question nonetheless. Also why use the word "say"? I dont think any other scriptures do this..

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #2 - February 26, 2009, 11:57 PM

Cuz it was a command from Allah to Muhammad or whoever he was addressing that this is something they should say...

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #3 - February 28, 2009, 07:41 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on February 26, 2009, 11:33 PM
I noticed one odd thing in the Qur'an and that is that before some verses start, the word "say" is said before the actual verse starts. Take for example Surah 113.

Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Day break, from the evil of what He has created; from the evil of darkness when it gathers; from the evil of the conjuring witches; from the evil of the envier when he envies.

Howcome many verses in the Qur'an have the word "say"? Was it added in there by somebody else or is it actually a part of God's speech?

That was a good question and Awais gave you a brief answer correctly.

In other Scriptures, you have the following style:

The LORD said to Moses: "..........."
Moses said, "................................"

Jesus said, ".................. "
The Jews said, "............."

This shows that the above were written by various narrators.

In case of Qur'aan, it is different. Muhammad had no knowledge of other Scriptures as Arabs never had prophets and Books sent to them.

The message and all the exchange in Qur'aan comes from Allah, recited to Muhammad, the unlettered. Qur'aan also prepared Muhammad by teaching him how to argue and reason.

He was being told in Qur'aan to tell people what he heard and people would ask him questions and answers were revealed to him.

Thus the exchange would go like this:

They ask you about this? Tell them or say, "..............."

"Tell them" or "Say" in Arabic is قُلْ and "They said" in Arabic is قَالُو

"He said" in Arabic is قَالَ Here, one has to read and understand very carefully who that is
قَالَ , which means "He said". This is where you may find the translators adding within caps or brackets to show the readers not familiar with Arabic, who that was.

Thus the translator has to write: "Say, 'There is only one God.' " You will thus never find in Qur'aan that Muhamamd said this and the Jews or the Christians or the Pagans said that.

Hope this helped.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #4 - February 28, 2009, 09:46 AM

The honest answer (excluding BMZ's) is that the word say is not written there.
The problem is that for some of the revelations, the voice that the Qur'an is spoken with is not that of Allah - rather it is that of Muhammad.

Since the Qur'an is supposed to be from Muhammad, this poses a bit of a problem - some of the English translations get around this by adding extra words such as "say".

You'll also find that those translations also tend to be the ones that have
"(and as a last resort) beat them (lightly)" - rather than the correct "beat them".
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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #5 - February 28, 2009, 10:14 AM

It is written there hupla. Can you read Arabic? If you can, then either you're ignorant or dishonest.

Props to BMZ .

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #6 - February 28, 2009, 10:34 AM

Quote from: BMZ on February 28, 2009, 07:41 AM
The message and all the exchange in Qur'aan comes from Allah, recited to Muhammad, the unlettered. Qur'aan also prepared Muhammad by teaching him how to argue and reason.

If so, then the Quran was doing a pretty crappy & unconvincing job at it. The people at Mecca were not ready to accept his faith till the end, he had to force them to do so.He marched to Mecca, smashed all their idols & threatened to kill anyone who came out of their homes to protect those. Most Jews didn't accept him as their promised Messiah either, he had to fight bloody wars to defeat them.

And even after Muhammad's death, those who'd been converted by force supposedly by God's Prophet were so keen to break free of the new faith, that immediately ridda(apostasy) wars broke out, which had to be ruthlessly put down, by a lot of murders & mayhem again. Seems teaching arguing & reasoning aren't Allah's strong points, or He chose a very poor debater as His Last Prophet. Tch, Tch.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #7 - February 28, 2009, 10:44 AM

Quote from: awais on February 28, 2009, 10:14 AM
If you can, then either you're ignorant or dishonest.

Ignorant rather than dishonest.
Are you sure? I've definitely read that regarding the "Say" bits added in the English translations of the Surahs towards the end of the Qur'an are not actually in the text.
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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #8 - February 28, 2009, 10:56 AM

Quote from: awais on February 28, 2009, 10:14 AM
It is written there hupla. Can you read Arabic? If you can, then either you're ignorant or dishonest.

Props to BMZ .

Thanks, Awais.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #9 - February 28, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote from: hupla on February 28, 2009, 10:44 AM
Quote from: awais on February 28, 2009, 10:14 AM
If you can, then either you're ignorant or dishonest.

Ignorant rather than dishonest.
Are you sure? I've definitely read that regarding the "Say" bits added in the English translations of the Surahs towards the end of the Qur'an are not actually in the text.

They're in there. I've heard Qaddafi removed them in Libyan publications of the Arabic Qur'an. Reasoning was the ones Allah was addressing (Muhammad, his companions, et al) are no longer around.

When you see in the translation where it says "say", look on the Arabic side for the characters BMZ has provided above: قُلْ.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #10 - February 28, 2009, 11:36 AM

Quote from: hupla on February 28, 2009, 10:44 AM
Quote from: awais on February 28, 2009, 10:14 AM
If you can, then either you're ignorant or dishonest.

Ignorant rather than dishonest.
Are you sure? I've definitely read that regarding the "Say" bits added in the English translations of the Surahs towards the end of the Qur'an are not actually in the text.

Awais is sure and I am sure too. If I weren't, I would not have explained.

The "Say" bits, which you said, are in Qur'aan in Arabic. Let me show you with the help of Arabic and the translation. All the words like 'Say, He said, They said" have been emboldened for your convenience. I hope you are aware that Arabic is read from right to left:

قَالُواْ نُرِيدُ أَن نَّأْكُلَ مِنْهَا وَتَطْمَئِنَّ قُلُوبُنَا وَنَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ صَدَقْتَنَا وَنَكُونَ عَلَيْهَا مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ ﴿١١٣

The word in Arabic in above is قَالُو and match it with the first word on the right. The translator has written it in English as They said and then the statement is within the inverted commas.

113:They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ اللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَا أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ السَّمَاء تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً لِّأَوَّلِنَا وَآخِرِنَا وَآيَةً مِّنكَ وَارْزُقْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ ﴿١١٤﴾

114:Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

Here the Arabic word is قَالَ which is showing Jesus doing the talking.

قَالَ اللّهُ إِنِّي مُنَزِّلُهَا عَلَيْكُمْ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بَعْدُ مِنكُمْ فَإِنِّي أُعَذِّبُهُ عَذَابًا لاَّ أُعَذِّبُهُ أَحَدًا مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ ﴿١١٥﴾

115 Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

Here, it the same قَالَ used by Allah, so the translator wrote "Allah said".

قُلْ سِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ ثُمَّ انظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ ﴿١١﴾

11 Say: "Travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected Truth."

Here you have قُلْ in above , in Arabic.

Hope this helped more. Awais has just asked you to look at the words, so try to match and see.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #11 - February 28, 2009, 06:31 PM

Most of the times when the order: 'Say' is used, it is to ask the reader to or the people addressed to say something, as BMZ eloquently explained above.

But there are many verses in the koran where the writer mess up the order of who is saying and who is ordering.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #12 - February 28, 2009, 07:10 PM

Quote from: Baal on February 28, 2009, 06:31 PM
But there are many verses in the koran where the writer mess up the order of who is saying and who is ordering.

Aaah, that explains why it is applied inconsistantly

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #13 - February 28, 2009, 11:22 PM

Ibn Warraq mentions this in his book "Why I Am Not A Muslim".

In the book he asserts the word "Say" was added in by compilers of the Quran in order to make it seem as though the words were spoken by Allah instead of Muhammad.

But they obviously forgot to put it in Sura 6, Verse 114, which begins with:

6:114 - Shall I seek other than Allah for judge?

Those words were clearly spoken by Muhammad.

The Yusuf Ali translation of this verse very sneakily added the word "Say" at the beginning of that verse, even though it doesn?t exist in the original arabic.

How typical of Yusuf Ali. He also put the word "lightly" after "beat them" in verse 4:34.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #14 - March 01, 2009, 01:31 AM

Can someone tell me which translation of the Quran are we to use, which is univerally recognised as a fair translation by arabic speakers.

We non-speakers have little clue, and can only accept what we are told (I have been using Yusuf Ali to date!)

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #15 - March 01, 2009, 02:36 AM

Quote from: Shahid Raza on February 28, 2009, 11:22 PM
But they obviously forgot to put it in Sura 6, Verse 114, which begins with:

6:114 - Shall I seek other than Allah for judge?
Those words were clearly spoken by Muhammad.

Thanks! I keep record of these verses and I didn't know about this one. I also keep record of other problematic or interesting verses.
My current list of chapters and verses which are missing the word "qul": 1; 6:114; 11:2; 51:50-51; 84:16

Quote from: Shahid Raza on February 28, 2009, 11:22 PM
The Yusuf Ali translation of this verse very sneakily added the word "Say" at the beginning of that verse, even though it doesn?t exist in the original arabic.

Oh, at first I thought Yusuf put those in parentheses, but to my surprise - when I checked - he didn't. He just inserted the word "Say" in order to amend Allah's perfect revelation.
Quote from: Shahid Raza on February 28, 2009, 11:22 PM
How typical of Yusuf Ali. He also put the word "lightly" after "beat them" in verse 4:34.

Yes, but those are at least in parentheses, making it visible to the reader that this is actually not part of the original Qur'an.

I wonder how Muslims try to explain these missing "qul"s.

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #16 - March 02, 2009, 05:37 PM

I wonder why Qul appears in the last four Surahs, but not at the start of the very first one. That is obviously a prayer to god, and not something god itself said. Or is god praising itself again as though it is multiple people? Asking itself for help?

I know the chronological blah blah of the surah, but I wonder if it came about simply because muslims needed a specific prayer to allah and was used as the opening later?

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #17 - March 02, 2009, 05:56 PM

Quote from: Aziz on March 01, 2009, 02:36 AM
Thanks! I keep record of these verses and I didn't know about this one. I also keep record of other problematic or interesting verses.

Are you willing to list some of the best from your list here, as we might include them in our concise islamic critique

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Re: Howcome some verses in the Qur'an say the word "say" before the verse starts?
Reply #18 - March 02, 2009, 11:15 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 02, 2009, 05:56 PM
Are you willing to list some of the best from your list here, as we might include them in our concise islamic critique

Perhaps some time later. Though I'm sure the Skeptics Annotated Qur'an pretty much surpasses the list I have.

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