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 Topic: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?

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  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #30 - March 03, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Phedippedes is a member here.  All the people named in that list would be the sensible voices at FFI who didn't engage in black and white, muslims are the new Nazis style thinking.  If even a fan of FFI quotes those posters as the most persuasive, then it certainly makes no sense for us to become more like FFI - those were the un-FFI like voices there.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #31 - March 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
    At the risk of turning this into an FFI love-in, I have to admit that FFI and in particular Ali Sina himself did make some very good points. It definitely wasn't the reason I left Islam, I was going through doubts well before that and I knew things didn't add up, but when I read some of the things on FFI they did have an effect.

    I remember one conversation I had in particular. They were discusing aisha being 9. I knew there were contray hadiths and stuff, but I decided I wasn't going to get into all that I would accept that she was 9, but I tried to argue that this was a different time and this was acceptable then. Someone then asked me "Do you think it is acceptable now" I had to be honest and say no. I was actually teaching a class of 9 year-olds in Islamia school and I knew none of those little kids were ready for marriage in any way.

    The person then said then Muhammad cannot be an example for all times and all places can he.

    I simply had no answer - he was right - end of story.

    But what drove me away was the really nasty hate and bigotry from some posters - they just hated Muslims with a vengence and simply wanted to tear into them rather than have a sensible discussion - I could see the more balanced ones were also annoyed by this.

    In fact I remained a Muslim for another five or six years (though I think deep down I was already an ex-Muslim by then), but I carried on partly because I was so disgusted by the racists and bigots.

    @ Finnally-Free: What made you suddenly go from Muslim to wanting all Muslims deported? That bit I really can't understand?
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #32 - March 03, 2009, 07:30 PM
    CEMB  far away hug  FFI
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #33 - March 03, 2009, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
    @ Finnally-Free: What made you suddenly go from Muslim to wanting all Muslims deported? That bit I really can't understand?

    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.

    Which is sensible considering the murder and strife those extremist leaders are causing in their own home-countries. In fact, over the past Two decades, many moderate muslim leaders, requested to 'take back' some of the worst offenders (Abu bakr, zawahiri, kerkar, etc.) but the western leaders refused to hand the mass murderers back.

    Now of course, the situation worsened, with the extremist muslim leaders now sitting with a nice solid western base outside their home countries, and then exporting the hate back home but in a western package.

    i.e. Translating mein kampf into arabic and sending it back home portraying it as the western hadith. Building TV shows using the latest and greatest, in western media shock and confound tricks. etc.

    Yes, I am all for sending a bunch of guys back home. And I am damn sure that, if the muslim community does not remove the bad apples from their midst, the west will do it for them. And the west, IMO is usually very stupid and blunt when it comes to removing apples. As the last time the west removed some bad apples, 50 million people died, when 99.9% of the dead, were good people.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #34 - March 03, 2009, 10:30 PM
    Quote
    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.


    No, that's not what he said when he joined.  He said he wanted a government re-education campaign for all muslims, and those that didn't leave Islam should be deported.

    He's re-thunk that since though.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #35 - March 03, 2009, 10:32 PM
    No, he wanted all Muslims deported.  He has since had a rethink, and taken it back.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #36 - March 03, 2009, 10:33 PM
    Sorry to repeat your post Cheetah, we must have done them pretty much in parallel
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #37 - March 03, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2009, 10:33 PM
    Sorry to repeat your post Cheetah, we must have done them pretty much in parallel


    Great minds, etc.   Afro
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #38 - March 03, 2009, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Baal on March 03, 2009, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
    @ Finnally-Free: What made you suddenly go from Muslim to wanting all Muslims deported? That bit I really can't understand?

    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.



    You are pure gold, Baal.
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #39 - March 03, 2009, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on March 03, 2009, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Baal on March 03, 2009, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
    @ Finnally-Free: What made you suddenly go from Muslim to wanting all Muslims deported? That bit I really can't understand?

    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.



    You are pure gold, Baal.

    Tx for the compliment but adults are talking.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #40 - March 03, 2009, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 03, 2009, 10:30 PM
    Quote
    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.


    No, that's not what he said when he joined.  He said he wanted a government re-education campaign for all muslims, and those that didn't leave Islam should be deported.

    He's re-thunk that since though.

    Cool. Good job to the forum then. One more good guy.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #41 - March 03, 2009, 10:52 PM
    Quote from: Baal on March 03, 2009, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on March 03, 2009, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Baal on March 03, 2009, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
    @ Finnally-Free: What made you suddenly go from Muslim to wanting all Muslims deported? That bit I really can't understand?

    I did not get the impression that he wanted muslims deported. Only certain muslim leaders.



    You are pure gold, Baal.

    Tx for the compliment but adults are talking.



    So? it doesn't mean you can't join in.
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #42 - March 03, 2009, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: Baal
    Cool. Good job to the forum then. One more good guy.


    Yep.   Smiley
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #43 - March 04, 2009, 12:22 AM
    Lovely video Hass, I agree with everything you say.

    It is incredibly dangerous and unfair to tell those people who are trying to reinterpret the Koran peacefully that they are committing taqquiya or for them to have non muslims tell them that they have misunderstood their beloved texts.

    Although it is true that they have misunderstood their texts. Speaking the truth isn't always the best course of action.

    This is the dilemma, I value honesty so it would be difficult for me to button my lip if someone tells me the Koran doesn't sanction domestic violence and how to tell the difference between a good man who sincerely believes that there is nothing violent and hateful in the Koran and a fundamentalist who is just saying that for political reasons?

    So you have given me a very difficult decision, support the peaceful reformers and potentially support the unethical few who are genuinely committing taqquiya or just be honest about what I know is in the Koran.

    It's a difficult one. As Sam Harris says "Islamic fundamentalism is a problem because the fundamentals of Islam are a problem"

    How can the majority of conservative Muslims reform when they are taught it is a mortal sin to question the Koran and they are bought up to emulate, hero worship and love a violent, bigoted and manipulative man like Muhammad?

    This is a minefield of potential pitfalls, honesty might stifle the sparks of reform but supporting the idea that Islam is a peaceful religion and that the Koran is benign plays into the Islamists hands.

    It feels like a lose lose situation and I'm not sure I'm prepared to sacrifice my honesty on a losing proposition.

    If the good man who sincerely believes the Koran is a peaceful book bereft of barbarity and intolerance was to say that to me I'm not sure I could hold my tongue and I'm still not convinced I should.

    What do you think I should do in such a situation?

    I would never accuse him of committing taqquiya as that implies dishonesty and bad intentions but I think I would have to say he was wrong and if he pushed the point I would have to tell him that the Koran really is as bad as the Islamists say it is.

     parrot
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #44 - March 04, 2009, 07:43 AM
    No-one is saying one should sacrifice honesty, Bruce. I criticise Islam - look at my videos lol.

    Look at "Hit Them" for example - I make it absolutely clear that I believe the translation of "Leave Them alone" is wrong and that "Hit them" is the correct translation.

    If you are talking to a peaceful Muslim, it would be silly (and quite difficult) to not say what you really think.

    But just as I don't go around saying Christians who say "Violence is not in the nature of God" are not  true Christians and are practicing deception to take over the world - - I am not going to go around telling peaceful Muslims they are not true Muslims and are practicing taqiyyah etc...

    It doesn't stop me criticising specific points with them, though.

    I simply recognise that they genuinely believe that is true Islam (or true Christianity etc...)

    The basic thing is we must differentiate between Islam - and as a result between different Muslims.

    One can't can't call ALL Islam an evil religion or a fascist religion without implying ALL Muslims themselves are evil and fascists.

    This is the main reason I believe it is so important to differentiate.

    I'm certainly not saying one can't criticise specfics. (again I direct you to my videos Smiley  )
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #45 - March 04, 2009, 08:05 AM
    I prefer good interpretations. I do not mind even ambiguous interpretations. What i can not accept are interpretation, that sounds okay in english or in hindi but an arabic speaker would laugh at because of clear and obvious errors.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #46 - March 04, 2009, 09:33 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on March 04, 2009, 12:22 AM
    If the good man who sincerely believes the Koran is a peaceful book bereft of barbarity and intolerance was to say that to me I'm not sure I could hold my tongue and I'm still not convinced I should.

    What do you think I should do in such a situation?

    I would never accuse him of committing taqquiya as that implies dishonesty and bad intentions but I think I would have to say he was wrong and if he pushed the point I would have to tell him that the Koran really is as bad as the Islamists say it is.

     parrot

    I've been stuck in that situation quite a few times. I think the best approach would be to teach them to question the peaceful interpretations. I usually just come out and state all the bad stuff, I cant hold it in.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #47 - March 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: Baal on March 04, 2009, 08:05 AM
    I prefer good interpretations. I do not mind even ambiguous interpretations. What i can not accept are interpretation, that sounds okay in english or in hindi but an arabic speaker would laugh at because of clear and obvious errors.




    I agree with you, but there is no reason why we cannot tolerate peaceful interpretations regardless of how flawed we regard them to be.

    It should be blindingly obvious that as ex-Muslims (and supporters of ex-Muslims Wink ) we clearly do not believe any of the interpretations of Muslims and we find fault with all of them.

    But that doesn't mean I am opposed to all of them.

    As a movement we are right to confront political and extremist Islam.

    But I have no beef with peaceful Muslims and their peaceful interpretations of Islam. (but that still doesn't mean we can't criticise anything we want.)

    I'm just repeating myself now - over and out!  grin12
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #48 - March 04, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
    But I have no beef with peaceful Muslims and their peaceful interpretations of Islam. (but that still doesn't mean we can't criticise anything we want.)

    I'm just repeating myself now - over and out!  grin12

    The problem with some peaceful muslims is that they have a tendency to become more extreme with age.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #49 - March 04, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 04, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
    But I have no beef with peaceful Muslims and their peaceful interpretations of Islam. (but that still doesn't mean we can't criticise anything we want.)

    I'm just repeating myself now - over and out!  grin12

    The problem with some peaceful muslims is that they have a tendency to become more extreme with age.

    Just like regular ass people become more conservative as they get older...  Roll Eyes
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #50 - March 04, 2009, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 04, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
    But I have no beef with peaceful Muslims and their peaceful interpretations of Islam. (but that still doesn't mean we can't criticise anything we want.)

    I'm just repeating myself now - over and out!  grin12

    The problem with some peaceful muslims is that they have a tendency to become more extreme with age.


    I think things can go the other way too, Peruvian. People can moderate with age.

    In fact I think many young radicals later feel embarrassed about the radicalism of their youth.

    I remember most of the extreme idiots shooting their mouths off on ummah.com were teenagers.

    It worries me more when I see older people still holding extreme views.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #51 - March 04, 2009, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 04, 2009, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 04, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 04, 2009, 12:27 PM
    But I have no beef with peaceful Muslims and their peaceful interpretations of Islam. (but that still doesn't mean we can't criticise anything we want.)

    I'm just repeating myself now - over and out!  grin12

    The problem with some peaceful muslims is that they have a tendency to become more extreme with age.


    I think things can go the other way too, Peruvian. People can moderate with age.

    In fact I think many young radicals later feel embarrassed about the radicalism of their youth.

    I remember most of the extreme idiots shooting their mouths off on ummah.com were teenagers.

    It worries me more when I see older people still holding extreme views.

    That's an excellent point.

    I'm hoping that organisations like this one will help rid the taboo of apostasy. I believe that will have a tremendous effect on the Islamic world. Maybe this is why they feel so threatened by it.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #52 - March 04, 2009, 02:30 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 04, 2009, 01:24 PM
    I'm hoping that organisations like this one will help rid the taboo of apostasy.


    Absolutely!
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #53 - January 26, 2011, 06:54 AM
    First, as a relatively new member, I want to politely inquire if it is halal to dig up ancient threads and try to give one's 3 kopecks on the subject, knowing well that everything one can think of has already probably been discussed ad nauseam?

    If it is a faux pas, then I will not do this again.

    Otherwise I have a question for Hassan.

    Hassan,

    Does the subject still interest you in the least or have you comfortably stagnated on it? If it does, then have you reconsidered any of the views expressed in the thread and the video?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #54 - January 26, 2011, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 26, 2011, 06:54 AM
    First, as a relatively new member, I want to politely inquire if it is halal to dig up ancient threads and try to give one's 3 kopecks on the subject, knowing well that everything one can think of has already probably been discussed ad nauseam?

    If it is a faux pas, then I will not do this again.

    Otherwise I have a question for Hassan.

    Hassan,

    Does the subject still interest you in the least or have you comfortably stagnated on it? If it does, then have you reconsidered any of the views expressed in the thread and the video?


    You are welcome to drag up any old thread - there are some long forgotten gems in the archives  Afro

    My position is exactly the same as in that video. I stand by every single word.  Afro

    You won't be able to see that vid on my discussislam channel as it's private, but the same vid is available on the CEMBadmins channel - here:

    Just checked and it's not there - that's odd?

    Allat - was it not uploaded?

    I can submit it again now if you like?


  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #55 - January 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
    I watched the video on CEMB. (Then I searched the forum for the subject and found the thread)

    First, I believe that you are doing a great work by placating idiots who need to act on their xenophobia.

    I love all people equally little, no matter what country they came from or what is their religious background.

    I also admit that majority of Muslims are cool and not a threat in any way.

    However,

    By saying that there is no real Islam or that radical Islam is no more true than a moderate one, are you not essentially doing the same thing that Boosh started doing after 9/11 by calling Islam "religion of peace"?

    Would we not be better of by simply saying that most Muslims are peaceful, period. This would be true. But when we have to say that one interpretation of Islam is no more true than the other is that really true?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #56 - January 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
    Found it!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uJbh4_hsLs
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #57 - January 26, 2011, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
    By saying that there is no real Islam or that radical Islam is no more true than a moderate one, are you not essentially doing the same thing that Boosh started doing after 9/11 by calling Islam "religion of peace"?


    Certainly not!

    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
    But when we have to say that one interpretation of Islam is no more true than the other is that really true?


    No one has to say anything. Everyone is free to have their own opinion.

    My opinion is that there is no such thing as true Islam. Without doubt many moderates are very selective in what they accept and reject in Qur'an and Sunna, but so are the many flavours of fundamentalists.

    Muslims of course are bound to believe there is a true Islam since they believe it's from God. I find it odd though when many non-Muslims fall into that trap too.

    The fact is religion changes, evolves - even in it's formative periods - and then continues after that.

    A persons faith is by definition what he believes - not what others say he believes.
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #58 - January 26, 2011, 05:24 PM
    I think you used "fundamentalist" for the first time in this thread. Would you say that fundamental Islam = radical Islam, or not? If not, why not?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Islam or Political/Extremist Islam?
     Reply #59 - January 26, 2011, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 26, 2011, 05:24 PM
    I think you used "fundamentalist" for the first time in this thread. Would you say that fundamental Islam = radical Islam, or not? If not, why not?


    I use these terms without thinking to much about them since there are so many different groups that believe slightly different things it is impossible to use terms that classify all of them.

    Are the Salafis: fundamentalists, radicals, Islamists, neo-classicists/traditionalists, fanatics, extremists, etc...

    What about HizbuTahrir?

    Or Muhajiroun

    Or Jama'atuTableegh

    Or Jayshuallah

    Or Jihadis

    Or Ikhwan

    Or Hizbollah

    and so on...

    Does it matter that much what words I use?





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