Mohammad, the Pedophile

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- Zaephon
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Mohammad, the Pedophile
OP - March 08, 2009, 06:26 PM

Hello folks,

Every now and then, an Islamic apologist shows up with fancy excuses to rationalise and/or defend Mohammad's pedophilia. We have a new volunteer, who apparently thinks that Mohammad's pedophilia is just a nasty, racist, neo-Nazi fantasy invented for the purpose of persecuting Muslims. In his own words:

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
". As for the charge of pedophilia, yes I think its ridiculous and part of an overall to paint everything he did as necessarilly evil"

Now let us hear what Islamic scripture has to say on the matter:

Tabari VII:7 "The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six."

Bukhari 7. 62. 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Ishaq:281 "When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three."

Tabari VII:6 "In May, 623 A.D./A.H. 1, Allah's Messenger consummated his marriage to Aisha."

Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Bukhari 8. 73.151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #1 - March 08, 2009, 06:44 PM

I don't believe it is historically correct to apply terms like pedophile to historical figures like Muhammad. It was quite acceptable for older men to marry young girls in many societies in the past. Only a hundred years ago it was still common for men in Britain to marry girls aged 12, 13 or 14. It is nonsense to call all those people pedophiles.

The term pedophile is simply not appropriate to historical figures who were conforming to the norms of their own society.

NOTE
Fortunately we have moved on from the morality of such times and we know Muhammad was wrong and he was certainly no role-model for mankind.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #2 - March 08, 2009, 06:50 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 08, 2009, 06:44 PM
I don't believe it is historically correct to apply terms like pedophile to historical figures like Muhammad. It was quite acceptable for older men to marry young girls. Only a hundred years ago it was still common for men in Britain to marry girls aged 12, 13 or 14. It is nonsense to call all those people pedophiles.

The term pedophile is simply not appropriate to historical figures who were conforming to the norms of their own society.

NOTE
That doesn't mean we can't say it was wrong and that Muhammad was no role-model for mankind as a result.

When I checked the meaning of the word "pedophilia" I couldn't find any such restrictions. Mohammad was a pedophile. Your suggestions only mean that pedophilia was widespread in mediaeval Arabic society. A pedophile is always a pedophile. Do you think we cannot apply the term "murderer" to an ancient figure who killed other human beings? If so, why did ancient socities punish murderers? Why did other ancient societies abhor child abuse?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #3 - March 08, 2009, 06:52 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on March 08, 2009, 06:50 PM
Quote from: Hassan on March 08, 2009, 06:44 PM
I don't believe it is historically correct to apply terms like pedophile to historical figures like Muhammad. It was quite acceptable for older men to marry young girls. Only a hundred years ago it was still common for men in Britain to marry girls aged 12, 13 or 14. It is nonsense to call all those people pedophiles.

The term pedophile is simply not appropriate to historical figures who were conforming to the norms of their own society.

NOTE
That doesn't mean we can't say it was wrong and that Muhammad was no role-model for mankind as a result.

When I checked the meaning of the word "pedophilia" I couldn't find any such restrictions. Mohammad was a pedophile. Your suggestions only mean that pedophilia was widespread in mediaeval Arabic society. A pedophile is always a pedophile. Do you think we cannot apply the term "murderer" to an ancient figure who killed other human beings? If so, why did ancient socities punish murderers? Why did other ancient societies abhor child abuse?

Yes, ancient societies did punish murderers - that's the whole point. They did not punish men who married young brides. It was accepted - as I say up until only 100 years ago taking a young wife was legal.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #4 - March 08, 2009, 06:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan
Yes, ancient societies did punish murderers - that's the whole point. They did not punish men who married young brides. It was accepted - as I say up until only 100 years ago taking a young wife was legal.

So you agree that a murderer was still a murderer in ancient societies. Why do you think a pedophile was not a pedophile, then? We are not discussing whether pedophilia was acceptable in ancient Arabia, we are discussing whether Mohammad was a pedophile, I should think.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #5 - March 08, 2009, 07:15 PM

To me, Mo is a pedophile but isn't one of the characteristics of being a pedophile the tendency to do it over and over again? Sure he was screwing Aisha but I think he would have went after other young girls after Aisha got older?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #6 - March 08, 2009, 07:23 PM

Quote from: Hassan
Yes, ancient societies did punish murderers - that's the whole point. They did not punish men who married young brides. It was accepted - as I say up until only 100 years ago taking a young wife was legal.

During the lifetime of Muhammed people who killed their infant daughters were not punished because female infanticide was acceptable in pre-Islamic Arabia. But people who killed baby girls were still murderers, just as people who had sex with 9 year olds were still paedophiles.

Quote from: Iggy
To me, Mo is a pedophile but isn't one of the characteristics of being a pedophile the tendency to do it over and over again?

No, not necessarily. One child or a hundred children fits the perpetrator into the clinical definition of paedophilia.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #7 - March 08, 2009, 07:40 PM

Quote from: Iggy on March 08, 2009, 07:15 PM
To me, Mo is a pedophile but isn't one of the characteristics of being a pedophile the tendency to do it over and over again? Sure he was screwing Aisha but I think he would have went after other young girls after Aisha got older?

Aisha was his favourite wife, according to the Hadith. This means Mohammad abused her repeatedly for years.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #8 - March 08, 2009, 07:52 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on March 08, 2009, 06:59 PM
So you agree that a murderer was still a murderer in ancient societies. Why do you think a pedophile was not a pedophile, then?

Because it wasn't a crime then.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #9 - March 08, 2009, 07:55 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on March 08, 2009, 07:23 PM
Quote from: Hassan
Yes, ancient societies did punish murderers - that's the whole point. They did not punish men who married young brides. It was accepted - as I say up until only 100 years ago taking a young wife was legal.

During the lifetime of Muhammed people who killed their infant daughters were not punished because female infanticide was acceptable in pre-Islamic Arabia. But people who killed baby girls were still murderers, just as people who had sex with 9 year olds were still paedophiles.

That's true, but there is a difference between someone who is breaking the norms of their society and one who is not.

Those people who buried infant children cannot be judged in the same way as they would have been had they been doing it when the society around them disapproved of it.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #10 - March 08, 2009, 08:02 PM

Quote from: Hassan
That's true, but there is a difference between someone who is breaking the norms of their society and one who is not.

This is a very weak argument, Hassan. I didn't think you would fall for such a trap. With the same train of thought, we cannot condemn people who beat their wives or marry children in modern Islamic society... because they are simply conforming to the norms of the society, right?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #11 - March 08, 2009, 08:03 PM

Quote
That's true, but there is a difference between someone who is breaking the norms of their society and one who is not.

Those people who buried infant children cannot be judged in the same way as they would have been had they been doing it when the society around them disapproved of it.

I completely agree, but we still have to define them according to our own vocabulary, even while we recognise the mitigating cultural factors. Its the fact that "paedophile" has such an utterly loathesome ring to 21st century ears that is responsible for much of the defensiveness about this subject, IMO. But even so, paedophile has a specific clinical definition, and Muhammed fits it, as do many other men of his time.

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- Baal
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #12 - March 08, 2009, 08:27 PM

I am a bit opposed to starting this thread. Those who need to defend islam's champion, will twist and turn to accept his action. Ultimately, it is not that they do not care about little girls, it is just that they perceive the contribution of islam to be so much more in other fields, that matter to them more then the little girls.

Some people have young daughters, or have been abused themselves, or are teachers to young girls, they are probably already appalled at the action of the champion of islam.

Some people see something wrong with the islamic culture and need to list the reason why they think it is wrong.

Either way, starting the thread is not beneficial. Zaephon, if you want BCM to contribute an opinion, you are blowing in an empty balloon. Beside his personal flaw that he is incapable of giving an opinion, he falls strongly in the first category. He does not care about little girls.

Here are the arguments I went up against from FFI:

1. "It was permissible at his time": No it was not permissible. He had to break his blood-bond with abu bakr, to do it. Also he refused to marry his own daughter citing her age. And she was older then Aisha.

2. "The term pedophile does not apply for his time": True to a point.

A society that encourages necrophilia, does not mean everyone in it is a necrophile. More so, not everyone in it, who engaged in necrophilia, is by definition a 'necrophile'. Maybe it was just a one-time thing for him, or maybe someone slept with a corpse because of social pressure, or expedience.

Muhammad however fits a pedophile, because, within his society, which to a point tolerated pedohilia, again and again mehammad indicated a preference for younger wives. Whenever he had the choice of women, he always went for the youngest, for the teenagers. Even when he was over 50. Also with Aisha, the age difference was extreme even by the standard of his society.

3. "She was 18": I have caught mathematical & logical mistakes in every argument trying to pin her at 18 instead of 9.

4. "She grew up a fine woman, so she was not abused" - Abused women often grow up fine women. And Aisha in particular, as she gained prestige, displayed a vitriolic hate against many of the sahabas, and 2 of the khalifas.

5. "The stories are wrong, the real Muhammad did not do it": What difference what the real muhammad did, or if he even existed. The faith is built on the stories that we have today. The laws are built on the stories we have today. The stories we have is what we are asked to accept and follow.

6. etc. etc.

The points are many, the evidence is daming, but what is the point to discuss it with someone who is not interested in the well-being of little girls?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #13 - March 08, 2009, 08:30 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on March 08, 2009, 08:02 PM
Quote from: Hassan
That's true, but there is a difference between someone who is breaking the norms of their society and one who is not.

This is a very weak argument, Hassan. I didn't think you would fall for such a trap. With the same train of thought, we cannot condemn people who beat their wives or marry children in modern Islamic society... because they are simply conforming to the norms of the society, right?

I didn't say anything about not condemning it, Zaephon. Of course we can condemn it and find it utterly disgusting and immoral.

I just don't find the term paedophile - a fairly modern concept - to be a correct term for those very many people who married young brides.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #14 - March 08, 2009, 08:34 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on March 08, 2009, 08:03 PM
Quote
That's true, but there is a difference between someone who is breaking the norms of their society and one who is not.

Those people who buried infant children cannot be judged in the same way as they would have been had they been doing it when the society around them disapproved of it.

I completely agree, but we still have to define them according to our own vocabulary, even while we recognise the mitigating cultural factors. Its the fact that "paedophile" has such an utterly loathesome ring to 21st century ears that is responsible for much of the defensiveness about this subject, IMO. But even so, paedophile has a specific clinical definition, and Muhammed fits it, as do many other men of his time.

It may be a specific word - but not one that I believe can be correctly applied in retrospect to the many people who married young brides throughout history.

But if you do - then you must apply it to all men who married young brides. It is more than probable that quite a few of our great grandfathers - and in some cases grandfathers - should be called paedophiles then. (and our great grandmothers abused women) However I do not think it is correct to do so.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #15 - March 08, 2009, 08:42 PM

Quote from: Hassan
I just don't find the term paedophile - a fairly modern concept - to be a correct term for those very many people who married young brides.

Genocide, as a term, was also coined very recently, but this doesn't change the fact that many different ethnic groups were wiped out throughout history.

If we employ your line of thinking, Aztecs didn't perform any human sacrifice either. They just happened to collect victims by instigating wars, and kill them with excruciatingly painful methods. After all, killing these people (or maybe "kill" is politically incorrect, too) was their tribal custom of the time, we need to keep in mind their religious and cultural context, too.

Very bizarre argument, Hassan. Also, Aisha was his favourite wife.

Quote from: Hassan
But if you do - then you must apply it to all men who married young brides.

Yes, why not? Also, is there evidence that child-marriages were so widespread, especially when the victim was Aisha's age?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #16 - March 08, 2009, 08:56 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on March 08, 2009, 08:42 PM
Quote from: Hassan
I just don't find the term paedophile - a fairly modern concept - to be a correct term for those very many people who married young brides.

Genocide, as a term, was also coined very recently, but this doesn't change the fact that many different ethnic groups were wiped out throughout history.

If we employ your line of thinking, Aztecs didn't perform any human sacrifice either. They just happened to collect victims by instigating wars, and kill them with excruciatingly painful methods. After all, killing these people (or maybe "kill" is politically incorrect, too) was their tribal custom of the time, we need to keep in mind their religious and cultural context, too.

Very bizarre argument, Hassan. Also, Aisha was his favourite wife.

Quote from: Hassan
But if you do - then you must apply it to all men who married young brides.

Yes, why not? Also, is there evidence that child-marriages were so widespread, especially when the victim was Aisha's age?

OK, if you feel happy applying the term paedophile to men who married 12, 13, 14 or 15 year-old brides, fine.

I do not find it either accurate or helpful.

I do think that Aisha's age is a very important issue to raise when discussing whether Muhammad was a role-model for all time. But I always avoid using the word paedophile as I don't believe it helps strengthen my argument at all.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #17 - March 08, 2009, 09:20 PM

His marriage to Aisha was always a sticking point with me...besides her young age there is the question of consent. The potential bride must give consent for a marriage to be considered halal...she cannot be forced to marry (all though that is a common practice as well in the Muslim world) Obviously Aisha was too young to give her consent to being married off...to the Prophet no less...the standard for which other Muslims should strive...so how was that considered and Islamically correct marriage just from the consent of the potential brides perspective?

Something Ive always wondered.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #18 - March 08, 2009, 09:28 PM

Quote from: coolred38 on March 08, 2009, 09:20 PM
His marriage to Aisha was always a sticking point with me...besides her young age there is the question of consent. The potential bride must give consent for a marriage to be considered halal...she cannot be forced to marry (all though that is a common practice as well in the Muslim world) Obviously Aisha was too young to give her consent to being married off...to the Prophet no less...the standard for which other Muslims should strive...so how was that considered and Islamically correct marriage just from the consent of the potential brides perspective?

Something Ive always wondered.

The silence of the virgin is considered an acceptance.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #19 - March 08, 2009, 09:31 PM

Silence if she knows what the hells going on and agrees to it...in Aishas own words she had no idea what was happening to her...just that she was being prettied up for a meeting with the Prophet...and next thing she knew...she was betrothed...how can that be considered consent by silence...silence due to ignorance cant be deemed Islamically halal can it?
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #20 - March 08, 2009, 09:38 PM

Technically, you couldn't call him a pedophile. You would call him a hebephile, because he waited till adolescence to consummate the marriage.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #21 - March 08, 2009, 10:00 PM

I tend to agree with Hassan that the term pedophile is not beneficial for CoeM. For FFI it is okay, FFI's raison d'etre is to prove certain points. Even on All_brains site it is okay, as that site became mostly a point to discuss the details of islam.

But on this site, the term should come out, only if someone is actively enquiring about it.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #22 - March 08, 2009, 10:01 PM

"Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children"

- that's the most common definition I can find of pedophilia, and Muhammad's actions don't really fit within it. By definition, it has to be 'abnormal'... and it was totally normal for guys in that period. His example simply doesn't fit within that definition.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #23 - March 08, 2009, 10:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 08, 2009, 08:56 PM
OK, if you feel happy applying the term paedophile to men who married 12, 13, 14 or 15 year-old brides, fine.

I do not find it either accurate or helpful.

I do think that Aisha's age is a very important issue to raise when discussing whether Muhammad was a role-model for all time. But I always avoid using the word paedophile as I don't believe it helps strengthen my argument at all.

But we aren't talking about someone who married a twelve year old. We're talking about someone who married a six year old and started fucking her when she was nine. That's a bit more extreme, don't you think?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #24 - March 08, 2009, 10:18 PM

Quote from: Variable on March 08, 2009, 10:01 PM
"Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children"

- that's the most common definition I can find of pedophilia, and Muhammad's actions don't really fit within it. By definition, it has to be 'abnormal'... and it was totally normal for guys in that period. His example simply doesn't fit within that definition.

When psychiatrists describe something as abnormal, they don't mean unusual in any given society, they mean relative to "normal" sexuality, as defined by the psychiatric profession. Hence, a sexual interest in children is described as abnormal, regardless of what society it happens in, nor how common it is.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #25 - March 08, 2009, 10:42 PM

Quote from: Variable on March 08, 2009, 10:01 PM
"Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children"

- that's the most common definition I can find of pedophilia, and Muhammad's actions don't really fit within it. By definition, it has to be 'abnormal'... and it was totally normal for guys in that period. His example simply doesn't fit within that definition.

Aisha was Mohammad's favourite wife. He was in the position to get any woman he wanted, but he preferred to have sex with a child. Mohammad was so interested in Aisha that he invented (or perhaps, indeed experienced) a dream where Allah "instructed" him to sleep with her. Doesn't this denote an abnormal interest? He went out of his way to have sex with Aisha.

Is there any proof at all that raping children was acceptable in pre-Islamic Arab society?

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #26 - March 08, 2009, 10:50 PM

Quote from: Baal on March 08, 2009, 10:00 PM
I tend to agree with Hassan that the term pedophile is not beneficial for CoeM. For FFI it is okay, FFI's raison d'etre is to prove certain points. Even on All_brains site it is okay, as that site became mostly a point to discuss the details of islam.

But on this site, the term should come out, only if someone is actively enquiring about it.

There is no reason to be politically correct. Mohammad's pedophilia is one of his worst traits, there is nothing wrong with denouncing it. I agree that calling Mohammad a pedophile all the time can be counter-productive, especially in the case of a new Muslim member, but there is nothing wrong with calling him one... because he was one. He fits the definition, and that's all that matters.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #27 - March 08, 2009, 10:57 PM

Firstly , the word paedophile literally means ' lover of children ' - children as in prepubescents , the word has been increasingly applied to people who have sex with children who are under the age of consent , there is abit of a grey area because what was originally a medical term is now widely used in a legal context . Obviously the age of consent varies in different countries and different eras. Whatever way you look at it , a six year old is a child and there's no question that Mohammed was a paedophile .
You may well argue that cultural norms were different a millennium ago ( though I'm sceptical as to whether any society ever considered six year olds as appropriate sexual partners ) , but the fact is progress in any human society has come about through a handful of people having the insight and moral courage to question the norm and recognise when something is wrong .
Someone who is held up by a large section of the world's population as a prophet and exemplar really ought to be among that number . Mohammed is not.
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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #28 - March 08, 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote from: aife
though I'm sceptical as to whether any society ever considered six year olds as appropriate sexual partners

I'm sceptical about that, too.

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Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
Reply #29 - March 09, 2009, 03:15 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on March 08, 2009, 10:42 PM
Is there any proof at all that raping children was acceptable in pre-Islamic Arab society?

Prior to marrying Muhammad, Ayesha had been engaged with Jubayr ibn Mu'tim which suggests that pedophilic marriage was not uncommon among the pre-Islamic Arabs.

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