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Theme Changer

 Topic: Mohammad, the Pedophile

 (Read 138654 times)
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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #90 - March 11, 2009, 09:01 AM

    Quote from: Variable
    The sickness is in the society, not the individual... and because of that, I can't see how the Prophet himself fits the definition of 'pedophile'.

    Can you provide extensive evidence that pre-Islamic Arabic society condoned or encouraged child rape and pedophilia?

    Even if your statement were true, Mohammad would still be a pedophile. We could add that he lived in a society where pedophilia was acceptable, which I will not believe before significant evidence has been provided, but that wouldn't absolve him from individual guilt. You quote ancient Greeks and their tradition of pederasty, but what makes you think that an individual Greek living back then isn't somehow a pederast because society accepted it? So, we cannot blame Aztecs for human sacrifice, because their society encouraged it?

    Blame the society... the greatest, ever-present aide of any criminal. Society is made up of individuals, as long as individuals continuously affirm the diseases of society, there will be no progress.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I think diplomatic reasons are perfectly valid ones and I do the same. I think one can make one's point much more powerfully through carefully-phrased and reasoned words rather than pushing buttons you know are only going to bring about an emotional (and often irrational) response.

    This is a completely different argument. Avoiding the word "pedophile" for diplomatical reasons can be acceptable in some contexts, though I will never do it. Trying to reword or deny Mohammad's pedophilia, on the other hand, is illogical.

    It is not different from trying to remove Holocaust education from school curricula in order not to "offend Muslims."

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #91 - March 11, 2009, 09:24 AM

    @ Baal,

    term exists in Arabic, but colloquially;


    talking here specifically about dialects in the Arabian peninsula;

    a pedo. in Saudi could be called:


    wer3anji or bezranji.

    ورعنجي أو بزرنجي

    If I call anyone those words in arabic, the person in front of me will laugh at me so hard like they laughed at adil imam in the play of "Witness who saw nothing", the scene where Adil describes how the murderer called him "Ya Khorong".

    ===========

    Cheesy:D

    Love da play and the scene,

    don't say these words to a khaliji tho.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #92 - March 11, 2009, 09:30 AM

    I could be wrong, I've never asked a diverse panel of phsychological profilers... but until I do, I'll stay away from that terminology.

    It revolts us today, but I suppose youth was seen as a thing of untouched beauty in those days - much as some see virgins or youthful looks today.  Even today a 50yr Hollywood actor marrying a 18 yr old girl does not turn eyes, as it is seen as "its because he can"

    My attitutude would be totally different though if he slept with her as a pre-pubescent.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #93 - March 11, 2009, 11:07 AM

    Quote from: Variable
    I disagree, I don't think psychiatrists meant that.  In ancient Greece, a male would grow up with the idea that he'd have a young helper who'd pleasure him sexually being normalized.  It'd be expected of him.  Because we here, in this time consider such thing a disgusting travesty doesn't mean any of us wouldn't do the same thing if we were brought up to think it was expected of us as well.  Any kind of absolute moral compass that might clue us in would be totally re-alligned by the societal standards.


    Yes, and when historians are describing that today they use the word pederasty. 

    Quote
    The sickness is in the society, not the individual... and because of that, I can't see how the Prophet himself fits the definition of 'pedophile'.


    The sickness of pederasty was in the society of Ancient Greece, incest in Ancient Egypt, and apparently paedophilia in 7th century Arabia.  Using our 21st century vocabulary to accurately describe what they did is not the same as making 21st century judgements about their behaviour.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #94 - March 11, 2009, 11:47 AM

    The sickness of pederasty was in the society of Ancient Greece, incest in Ancient Egypt, and apparently paedophilia in 7th century Arabia.  Using our 21st century vocabulary to accurately describe what they did is not the same as making 21st century judgements about their behaviour.


    If I can slightly disagree, I think ancient Egypt & Ancient Greece had attained global superpower status at least once in their history-& they have extensively documented histories. Arabia was an arid unimportant region, coming into the full glare of history only with Islam. Islam had utterly defeated the earlier culture & religion, & tarnished it as a time of jahiliyyah or ignorance. Naturally, history is always written by the winners-& at least the new religion of Islam, as the winner was keen to furnish all evidence of the society it had obliterated as"jahiliyyah", yet we come across women such as Khadijah, who charted her life course with absolute autonomy.

    We can give ample examples of incest from Ancient Egypt, & amply documented evidences of pedarasty from Ancient Greece, we simply don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men in pre Islamic Saudi-all the anecdotal evidence we have is that Saudis didn't question the appropriateness of the marriage, like they questioned Mo's marriage with his former daughter in law Zainab.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #95 - March 11, 2009, 11:54 AM

    Quote from: Rashna
    We can give ample examples of incest from Ancient Egypt, & amply documented evidences of pedarasty from Ancient Greece, we simply don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men in pre Islamic Saudi-all the anecdotal evidence we have is that Saudis didn't question the appropriateness of the marriage, like they questioned Mo's marriage with his former daughter in law Zainab.

    Exactly.  Afro

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #96 - March 11, 2009, 11:55 AM

    don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men

    Dont think this is true, he married her at 9, and consummated at 12 (i.e. he held on until after puberty)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #97 - March 11, 2009, 12:00 PM

    don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men

    Dont think this is true, he married her at 9, and consummated at 12 (i.e. he held on until after puberty)

    Why do you assume that? All the Hadiths I know on this matter specify the age of marriage as 6, and the age of consummation as 9.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #98 - March 11, 2009, 12:06 PM

    don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men

    Dont think this is true, he married her at 9, and consummated at 12 (i.e. he held on until after puberty)

    You are mistaken, dear Islame:

    http://www.forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=77#p3079

    http://www.forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=77#p1214

    She was nine, and there is no evidence Arabic girls on average reached puberty at nine in pre-Islamic era.

    Age at menarche has actually been decreasing in modern times.



    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197&start=41

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #99 - March 11, 2009, 12:09 PM

    There's no evidence Aisha reached puberty at 9.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #100 - March 11, 2009, 12:16 PM

    don't have such evidences of 9 year olds immediately consummating their marriages with very old men

    Dont think this is true, he married her at 9, and consummated at 12 (i.e. he held on until after puberty)

    ===========

    Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

        Narrated Hisham's father:

       
    Quote
    Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.


    Bukhari.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #101 - March 11, 2009, 12:38 PM

    OK guys, our Holy Prophet (pbuh) is a paedo

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #102 - March 11, 2009, 03:14 PM

    I could be wrong, I've never asked a diverse panel of phsychological profilers... but until I do, I'll stay away from that terminology.

    It revolts us today, but I suppose youth was seen as a thing of untouched beauty in those days - much as some see virgins or youthful looks today.  Even today a 50yr Hollywood actor marrying a 18 yr old girl does not turn eyes, as it is seen as "its because he can"

    My attitude would be totally different though if he slept with her as a pre-pubescent.


    Turn it around:  50yo Hollywood actress marrying a 18yo man.  Now what?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #103 - March 11, 2009, 03:19 PM

    Turn it around:  50yo Hollywood actress marrying a 18yo man.  Now what?


    Used to happen in Jahiliyyah or age of ignorance pre Islam in Saudi Arabia. 40 year old super successful businesswoman Khadija married her 25 year old employee Mo.They also probably had a pre nup wherehe was forbidden from taking another wife, just like pre nups today.

    Jahiliyyah did it ages before Hollywood was born!  great

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #104 - March 11, 2009, 03:23 PM

    I could be wrong, I've never asked a diverse panel of phsychological profilers... but until I do, I'll stay away from that terminology.

    It revolts us today, but I suppose youth was seen as a thing of untouched beauty in those days - much as some see virgins or youthful looks today.  Even today a 50yr Hollywood actor marrying a 18 yr old girl does not turn eyes, as it is seen as "its because he can"

    My attitude would be totally different though if he slept with her as a pre-pubescent.


    Turn it around:  50yo Hollywood actress marrying a 18yo man.  Now what?


    Now nothing.  Demi Moore is about 50 and her hubby is early 20s, no big deal is ever made about it. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #105 - March 11, 2009, 03:44 PM

    I could be wrong, I've never asked a diverse panel of phsychological profilers... but until I do, I'll stay away from that terminology.

    It revolts us today, but I suppose youth was seen as a thing of untouched beauty in those days - much as some see virgins or youthful looks today.  Even today a 50yr Hollywood actor marrying a 18 yr old girl does not turn eyes, as it is seen as "its because he can"

    My attitude would be totally different though if he slept with her as a pre-pubescent.


    Turn it around:  50yo Hollywood actress marrying a 18yo man.  Now what?


    Now nothing.  Demi Moore is about 50 and her hubby is early 20s, no big deal is ever made about it. 


    Fair enough.  I know its been going on since the beginning of time, but I asked for 2 reasons:  [1] When I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, mismatched ages like that were referred to as "robbing the cradle", "mother/father thing", and similar disparaging terms, and [2] the matter does sometimes get discussed in the media as though it was a new thing.

    Re: Demi Moore.  The woman looks 30.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #106 - March 11, 2009, 04:05 PM

    I think once you get to Hollywood A list levels of rich and famous you can pretty much do what you like, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #107 - March 11, 2009, 04:25 PM

    I think once you get to Hollywood A list levels of rich and famous you can pretty much do what you like, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman.


    I think those people would do it anyway, celebrity or not.  Their egos are that big.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #108 - March 12, 2009, 12:42 AM

    Can you provide extensive evidence that pre-Islamic Arabic society condoned or encouraged child rape and pedophilia?


    No.  For argument's sake, let's say that marriage to children was common-place.


    Quote
    Even if your statement were true, Mohammad would still be a pedophile. We could add that he lived in a society where pedophilia was acceptable, which I will not believe before significant evidence has been provided, but that wouldn't absolve him from individual guilt. You quote ancient Greeks and their tradition of pederasty, but what makes you think that an individual Greek living back then isn't somehow a pederast because society accepted it? So, we cannot blame Aztecs for human sacrifice, because their society encouraged it?

    Blame the society... the greatest, ever-present aide of any criminal. Society is made up of individuals, as long as individuals continuously affirm the diseases of society, there will be no progress.


    Future societies may have restrictions in place that to us, seem strange.  The society may develop in such a way that killing animals for their meat is considered a barbaric, criminal act.  In fact there are groups who espouse this view now. 

    To them, we would all be guilty of a heinous crime, even though from our point of view, all we've done is eat a cheese burger.  There are any number of examples in which present day practices are increasingly scrutinized and may eventually develop into a future taboo. 

    Not many would say that someone enjoying a steak, or a parent who had their son circumcised were guilty of some kind of moral transgression in the present day.  Those that would may one day become the majority... but that still wouldn't make those folks evil-doers... to them, in their society, their actions are perfectly normal. 
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #109 - March 12, 2009, 10:40 AM

    Can you provide extensive evidence that pre-Islamic Arabic society condoned or encouraged child rape and pedophilia?


    No.  For argument's sake, let's say that marriage to children was common-place.


    Quote
    Even if your statement were true, Mohammad would still be a pedophile. We could add that he lived in a society where pedophilia was acceptable, which I will not believe before significant evidence has been provided, but that wouldn't absolve him from individual guilt. You quote ancient Greeks and their tradition of pederasty, but what makes you think that an individual Greek living back then isn't somehow a pederast because society accepted it? So, we cannot blame Aztecs for human sacrifice, because their society encouraged it?

    Blame the society... the greatest, ever-present aide of any criminal. Society is made up of individuals, as long as individuals continuously affirm the diseases of society, there will be no progress.


    Future societies may have restrictions in place that to us, seem strange.  The society may develop in such a way that killing animals for their meat is considered a barbaric, criminal act.  In fact there are groups who espouse this view now. 

    To them, we would all be guilty of a heinous crime, even though from our point of view, all we've done is eat a cheese burger.  There are any number of examples in which present day practices are increasingly scrutinized and may eventually develop into a future taboo. 

    Not many would say that someone enjoying a steak, or a parent who had their son circumcised were guilty of some kind of moral transgression in the present day.  Those that would may one day become the majority... but that still wouldn't make those folks evil-doers... to them, in their society, their actions are perfectly normal. 




    Well said V. It's good to come across sane, level headed posts like yours and its quite a contrast against the puerile, knee-jerk, immature views of the restricted brain cells on display on this thread . No one likes paedophilia, but get things in perspective folks. Think about, your ancestors were probably also at it, in fact your very existence may have depended on the union of an adult and a 'child', who fucking knows? So in the meantime, find something else to bleat about...erm, you know who Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #110 - March 12, 2009, 12:49 PM

    Quote from: Jack Torrance
    Think about, your ancestors were probably also at it, in fact your very existence may have depended on the union of an adult and a 'child', who fucking knows?

    Well now, that's impossible. One of the defining attributes of a child is their reproductive immaturity.

    Having sex with kids is unnecessary and harmful under any circumstances.

    And even if some of my ancestors were paedophiles, none of them were prophets, I don't regard any of them as Insaan al-Kamil.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #111 - March 12, 2009, 12:54 PM

    I'm willing to give Muhammad the benefit of the doubt regarding the assertion that he had a paedophilic fetish. Having said that there isn't a 10 year old I have ever found remotely attractive on a sexual level. However I can accept that it was not considered reprehensible back in his day. That still, however, illustrates that he is not a man whose example should be followed in this day and age.

    The greater issue with Allah's apostle is his inability to keep the fire burning his balls in check. Aisha (radiallahu anha) was obviously the most disgusting and lowest point. However there are other examples, eg. when he saw Juwayriyyah.

    Aisha remembers, 'She was a most beautiful woman. She captivated every man who saw her. She came to the Apostle to ask his help in the matter. As soon as I saw her at the door of my room I took a dislike for her, for I knew that he would see her as I saw her.' (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, p.493).

    Then of course there is the matter of Allah (SWT) revealing to His Messenger that adopted sons are not sons because he wanted to marry Zainab (RA). Fatima Mernissi quotes Tabari as saying that Zaynab was 'the most beautiful woman of her time.'

    Sound familiar?

    He continues, 'One day the Prophet went to look for Zayd at his house. He put his hand on the door and opened it. Seeing Zaynab seated in her apartment with her head uncovered, he asked her, as he turned his face away, the whereabouts of Zayd. She replied that he had gone out. She made a great impression on him, and not wanting to look at her a second time, he closed his eyes and said: 'God be praised, God is great, God who commands hearts and eyes!' And he went out.' (Mernissi, The Veil and the Male Elite, p. 104)

    Another issue is Rasulullah's hypocrisy when it came to his own daughter Fatima (AS). For example when Fatima was nine,

    'Abu Bakr and Umar were among those who asked to marry Fatima, but the Prophet (S) rejected them too, and said that she was still too young for marriage.' (Abu Muhammad Ordoni, Fatima the Gracious.)

    Also when polgyamy was concerned.

    I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." (Bukhari)

    However, I don't think his true love for Khadija (AS) can be diminished. Aisha, who was jealous of several wives, (including Umm Salama)  maintained that:

    I did not feel jealous of any of the wives of the Prophet as much as I did of Khadija though I did not see her, but the Prophet used to mention her very often, and when ever he slaughtered a sheep, he would cut its parts and send them to the women friends of Khadija. When I sometimes said to him, "(You treat Khadija in such a way) as if there is no woman on earth except Khadija," he would say, "Khadija was such-and-such, and from her I had children." (Bukhari)

    Incidentally Shia have ahadith that inflate Aisha's age, but this is clearly to satisfy their sectarian interests as they also want to show that she was actually married (rather than merely engaged) to Jubayr ibn Mut'im. Others accept Aisha's young age, for example:

    After the death of his first loyal wife, Khadjjah, and two years before his emigration to Medina, the Prophet wedded 'A'ishah, and a year and a half after the emigration, in the lunar month of Shawwal and after the battle of Badr, on the insistence of her father Abu Bakr, took her to his own house. When the Prophet died, she was only eighteen years old. Thus Umm al-Mu'minin spent only eight years and five months of her life in the Prophet's house. (Sayyid Murtada Askar, The Role of Aishah in the History of Islam, p.28).

    Ayatollah Fadlallah too replied to an enquirer:

    Q: Is it morally and traditionally permissible for a man of 32 to marry of woman who is barely 17 years old?

    A: Why not: The prophet(p.), our role model, married Aisha when she wad 10 years old while he was 53 years. If both parties accept the marriage than there is nothing wrong with it.


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #112 - March 12, 2009, 01:00 PM

    There's this pro pedophilia group in Netherlands,
    www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305423,00.html

    Maybe this should allowed freely, a Mullah Krekar advocating stoning of teens caught making out should also be allowed freely & so should any new self proclaimed Prophet preaching that the majority faith's idols\ places of worship are rubbish & they should be smashed given half a chance?

    If we don't do this, we run the risk of being called "intolerant'? right?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #113 - March 12, 2009, 01:08 PM

    Sure they should be allowed to freedom of speech. They should also be thoroughly under investigation and should be smashed if they actually perpetrate paeophilia or if there is any evidence that they are involved in it in any way, shape or form. The rest of us have the right to combat their ideas - as perverse and sick as they are to us.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #114 - March 12, 2009, 01:12 PM

    I'm willing to give Muhammad the benefit of the doubt regarding the assertion that he had a paedophilic fetish. Having said that there isn't a 10 year old I have ever found remotely attractive on a sexual level. However I can accept that it was not considered reprehensible back in his day. That still, however, illustrates that he is not a man whose example should be followed in this day and age.

    The greater issue with Allah's apostle is his inability to keep the fire burning his balls in check. Aisha (radiallahu anha) was obviously the most disgusting and lowest point. However there are other examples, eg. when he saw Juwayriyyah.

    Aisha remembers, 'She was a most beautiful woman. She captivated every man who saw her. She came to the Apostle to ask his help in the matter. As soon as I saw her at the door of my room I took a dislike for her, for I knew that he would see her as I saw her.' (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, p.493).

    Then of course there is the matter of Allah (SWT) revealing to His Messenger that adopted sons are not sons because he wanted to marry Zainab (RA). Fatima Mernissi quotes Tabari as saying that Zaynab was 'the most beautiful woman of her time.'

    Sound familiar?

    He continues, 'One day the Prophet went to look for Zayd at his house. He put his hand on the door and opened it. Seeing Zaynab seated in her apartment with her head uncovered, he asked her, as he turned his face away, the whereabouts of Zayd. She replied that he had gone out. She made a great impression on him, and not wanting to look at her a second time, he closed his eyes and said: 'God be praised, God is great, God who commands hearts and eyes!' And he went out.' (Mernissi, The Veil and the Male Elite, p. 104)

    Another issue is Rasulullah's hypocrisy when it came to his own daughter Fatima (AS). For example when Fatima was nine,

    'Abu Bakr and Umar were among those who asked to marry Fatima, but the Prophet (S) rejected them too, and said that she was still too young for marriage.' (Abu Muhammad Ordoni, Fatima the Gracious.)

    Also when polgyamy was concerned.

    I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." (Bukhari)

    However, I don't think his true love for Khadija (AS) can be diminished. Aisha, who was jealous of several wives, (including Umm Salama)  maintained that:

    I did not feel jealous of any of the wives of the Prophet as much as I did of Khadija though I did not see her, but the Prophet used to mention her very often, and when ever he slaughtered a sheep, he would cut its parts and send them to the women friends of Khadija. When I sometimes said to him, "(You treat Khadija in such a way) as if there is no woman on earth except Khadija," he would say, "Khadija was such-and-such, and from her I had children." (Bukhari)

    Incidentally Shia have ahadith that inflate Aisha's age, but this is clearly to satisfy their sectarian interests as they also want to show that she was actually married (rather than merely engaged) to Jubayr ibn Mut'im. Others accept Aisha's young age, for example:

    After the death of his first loyal wife, Khadjjah, and two years before his emigration to Medina, the Prophet wedded 'A'ishah, and a year and a half after the emigration, in the lunar month of Shawwal and after the battle of Badr, on the insistence of her father Abu Bakr, took her to his own house. When the Prophet died, she was only eighteen years old. Thus Umm al-Mu'minin spent only eight years and five months of her life in the Prophet's house. (Sayyid Murtada Askar, The Role of Aishah in the History of Islam, p.28).

    Ayatollah Fadlallah too replied to an enquirer:

    Q: Is it morally and traditionally permissible for a man of 32 to marry of woman who is barely 17 years old?

    A: Why not: The prophet(p.), our role model, married Aisha when she wad 10 years old while he was 53 years. If both parties accept the marriage than there is nothing wrong with it.

    Safiyah and Maria should be on that list too. He married and consummated his marriage with Safiyah the day after he allowed the torture and killing of her husband for treasure.

    As for Maria, she was his concubine (and a very beautiful one) whom he slept with on Hafsa's night which sparked a massive row amongst his wives. Allah gave him permission to sleep with her even if it made his wives unhappy, Mo also threatened to divorce his wives if they complained about it.

    Also jealousy was not only felt by Aisha, the was quite a bit of rivalry between his wives from what I've heard.


  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #115 - March 12, 2009, 01:14 PM

    @ abdalwali,

    actually it's been mentioned in several books that Jubair divorced Aisha, (ie they were married).


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #116 - March 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

    Theres a Question that just came to my mind.
    For males it is normal to feel attracted to adult females. Some physical characteristics of the females attract the male. (Breasts, Butt, Lips, Hips etc.) The females devolope this characteristics from age 14 to 20.

    Children are often seen as androgyne, wich means they are not clearly male or female in term of physique. They dont have the characteristics to attract the other Gender.

    So, menstruation for most girls starts in the age between 10 and 14. But this dousnt mean there bodys are prepared for pregnancy. Its more of a devoloping proces. The Hormones affect the metabolism and puperty starts with menstruation.

    It takes longer for the body to devolope the as hourglass known physique of women.

    A Pedophile is a person who feels attracted to androgyne bodysiluettes. Mostly with some psychological attraction to innocence or purity accosiated with the physical characteristics of children.

    So, if a man desires Sex with a girl (or boy) because he feels attracted to her undevoloped Body, hes a pedophile.

    I cant speak about Mo' in this topic. I dont think he was a pedophile, and it honestly dousnt matter, because we cannot proof it. He married a little Girl, maybe had sex with her. But i think in the cultural backrund of the time we can not blame this behavior.

    But as far as the character of Mo' is discribed in the Koran i think we should focus on the crimes he commited that even in his time were clearly crimes.

    Since the days where we were just Hunters wearing furs, and only tribal society existed, it was a law to not kill another Human in your own community. ( im not taling about tribal wars. ) Its not a law *made* by man, but by nature for a species who is decent at many things, but needs a pack to survive, because more specialiced spezies would have killed them if they wouldnt have formed packs and later tribes.

    So, if Mo' out of his sciziphrenia killed a human because the voices in his head told him to, then he is a murderer. And everyone who followes the word of a murderer is in my book not a person i can respect.








    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #117 - March 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

    I'm willing to give Muhammad the benefit of the doubt regarding the assertion that he had a paedophilic fetish. Having said that there isn't a 10 year old I have ever found remotely attractive on a sexual level. However I can accept that it was not considered reprehensible back in his day. That still, however, illustrates that he is not a man whose example should be followed in this day and age.

    However, Muhammad married Sawdah bint Zam?ah merely days after his first wife Khadija's death. He had an (adult) partner even before he married little Ayesha... So his marriage to a little girl indicates positive preference?

    Ayatollah Fadlallah too replied to an enquirer:

    Q: Is it morally and traditionally permissible for a man of 32 to marry of woman who is barely 17 years old?

    A: Why not: The prophet(p.), our role model, married Aisha when she wad 10 years old while he was 53 years. If both parties accept the marriage than there is nothing wrong with it.

    Except that in the first case both parties are adults.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #118 - March 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

    @ abdalwali,

    actually it's been mentioned in several books that Jubair divorced Aisha, (ie they were married).

    What books? Is it mentioned in any hadiths?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #119 - March 12, 2009, 01:21 PM

    Sure they should be allowed to freedom of speech. They should also be thoroughly under investigation and should be smashed if they actually perpetrate paeophilia or if there is any evidence that they are involved in it in any way, shape or form. The rest of us have the right to combat their ideas - as perverse and sick as they are to us.


    Aren't you the father of a daughter abdalwali? Mullah Krekar happily has asylum in Norway, where I don't see him imposing his views, but that is what he aims for in his Kurdistan, where he seems to have quite a chance of success, which is why he has been driven out of there, similar to another Prophet.... Would it be intolerant if a Kurdish teen's dad, unlike an Aussie girl's dad, wants Mullah Krekar removed from his country? The Kurdish girl's father might be extremely tolerant  of diverse opinions, but he might want to draw the line at anyone likely to endanger his daughter's safety.

    Likewise would it be very intolerant if a devout pagan wanted a virulent iconoclast, who poses great threat to his or her faith, & seems likely to interfere with it violently as soon as he acquires the ability, wants such a man removed? That pagan might otherwise be very tolerant of conversion to another faith, or of Jewish halacha... Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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