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 Topic: Mohammad, the Pedophile

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #510 - January 26, 2010, 01:38 AM
    @ tara

    look the verse up.

    As for polygamy, yeah, I know that religious Muslims defend it as something positive when in fact it is disrespectful... but you're missing my point... some women have low self esteem... some even have such low self-esteem that they would accept becoming some married man's mistress.

    I was once banned in one day from an Arabic Salfi site because I said polygamy is disrespectful to women... they didn't ban me immediately for saying this... they banned me after I responded to a long post raving about the benifits of polygamy. My response was very short.. I only cited a Hadith from Bukhari to shut them up.. they deleted my post including the Hadith almost instantaneously and banned me immediately... I have the Hadith if you're interested.. .you can use it to tease those who praise polygamy, throw it in their face, but be careful, they might take their anger out on you.  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #511 - January 26, 2010, 01:42 AM
    Quote
    Some men don't mind becoming a married woman's gigolo - doesn't mean polyandry isn't stupid.

    Women who have low self esteem can have an affair and extricate themselves from it without societal, cultural, legal or religious impediment. The misogynistic prison cell of polygamy is incarceration and misery eternal.



    Speaking of polyandry, it reminds me of the debate I had with muslims on ummah forum.
    When I was given loads of different reasons why polygamy is useful, I gave them the example of how polyandry has been practiced by some tribes in tibet and it proved to be practical and useful for them. However, most of the muslims just called it"gross and unnatural" yet polyagmy was still natural. Why is polygamy practical but polyandry isn't?
    Polgamy works for some cultures and polyandry has also worked for some cultures. Now since Islam only allows polygamy, polyandry just becomes ridiculous?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #512 - January 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
    Quote from: billy on January 26, 2010, 01:33 AM


    Some men don't mind becoming a married woman's gigolo - doesn't mean polyandry isn't stupid.

    Women who have low self esteem can have an affair and extricate themselves from it without societal, cultural, legal or religious impediment. The misogynistic prison cell of polygamy is incarceration and misery eternal.




    @ billy

    are you referring to divorce complications?

    As for men, accepting polyandry, and assuming that there are many such men compared to women (accepting polygamy), the problem really lies in finding which baby has which father.

    In any case, billy, even in nature, it's very rare to find species where males accept being only one of many partners to the same female.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #513 - January 26, 2010, 01:46 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:38 AM
    @ tara

    look the verse up.

    As for polygamy, yeah, I know that religious Muslims defend it as something positive when in fact it is disrespectful... but you're missing my point... some women have low self esteem... some even have such low self-esteem that they would accept becoming some married man's mistress.


    How can a divine book be disrespectful to women?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #514 - January 26, 2010, 01:51 AM
    You keep missing the point.

    Which is more disrespectful? A woman who is willing to become some married man's mistress or one who is willing to become one of his wives.. .both situations are disrespectful, but the latter is far less disrespectful and besides, no one is enforcing this on the woman. 
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #515 - January 26, 2010, 01:51 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:43 AM

    As for men, accepting polyandry, and assuming that there are many such men compared to women (accepting polygamy), the problem really lies in finding which baby has which father.


    Actually for societies where polyandry is practiced, the biological father doesn't mean anything. All the 4 men that share the wife act like father to their wives child and take care of it. It has proven to improve family ties for their tribes. Biological paternitiy is not an issue for them and it works fine for them.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #516 - January 26, 2010, 01:54 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
    @ billy

    are you referring to divorce complications?


    Do you really have to ask? The psychic, social, emotional toll polygamy takes is untold, on the individual, and on women collectively, and because of that, on society as a whole. It is a real social evil that is a structural institution of pure misogyny.


    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
    In any case, billy, even in nature, it's very rare to find species where males accept being only one of many partners to the same female.


    Who cares? We are of superior intelligence etc etc. The point stands, its stupid and wicked.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #517 - January 26, 2010, 01:55 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:51 AM
    You keep missing the point.

    Which is more disrespectful? A woman who is willing to become some married man's mistress or one who is willing to become one of his wives.. .both situations are disrespectful, but the latter is far less disrespectful and besides, no one is enforcing this on the woman. 



    You are deluded as to the coercive and oppressive social systems in Islamic societies that women face in regards to polygamy. There is no moral equivalence between the two examples at all.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #518 - January 26, 2010, 01:55 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:51 AM
    You keep missing the point.

    Which is more disrespectful? A woman who is willing to become some married man's mistress or one who is willing to become one of his wives.. .both situations are disrespectful, but the latter is far less disrespectful and besides, no one is enforcing this on the woman.  


    It's much more disrespectful that a man is legally ALLOWED to have mutliple partners but the woman cannot. thats why it's so fucked up because a woman is expected to share her husband but a man can't share his wife.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #519 - January 26, 2010, 01:59 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
    In any case, billy, even in nature, it's very rare to find species where males accept being only one of many partners to the same female.


    It's rather ridiculous when muslims try to prove Islamic values through giving examples of "nature".
    So we are comparing ourselves to other species now?
    Animals have sex without any commitment except maybe penguins I think. Are muslim men allowed that?
    Plenty of female species go around having sex with many different males in nature! My cat was a total whore!
    Many animals also exhibit homosexual acts.
    So whats your point?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #520 - January 26, 2010, 02:02 AM
    @ tara

    Anyway, next time you visit an Islamic site raving about the benifits of polygamy, throw them this Hadith and watch the ensuing mayhem (assuming they wouldn't delete your post).

    Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 157:
    Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

    I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me."

    Muslim: Book 031, Number 6002:

    'Ali b. Husain reported that Miswar b. Makhramah informed him that 'Ali b. Abi Talib sent the proposal of marriage to the daughter of Abu Jahl as he had Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), (as his wife). When Fatima heard about it, she came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: The people say that you never feel angry on account of your daughters and now 'Ali is going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. Makhramah said: Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) rose up and I heard him reciting Tashahhud and say: Now to the point. I gave a daughter of mine (Zainab) to Abu'l-'As b. Rabi, and he spoke to me and spoke the truth. Verily Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, is a part of me and I do not approve that she may be put to any trial and by Allah, the daughter of Allah's Messenger cannot be combined with the daughter of God's enemy (as the co-wives) of one person. Thereupon 'Ali gave up (the idea of his intended) marriage. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zuhri with the same chain of transmitters.

    [I recommend you show them the first one ONLY... no need to give them a reason to change the subject and make it about Abu Jahl, etc.. the first one is more than enough]



    @ billy

    Quote
    You are deluded as to the coercive and oppressive social systems in Islamic societies that women face in regards to polygamy. There is no moral equivalence between the two examples at all.


    Ok, so apparently, you're saying women are forced into polygamy as they are forced into marriage by their parents, in general, and Islam sanctions this? (forced marriage?).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #521 - January 26, 2010, 02:08 AM
    Quote
    Ok, so apparently, you're saying women are forced into polygamy as they are forced into marriage by their parents, in general, and Islam sanctions this? (forced marriage?).


    debunker, you can't get away with

    (a) using a worse case scenario in non Islamic society (women with low self esteem having affairs with married men)

    and then

    (b) Pluck out of the sky from the hands of the tooth fairy the best case scenario of pristine perfect idealised Islam according to what Islam sanctions.

    If you want to use real world example (a), use real world examples of the misery, oppression and moral squalor that polygamy institutes in Islamic society, instead of perfect dreamworld example (b)

    Compare like with like.

    We have strayed far off topic on this thread now, into a debate about polygamy, when it is intended for discussing Mohammad and his relationship with pre-pubescent girls. The moderators may decide to split this off - either way its work for them and I apologise to them for straying from the subject, and for everyone else who came here to read the latest on Mo and Aisha. Maybe we should agree to drop the subject from this thread.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #522 - January 26, 2010, 02:19 AM
    @ billy

    Ok, I guess I see your point. Your argument seems to be that since in practice Muslims force marriage on women, then things like polygamy is not a choice either. True, but you have to keep in mind that not all Muslim societies are the same... In fact, within the same society there are different attitudes towards marriage.

    Anyway, back to the topic of the thread.

    I personally believe that any man who is sexually attracted to a girl without any signs of womanhood is sick... it doesn't matter if this man comes from 10,000 years ago or not.. .just like a man who is sexually attracted to his mother is also sick.

    anyway, for those who claim that being sexually attracted to little girls is OK, I always love to show them this verse.
     
     004.006
    YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

    PICKTHAL: Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

    SHAKIR: And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #523 - January 26, 2010, 03:10 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 02:02 AM
    @ tara

    Anyway, next time you visit an Islamic site raving about the benifits of polygamy, throw them this Hadith and watch the ensuing mayhem (assuming they wouldn't delete your post).

    Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 157:
    Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

    I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me."

    I recommend you show them the first one ONLY... no need to give them a reason to change the subject and make it about Abu Jahl, etc.. the first one is more than enough]


    THis hadith just proves that Mohammad had double standards. He had so many wives himself yet he admits that it hurts a woman to be married to a polygamous man.
    So why does QURAN ALLOW polygamy?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #524 - January 26, 2010, 03:17 AM
    @ tara

    what have I been saying all along? No wman is forced to marry a polygamous man... but we do see numerous many examples of women accepting the status of a mistress of a married man. (these cases which surface to the top are only the tip of the ice-berg).

    Why does Quran allow divorce?

    Anyway, the Hadith is for you to show your Muslim friends who love to pretend that polygamy is great!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #525 - January 26, 2010, 03:29 AM
    Quote
    @ tara

    what have I been saying all along? No wman is forced to marry a polygamous man... but we do see numerous many examples of women accepting the status of a mistress of a married man. (these cases which surface to the top are only the tip of the ice-berg).


    No one is forcing a man to stay with a woman who has mulitple partners so why is that not allowed? Islam should have allowed it and then whoever didn't think it was right wouldn't have practiced it and then it would have been fair to both sexes.
    The fact that Islam allows men to keep multiple partners, (i never said forces) is totally sexist.  
    Secondly, yes many men cheat on their wives and many women also cheat on their husbands. But Islam doesn't allow women to legally keep 4 men does it?

    Quote
    Why does Quran allow divorce?

    Anyway, the Hadith is for you to show your Muslim friends who love to pretend that polygamy is great!


    Well Mohammad had so many wives, so he clearly showed it's not a bad thing!

    .
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #526 - January 26, 2010, 03:39 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 03:17 AM
    @ tara

    what have I been saying all along? No wman is forced to marry a polygamous man... but we do see numerous many examples of women accepting the status of a mistress of a married man. (these cases which surface to the top are only the tip of the ice-berg).

    Why does Quran allow divorce?

    Anyway, the Hadith is for you to show your Muslim friends who love to pretend that polygamy is great!


    For men you mean.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #527 - January 26, 2010, 03:42 AM
    Debunker, you keep mentioning how many women are "ok" being mistresses but its very strange of you not to acknowlegde so many men who have affairs with married women. It's not that uncommon at all and many married women have affairs. Obviously in muslim countries you wont find a woman like that as commonly, but in western countries, it's just as common for a woman to cheat on her husband as it is for a man.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #528 - January 26, 2010, 03:49 AM
    As far as divorce is concerned, a man can verbally divorce his wife and thats legal. A woman cannot do the same and unless her husband divorces her, she has to go to court and obtain a khula/divorce. Why can't she verbally divorce her husband just like he can?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #529 - January 26, 2010, 03:49 AM
    Come on, tara! Even in the West, a woman who has multiple partners is referred to as a whore and a man who has multiple partners is referred to as a stud!

    That's how humans view these things, and pretending that it's otherwise is just you deluding yourself. Men AND women, on average, disrespect a woman who has multiple partners and while they might criticize a man with multiple partners they NEVER views him with the same spectacles.  

     
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #530 - January 26, 2010, 03:53 AM
    Quote from: taraC on January 26, 2010, 03:49 AM
    As far as divorce is concerned, a man can verbally divorce his wife and thats legal. A woman cannot do the same and unless her husband divorces her, she has to go to court and obtain a khula/divorce. Why can't she verbally divorce her husband just like he can?


    A man too needs witnesses to finalize the divorce... a court must be included for both parties.

    By the way, does Pakistan allow Khul'?!! 
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #531 - January 26, 2010, 04:02 AM
    Quote
    Come on, tara! Even in the West, a woman who has multiple partners is referred to as a whore and a man who has multiple partners is referred to as a stud!


    Who calls a man "stud" if he's  sleepin around with random women? Girls call him MAN-WHORE! Most western women have had mulitple partners by the time they are in their twenties just like men do! Onlyy muslim men are obsessed with marrying "virgins".

    Quote
    That's how humans view these things, and pretending that it's otherwise is just you deluding yourself. Men AND women, on average, disrespect a woman who has multiple partners and while they might criticize a man with multiple partners they NEVER views him with the same spectacles.  


    Do you know how many girls are sexually active in highscool? Most girls lose viriginity by the time they are 15-16 and they don't certainly have the same partner all the way till their mid twenties or thirties when they plan to settle down and get married.
    Most girls I perseonally know have had sex with atleast 3 different guys.
    No one likes a man or a woman who has CHEATED on their spouse/girlfriend but having more than one sexual partner is a whole different thing.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #532 - January 26, 2010, 04:08 AM
    Oh please tara, don't attack an argument I never made...

    I'm talking about a person who keeps multiple partners AT the SAME TIME... even in, the West such a person is looked at differently, depending on their sex.

    Please don't pretend this is not the case... you'd be only deluding yourself.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #533 - January 26, 2010, 04:31 AM
    Quote
    Oh please tara, don't attack an argument I never made...

    I'm talking about a person who keeps multiple partners AT the SAME TIME... even in, the West such a person is looked at differently, depending on their sex.
     Please don't pretend this is not the case... you'd be only deluding yourself.


    I have alot of friends who went to US for college and many of them had one night stands so obviously had mulitple partners. Do you think they are disrespected for that? I really don't think so since alot of them are now settled with commited relationshps now that they are done with their college partying phase.  Most people party alot in their early 20's but later on they settle down with one person, that goes for both men and women. Women generally don't like marrying a guy whos still in that man-whore phase but one whos serious and wants to settle down in a monogamous relationship.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #534 - January 26, 2010, 04:38 AM
    Quote
    A man too needs witnesses to finalize the divorce... a court must be included for both parties.

    By the way, does Pakistan allow Khul'?!! 


    Even if he needs a witness or not, it doesn't change the fact that he can verbally divorce his wife.
    Can a woman verbally divorce her husband?
    Does he  need a qadi to grant him a divorce like a woman does?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #535 - January 26, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Ok, you're right. The West views a married man with many mistresses exactly the same way it views a married woman with multiple lovers.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #536 - January 26, 2010, 04:43 AM
    Quote from: taraC on January 26, 2010, 04:38 AM
    Even if he needs a witness or not, it doesn't change the fact that he can verbally divorce his wife.
    Can a woman verbally divorce her husband?
    Does he  need a qadi to grant him a divorce like a woman does?


    The only difference between a man divorcing a woman and vice versa, is that the woman is required to return the Mahr if she has no reason for divorce (while the man has to pay Muakhar and expenses, if there's no good reason for him wanting to divorce her... in fact, he has to pay expenses and she has to pay nothing if she cited a good reason for divorce).

    And you didn't answer my question: does Pakistan allow Khul'?!!! So far it's applied in the courts of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but does Pakistan allow the same thing too???!!!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #537 - January 26, 2010, 04:58 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 26, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Ok, you're right. The West views a married man with many mistresses exactly the same way it views a married woman with multiple lovers.


    You seriously think that women respect a man whos married and is cheating on his wife?
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #538 - January 26, 2010, 05:04 AM
    Quote
    You seriously think that women respect a man whos married and is cheating on his wife?


    You're amazing tara... you keep attacking things I never said. So how about I ask you a straight question to which I hope you give a straight answer:

    Does an average Westerner view a married man with many mistresses exactly the same way they view a married woman with multiple lovers? yes/no?

     

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #539 - January 26, 2010, 05:11 AM
    Quote
    The only difference between a man divorcing a woman and vice versa, is that the woman is required to return the Mahr if she has no reason for divorce (while the man has to pay Muakhar and expenses, if there's no good reason for him wanting to divorce her... in fact, he has to pay expenses and she has to pay nothing if she cited a good reason for divorce).


    Thats not the only difference. A man can end his marriage by verbally saying it, can a woman also end her marraige like that instead of going to a qadi?

    Quote
    And you didn't answer my question: does Pakistan allow Khul'?!!! So far it's applied in the courts of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but does Pakistan allow the same thing too???!!!


    Yeah it's allowed here but it's unfair that a man can divorce without having to go through court but a woman can't do the same.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
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