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Theme Changer

 Topic: Mohammad, the Pedophile

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #570 - January 26, 2010, 08:36 PM

    wtf is Mabur?

    Mabur is the name of the coptic castratee that Ali almost killed for the crime of fathering a child from the wife-slave of his older cousin. His name is mentioned in the hadith I posted.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #571 - January 26, 2010, 10:54 PM

    @ angel

    Of course, no one makes the decision for the man to divorce, but his decision must be documented (two witnesses).

    And it appears you missed the conversation between me and Tara over Khul'. In the case of Khul', no one has to share the decision with the woman, she can get divorce without citing any reason AT ALL, as long as she gives the husband the Mahr back. (if she doesn't want to give the Mahr back, then she has to give good reasons AND the judge decides these reasons are good enough or not). Of course, these details are in Hadith.

    That's why I was shocked they allow Khul' in Pakistan. (as far as I know, it's allowed only in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but Tara says it's allowed inPakistan too).

    As for your other posts, you cited many reasons for women cheating ignoring that statistically speaking, men cheat for sex whereas women cheat for emotional connection... no one denies that there are various reasons for women cheating, the point is what is the primary reason, statistically speaking.

     banghead

    jeez.. i didnt miss a thing. I dont know if my english skills are deteriorating...I dont know...Is this khul thing from the quran? If its verse 229 then this isnt female divorce.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #572 - January 27, 2010, 10:24 AM

    like marriage, a divorce is a contract.. it needs witnesses.

    For 1. That is a lie. An islamic divorce does not require a witness if initiated by a male.
    For 2. Even if the laws of the land forced a witness on the husband. So what? The husband can summon a witness and then utter the divorce. Who cares if a witness is required or not? That statement is stupid. Stop making stupid statements.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #573 - January 27, 2010, 10:30 AM

    As for Khul' (Forcible Removing), it requires courts, lawyers, judges, money, resources, a mahr which is often spent, spent on the family no less. Not to mention the money and the time and the years.

    As for the man, all he has to do is utter divorce. You mentioned a witness is required (wtf are you an objectional conscientor now?), so the husband can open the window and say it loud to satisfy your objection, as if our objection now just fixed the injustice and insults thrown at women.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #574 - January 27, 2010, 10:46 AM

    How do the Shia divorce? Anybody know? I was told you can't do the whole talaq x 3 thing?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #575 - January 27, 2010, 11:50 AM

    Hey Baal,

    First off I did not say polygamy is a "solution" to low self-esteem. Don't create arguments I didn't make and then attack them.

    Now you said:

    Quote
    For 1. That is a lie. An islamic divorce does not require a witness if initiated by a male.
    For 2. Even if the laws of the land forced a witness on the husband. So what? The husband can summon a witness and then utter the divorce. Who cares if a witness is required or not? That statement is stupid. Stop making stupid statements.


    How about you stop being a stupid liar? Read the conversation between me and angel, and if you can't catch up, then stfu.

    Quote
    As for Khul' (Forcible Removing), it requires courts, lawyers, judges, money, resources, a mahr which is often spent, spent on the family no less. Not to mention the money and the time and the years.

     

    Clearly, you have no clue on what khul' is, so stop pretending like you do know what it is.
     
    Quote
    As for the man, all he has to do is utter divorce. You mentioned a witness is required (wtf are you an objectional conscientor now?), so the husband can open the window and say it loud to satisfy your objection, as if our objection now just fixed the injustice and insults thrown at women.


    wtf are you talking about?

    Quote
    Mabur is the name of the coptic castratee that Ali almost killed for the crime of fathering a child from the wife-slave of his older cousin. His name is mentioned in the hadith I posted.


    What a liar you are Baal. An account in Tabari book is NOT Hadith.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #576 - January 27, 2010, 11:53 AM

    @ BD

    A Shia friend once told me that Shia believe Aicha was 15 at marriage, is that true?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #577 - January 27, 2010, 12:01 PM

    @ BD

    A Shia friend once told me that Shia believe Aicha was 15 at marriage, is that true?


    Nope, 9 according to tradition. I saw that on a Fadlallah's (Lebanese marja) website. Somebody was asking if a 35 year old could marry a girl of a certain age (dont remember the exact age, she was younger than him, but don't think it was ridiculously young) and he said" no of course not our role model the prophet married Aisha when was 9 or 10". I tried to find it on his website but didn?t manage. But I have never heard anything other than 9.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #578 - January 27, 2010, 12:12 PM

    @ BD

    Quote
    Nope, 9 according to tradition. I saw that on a Fadlallah's (Lebanese marja) website. Somebody was asking if a 35 year old could marry a girl of a certain age (dont remember the exact age, she was younger than him, but don't think it was ridiculously young) and he said" no of course not our role model the prophet married Aisha when was 9 or 10". I tried to find it on his website but didn?t manage. But I have never heard anything other than 9.

     

    Ok, here's the weird thing. According to Sunni Hadith, ONLY Aicha reported her age at marriage (no one ever corroborated her story). Sunnis of course respect Aicha and believe eveything she's reported to have said.

    Now, the Shia hate Aicha very much and accuse her of so many things, least of which is lying. So how come the Shia, when it comes to Aicha reporting her age at marriage to be 9, they believe her?! I thought Shia reject Sunni Hadith and they specifically reject everything Aicha said as lies.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #579 - January 27, 2010, 12:17 PM

    They pick and choose. The hadiths that disrespect the Ahulul Bayt and the Prophet are seen as unreliable. They use the ones that make their points stronger. The ones that are neutral are also left alone. This is what I think, they say the hadiths books of Sunna are unreliable not totally false, however they also say that not all hadiths in the Shia hadiths collections are reliable.

    But yeah Aisha is not seen as infallible.

    http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ayesha/en/index.php

    For example what I was told, Shia say that it was not the prophet who frowned and turned away. But one of the Sahaba, I think Umar? Or one of the rich leaders from Quraysh that were there. I'm trying to find the source for this. The Prophet and the Ahulul Bayt are seen as totally infallible.

    But you should ask more people, I'm not an expert on the subject Smiley

    More info on Shia here:

    http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #580 - January 27, 2010, 01:49 PM

    @ BD

    A Shia friend once told me that Shia believe Aicha was 15 at marriage, is that true?


    More on this subject:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MYIgKUJJcI

    Text:
    http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3178.htm

    Quote
    Interviewer: "Back then you were an observant Shiite Muslim from Hizbullah, weren't you?"

    Rami ?Aleiq nods.

    [...]

    Interviewer: "How did you ever dare to sign a pleasure-marriage contract with a nine-year-old girl?"

    Rami 'Aleiq: "In our culture, in order to be able to touch a girl or a woman, there must be a contract of pleasure-marriage."

    [...]

    Interviewer: "We are talking about a nine-year-old girl..."

    Rami 'Aleiq: "Sure. In Islam, and this is what we were taught, a girl is mature from the age of nine. This is true with regard to Sunnis as well as Shiites. You are focusing on Shia Islam, because I am a Shiite, but according to religious jurisprudence, a girl is mature at the age of nine. This is where we got this idea. I was a child, and so was she, so I was not allowed to touch her, if I didn't form with her the kind of relation that permitted this."

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #581 - January 27, 2010, 02:19 PM

    who's the babe interviewer?  she's gorgeous  001_wub

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #582 - January 27, 2010, 02:22 PM

    Horrible taste man she's totally plastic.

    Her face is so heavily made up that you could use it to make pancakes.

    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #583 - January 27, 2010, 02:23 PM

    true, but those cheekbones are to die for and would put a hole in that pancake of yours

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #584 - January 27, 2010, 02:27 PM

    If you like high and wide cheekbones....

     Cheesy

    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #585 - January 27, 2010, 06:52 PM

    Now you said:

    How about you stop being a stupid liar? Read the conversation between me and angel, and if you can't catch up, then stfu.
     

    Here let me post again what was said between Angel and you to remind you:

    Quote from: Angel54 on January 25, 2010, 11:26:52 PM
    According to the quran, where does it say that a man must go to court?

    According to you Debunker you replied:
    like marriage, a divorce is a contract.. it needs witnesses.


    What am I supposed to call the statement you made? A conscientious objection?

    Clearly, you have no clue on what khul' is, so stop pretending like you do know what it is.
     
    wtf are you talking about?

    Because as soon as the wife initiates the Khul, which is a concept forced upon islam bt the way, the man gets to initiate a "Beit El Ta'a - House of Obedience" and the wife is forced to return to him and shove her Khul'.

    What a liar you are Baal. An account in Tabari book is NOT Hadith.

    You seem to believe I somehow like those books. I am sorry if I give you that impression. I keep my only koran inside the box i keep my old shoes in, and after everytime i touch One of the other books I wash my hands. Here is a term I learned from my friends from Prince Edwards Island in Canada: "Same Shit".

    Mohammed orders Ali to kill a man he suspects fathered his kid.
    Ali actually complies(wtf!??!?)
    Turns out the man is castrated, and you are upset about which book this is from. And calling people a liar for it. And that is instead of thanking me for taking the effort to dig the information for you so you can learn something new.

    You are welcome.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #586 - January 27, 2010, 07:14 PM

     clap Wow Baal - remind me never to get on your wrongside

    and this

    You seem to believe I somehow like those books. I am sorry if I give you that impression. I keep my only koran inside the box i keep my old shoes in, and after everytime i touch One of the other books I wash my hands.


     Cheesy

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #587 - January 27, 2010, 07:17 PM

    Regarding the issue of witnessing the divorce. The witnesses are only called after the Iddat is completed. Where the woman can not remarry but the man can marry 3 more times at least if not 4 (I did not check if he needs to wait iddat before re-filling slot #4)

    65:02:
    "Thus when they fulfil their term appointed, either take them back on equitable terms or part with them on equitable terms; and take for witness two persons from among you"

    And as Angel and me said, What difference does it make to pick 2 assclowns to witness something. What hardships are imposed on the man as opposed to the hardships on the woman.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #588 - January 27, 2010, 07:25 PM

    Peace friends,

    As some of you, this dodgy stuff is very much Tailorite fodder.

    It is quite likely that in 7th century Arabia (like in certain times in European history), children probably were married off young. Some philosophers (like Foucault for instance), might argue that our notion of "childhood" (like our notion of "homosexuality") cannot therefore be read back onto the past. In a sense, it didn't exist then.

    I'd agree. (But from my perspective, the fact we DO have a concept of childhood is one of the greatest things about living a privileged western existence in the 21st century.)

    So some people argue that it wasn't really an unusual thing for Aisha to be married at 9. But if this is the case, why bother including this fact in the hadiths (assuming they are not just an historical record, but some kind of spiritual guidance -- of course you guys need not partake in that assumption, but you would agree a sincere Muslim must ask such a question, rather than avoiding it). The reason is given here (it's a bit complicated, sorry, but Aisha is complicated in a lot of ways):

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/aisha?s-marriage-a-hyper-salafi-perspective/

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #589 - January 27, 2010, 07:27 PM

    What's a hyper salafi :S

    More salafi than regular salafis? Is that even possible  grin12
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #590 - January 27, 2010, 08:05 PM

    @ Baal

    Quote
    Here let me post again what was said between Angel and you to remind you:

    Quote from: Angel54 on January 25, 2010, 11:26:52 PM
    According to the quran, where does it say that a man must go to court?

    According to you Debunker you replied:
    like marriage, a divorce is a contract.. it needs witnesses.


    What am I supposed to call the statement you made? A conscientious objection?


    I didn't object to you calling it a conscientious objection. I didn't even comment on that.

    Quote
    Because as soon as the wife initiates the Khul, which is a concept forced upon islam bt the way, the man gets to initiate a "Beit El Ta'a - House of Obedience" and the wife is forced to return to him and shove her Khul'.


    Beit El Ta'a?!! That's an old Egyptian law as far as I know. It is NOT based on scripture. For example, even in *Wahhabi* Saudi Arabia, there was NEVER something called Bait El Ta'a! A woman can leave her husband's house and go back to her family without him being able to do anything about it... in the old days he could keep her un-divorced except if she cited a good reason for divorce but that has changed after Khul' since she can force him to divorce her once she throws the Mahr if she didn't want to cite any reason AT ALL... but again, I repeat: even in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, there was never Bait El Ta'a.

    Quote
    You seem to believe I somehow like those books. I am sorry if I give you that impression. I keep my only koran inside the box i keep my old shoes in, and after everytime i touch One of the other books I wash my hands. Here is a term I learned from my friends from Prince Edwards Island in Canada: "Same Shit".

    Mohammed orders Ali to kill a man he suspects fathered his kid.
    Ali actually complies(wtf!??!?)
    Turns out the man is castrated, and you are upset about which book this is from. And calling people a liar for it. And that is instead of thanking me for taking the effort to dig the information for you so you can learn something new.

    You are welcome.

    I don't give a damn how you view these books. It's no skin off my nose how you feel about them as long as you don't palm yourself off as the big Islamic expert when you can't even differentiate between them. Thank you.

    Quote
    Regarding the issue of witnessing the divorce. The witnesses are only called after the Iddat is completed. Where the woman can not remarry but the man can marry 3 more times at least if not 4 (I did not check if he needs to wait iddat before re-filling slot #4)

    65:02:
    "Thus when they fulfil their term appointed, either take them back on equitable terms or part with them on equitable terms; and take for witness two persons from among you"

    And as Angel and me said, What difference does it make to pick 2 assclowns to witness something. What hardships are imposed on the man as opposed to the hardships on the woman.

    You know what Idda is for.. A woman has to wait anyway, because of the possibility of pregnancy... anyway, my argument with Angel stands... the man can't finalize the divorce except by two witnesses, meaning? A court must be involved to process the paperwork and ensure that the man paid the required expenses.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #591 - January 27, 2010, 08:05 PM

    Hyper-Salafism is a form of Sufism that adopts the principles of Salafis, but abandons their essentially socialist-materialist assumptions about reality.

    In contrast to many versions of Sufism (with which we nevertheless have strong friendships and allegiances), we place very little emphasis on the sheikhs and scholars that came in the centuries that followed Islam's beginning, and instead we make heavy use of the "standard" hadith literature for spiritual guidance. We read Bukhari more closely than we read ibn Arabi and Rumi, so to speak (though we respect both).

    To take a simple example, Salafis believe lack of short trousers leads us hellfire. So they make damn sure to hem their Gap chinos, or, even better, adopt what they imagine to be historically accurate recreations of the robes worn at the time of Prophecy bought from Shukronline.com.

    The hyper-Salafi also believes a long garment that trails behind one will lead us to the hellfire. So we also cut hem our chinos. But we deny the existence of the Gap and Shukronline.com in the sense they understand it -- in fact, we deny the existence of "clothing" in the sense understood by most people. These things are all fictions, Imaginary games of language that we have implicitly agreed to participate in. In this sense, you can say we live in  illusion: the illusion is broken when we fully understand that all life is imaginary games of language. And these games of language are the "real" meaning of clothing. The games can trail behind us, obstructing prayer -- or they can be hemmed, above the ankles, circumcised in righteousness.

    Both the typical progressive Muslim, the Salafi and Richard Dawkins, for example, believe in the truth of this physical reality placed before us: they both would both say that clothing is clothing and the Gap "really" exists. They are all materialists when it comes to reality. A Salafi in particular will say -- I wear short trousers because God tells me to, and there is nothing more to it: because trousers are trousers (and there is nothing more to them). We have a different understanding of clothing (and the Gap, for that matter) as ayat of God, basically: Divine communication acts (that communicate the True nature of reality through their infinite forms).

    If you like, my job as a hyper-Salafi Tailor is to hem the garment of the Salafis (and the wider ummah), which currently trails way behind them (in subscribing to all kinds of materialist dogma).

    I can also give you a more trippy (a)historical perspective ... After a protracted silent march, Hyper-Salafism and Tailorite Sufism eventually won the battle for hearts and minds of the ummah, and came to be rightly regarded as the Orthodox understanding of Islam. By the year 4009, after the Great Expansion, the ideas morphed into a Galactic political movement, known as the Verandah Vanguard. Fragments of their manifesto and speeches appear from time to time on my blog:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/re-volution-a-party-political-broadcast-on-behalf-of-the-verandah-vanguard/

    But unfortunately, the pendulum swings back and forth, and eventually the Verandah Vanguard's agenda was by the Demiurgic principles of a dictator known as President Ourobus, who waged a violent Anti-Gnostic campaign to wipe our Doctrine from the face of the earth. This was halted only by a young girl known Matronita Minor who actually broke this repetitious cycle of humanity's relationship with true Islam and idolatrous materialism in the guise of Islam. She broke it in a very unusual way, the events of which will be sketched in my upcoming novel (which I will plug mercilessly everywhere shortly).

    Well, you did ask!  dance

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #592 - January 27, 2010, 08:13 PM

    lol you're alright you Wink

    why do we always get the weird muslims?   Cheesy
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #593 - January 27, 2010, 08:22 PM

    well, weird is relative, BD... Sunnis view Shia as weird and vice versa. Sufis view both sects as weird (although Sufis do come from both sects, but mostly from Sunnis). And about a 1000 years ago, there were all sorts of sects, other than Sunnis and Shia... Sunnis tried to eradicate all sects and they succeeded except they failed to supress Shiaism for political reasons.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #594 - January 27, 2010, 08:25 PM

    Yeah I mean to read more about Islam's early history.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #595 - January 27, 2010, 08:27 PM

    If you like, my job as a hyper-Salafi Tailor is to hem the garment of the Salafis (and the wider ummah), which currently trails way behind them (in subscribing to all kinds of materialist dogma).

    This is going to be one hell of a job! Good luck with it!
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #596 - January 27, 2010, 08:38 PM

    Thankfully we've got folk like Hassan -- and you guys here in this forum -- doing the cutting (to shreds!). Once that's over, I can start on the needlework. But yeah, it's going to be haute couture and bespoke work for ages to come: we are not ready for Topshop and the Gap by any means, basically won't be until everyone finds themselves naked and utterly afraid. Ooops Smiley

    L&L,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #597 - January 27, 2010, 08:49 PM

    Ahh.. so we are pawns in your game.  You're right, muslims are not ready for Burtons, but they are already becoming Masters at bespoke tailoring.  You better get in quick, before you lose out on your market share.

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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #598 - January 27, 2010, 09:20 PM

    Pawns in my game? Surely not: different businesses, is all. Maybe pawns in Someone else's game, but there is no need to agree on that point -- but I happen to believe the stuff you guys are doing (still on a small scale here and in other places) is part of a larger ummatic unfolding, so to speak, that will only be good for everyone concerned (I think we all agree on that, at least).

    I've got my little boutique shop with reasonable custom, with very little ability to grow it any further: nevertheless, these are exciting times I live in, and, in pursuit of more customers, while I've not necessarily attracted any actual business, I have encountered all kinds of wonderful people (such as you folk) that have taught me a great deal about myself.

    Love and Light,

    The T

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #599 - January 27, 2010, 09:26 PM

    so are you a pantheist then?

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