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 Topic: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain

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  • 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     OP - March 17, 2009, 07:11 AM

    Quote
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16775-consciousness-signature-discovered-spanning-the-brain.html

    Electrodes implanted in the brains of people with epilepsy might have resolved an ancient question about consciousness.

    Signals from the electrodes seem to show that consciousness arises from the coordinated activity of the entire brain. The signals also take us closer to finding an objective "consciousness signature" that could be used to probe the process in animals and people with brain damage without inserting electrodes.

    Previously it wasn't clear whether a dedicated brain area, or "seat of consciousness", was responsible for guiding our subjective view of the world, or whether consciousness was the result of concerted activity across the whole brain.

    Probing the process has been a challenge, as non-invasive techniques such as magnetic resonance imaging and EEG give either spatial or temporal information but not both. The best way to get both simultaneously is to implant electrodes deep inside the skull, but it is difficult to justify this in healthy people for ethical reasons.

    Brainy opportunity

    Now neuroscientist Rapha?l Gaillard of INSERM in Gif sur Yvette, France, and colleagues have taken advantage of a unique opportunity. They have probed consciousness in 10 people who had intercranial electrodes implanted for treating drug-resistant epilepsy.

    While monitoring signals from these electrodes, Gaillard's team flashed words in front of the volunteers for just 29 milliseconds. The words were either threatening (kill, anger) or emotionally neutral (cousin, see).

    The words were preceded and followed by visual "masks", which block the words from being consciously processed, or the masks following the words weren't used, meaning the words could be consciously processed. The volunteers had to press a button to indicate the nature of the word, allowing the researchers to confirm whether the volunteer was conscious of it or not.

    Between the 10 volunteers, the researchers received information from a total of 176 electrodes, which covered almost the whole brain. During the first 300 milliseconds of the experiment, brain activity during both the non-conscious and conscious tasks was very similar, indicating that the process of consciousness had not kicked in. But after that, there were several types of brain activity that only occurred in the individuals who were aware of the words.

    Lost seat

    First, there was an increase in the voltage levels of the signals in their brains. Second, the frequency and phase of neurons firing in different parts of the brain seemed to synchronise. Then some of these synchronised signals appeared to be triggering others. For example, activity in the occipital lobe seemed to cause activity in the frontal lobe.

    Because this activity only occurred in volunteers when they were aware of the words, Gaillard's team argue that it constitutes a consciousness signature. As much of this activity was spread across the brain, they say that consciousness has no single "seat". "Consciousness is more a question of dynamics, than of a local activity," says Gaillard.

    Bernard Baars of the Neuroscience Institute in San Diego, California, who proposed a "global access" theory of consciousness in 1983 agrees: "I'm thrilled by these results."

    He says they provide the "first really solid, direct evidence" for his own theory. He also says that having such a signature will make it easier to look for signs of consciousness in people with brain damage, infants and animals with the help of non-invasive techniques such as EEG.


    Guess we don't need no soul any more to explain the consciousness Tongue
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #1 - May 04, 2009, 10:00 AM

    Consciousness probably remains the biggest problem in my mind for accepting materialism. It's just that no matter how much talk of flying neurones and electrical impulses, I just can't get to the basic gist of our five senses. How do we see? Trying to explain it scientifically always seems to bring the image that is seen further and further back such as "an image is formed in our eyes" and then further back by saying "an image is formed in the brain", but when will we get to the point where we say "and this is what we see those images with" ?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #2 - May 04, 2009, 11:21 AM

    Consciousness probably remains the biggest problem in my mind for accepting materialism. It's just that no matter how much talk of flying neurones and electrical impulses, I just can't get to the basic gist of our five senses. How do we see? Trying to explain it scientifically always seems to bring the image that is seen further and further back such as "an image is formed in our eyes" and then further back by saying "an image is formed in the brain", but when will we get to the point where we say "and this is what we see those images with" ?

    Fallacious reasoning.
    It's the "whole system" that sees, not a particular part of it.

    It would be analogous to asking: "What exactly is the nature of an apple? If i start removing one molecule at a time, when will it stop being an apple?"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #3 - May 05, 2009, 06:05 AM

    Consciousness probably remains the biggest problem in my mind for accepting materialism. It's just that no matter how much talk of flying neurones and electrical impulses, I just can't get to the basic gist of our five senses. How do we see? Trying to explain it scientifically always seems to bring the image that is seen further and further back such as "an image is formed in our eyes" and then further back by saying "an image is formed in the brain", but when will we get to the point where we say "and this is what we see those images with" ?

    Fallacious reasoning.
    It's the "whole system" that sees, not a particular part of it.

    It would be analogous to asking: "What exactly is the nature of an apple? If i start removing one molecule at a time, when will it stop being an apple?"


    The "whole system" that sees... can you explain that to me?

    I think your analogy is not relevant to this because I am not asking about the human organism, which would be comparable to the apple, but I am asking about one aspect of the human organism, and that is the consciousness. So we can point and say that this is the stalk of the apple, or this is the core of an apple. So where do we point and say, this is the consciousness of the human organism?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #4 - May 05, 2009, 03:34 PM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #5 - May 05, 2009, 03:37 PM

    Or, replace "seeing" with "consciousness".

    The fallacy here is applying "dichotomic logic" to a concept that evidently needs "fuzzy logic" to make any sense.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #6 - May 05, 2009, 03:46 PM

    Now you might say:

    But what if we replace the eye and attach some fictional devices that sends impulses to the brain through the optical nerve? The brain would still see. Doesn't that mean that the eye is not necessary to vision?

    To which I can reply:

    But what if we start replacing each neuron in the brain with a fictional nanotechnologic device that acts exactly like the neuron it just replaced? When will "seeing and consciousness" end? Will they end at all? Does it mean that neither the eye nor the brain are necessary to vision?

    Tongue

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #7 - May 06, 2009, 05:17 AM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"

    I doubt one molecule will make a difference. The brain is a lot more complicated than that.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #8 - May 06, 2009, 05:20 AM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"

    I doubt one molecule will make a difference. The brain is a lot more complicated than that.


    I think he means remove one molecule at a time until you get to the point where the person can no longer see - ie, at some point there will be a single molecule difference.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #9 - May 06, 2009, 05:25 AM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"

    I doubt one molecule will make a difference. The brain is a lot more complicated than that.


    I think he means remove one molecule at a time until you get to the point where the person can no longer see - ie, at some point there will be a single molecule difference.

    Not necessarily, as loss of sight would probably be gradual in a molecule by molecule scenario

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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #10 - May 06, 2009, 05:26 AM

    It would, but at some point it would go from partial sight to no sight.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #11 - May 06, 2009, 05:57 AM

    It would, but at some point it would go from partial sight to no sight.

    Not necessarily, a bit like asking when does a blurred line going from white to black, become black..

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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #12 - May 06, 2009, 05:59 AM

    It would, but at some point it would go from partial sight to no sight.

    Not necessarily, a bit like asking when does a blurred line going from white to black, become black..


    I don't follow you.  What Tlaloc seemed to be saying is that if you remove one molecule at a time sight will gradually diminish until eventually you get to a point where there is one molecule's difference between partial - very slight - sight, and a blind system.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #13 - May 06, 2009, 06:10 AM

    It would, but at some point it would go from partial sight to no sight.

    Not necessarily, a bit like asking when does a blurred line going from white to black, become black..


    I don't follow you.  What Tlaloc seemed to be saying is that if you remove one molecule at a time sight will gradually diminish until eventually you get to a point where there is one molecule's difference between partial - very slight - sight, and a blind system.


    The white-black colour palette analogy shows what I think happens to sight when moelecules are removed i.e. there is no single molecule responsible for sight - its a collective entity that produces 20:20 vision

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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #14 - May 06, 2009, 07:04 AM

    It is a collective entity of molecules which is responsible for sight, I agree.  But if you remove enough molecules, eventually there will be only one of the collective left.  At that stage you have one molecule difference between sight and blindness.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #15 - May 06, 2009, 07:25 AM

    It can still be more complex than that. You would have to remove the molecules from the right part of the brain and it may involve taking molecules from several areas of that brain in order to remove vision, you may also have to remove molecules from a different part of the brain too.

    Also if you switch the order you remove these molecules in you may find that the last molecule you remove may come from a different area then the first time you did this test. You will have to do this test several times in order to find all the regions responsible for vision.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #16 - May 06, 2009, 07:31 AM

    Perhaps, but as there are billions of molecules, singular removal may not make a noticeable difference (much like my white-black continuum spectrum analogy and at what point does grey become black).  Not sure if I am making myself clear, but it ultimately boils down to a man-made definition rather than a specific molecule that causes blindness.

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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #17 - May 06, 2009, 08:56 AM

    Well, what I meant to point out was the paradox of applying dichotomic logic to try and find the "core function" of a fuzzy-defined process like vision.

    It's the whole brain-eye system that sees.
    And, as far as I understand, it doesn't see by virtue of any of its physical part, but by virtue of the structure of the system itself. Hence why I think that if you replace some of its parts with artificial parts that simulate the replaced parts functions, you still have a "system that sees".

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #18 - May 06, 2009, 04:40 PM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"


    That single molecule might have been necessary for vision, but not sufficient.
    I guess this is what I'm asking: is a specific physical layout of atoms sufficient to produce vision?

    I think it isn't. Vision is a mental experience, much like happiness, anger or fear. Such things cannot be explained in purely physical terms. I think, but I cannot be sure, that this points towards the existence of another dimension, that is, mind.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #19 - May 07, 2009, 04:30 AM

    Vision can be explained in purely physical terms. Start by physically removing your eyes, then do some testing.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #20 - May 07, 2009, 10:04 AM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"


    That single molecule might have been necessary for vision, but not sufficient.
    I guess this is what I'm asking: is a specific physical layout of atoms sufficient to produce vision?

    I think it isn't. Vision is a mental experience, much like happiness, anger or fear. Such things cannot be explained in purely physical terms. I think, but I cannot be sure, that this points towards the existence of another dimension, that is, mind.

    There is no SPECIFIC physical layout to produce vision.
    The neural "layout" is what determines the way you think and what you have learned... which is constantly changing by the more you think and the more input you process.

    Your question is fallacious because you think vision/feelings/consciousness can be answered with boolean yes/no logic. It can't.
    System A can "feel" certain things more/less than system B.
    What you can say is that the closer they are in structure, the more alike they function.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #21 - May 07, 2009, 10:47 AM

    Vision can be explained in purely physical terms. Start by physically removing your eyes, then do some testing.


    If you remove your eyes, you no longer see. From this you have shown that your eyes are an essential ingredient to you having your vision. But you don't say a cake is made out of sugar and think you have explained it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #22 - May 07, 2009, 10:55 AM

    1. Take a human.
    2. Remove a random molecule from his brain or optical nerves or eyes.
    3. Can he see? If yes, go back to step 2. Otherwise go on to step 4.
    4. Congratulations! You have found that one single molecule that made the difference between "a system that can see" and "a blind system"


    That single molecule might have been necessary for vision, but not sufficient.
    I guess this is what I'm asking: is a specific physical layout of atoms sufficient to produce vision?

    I think it isn't. Vision is a mental experience, much like happiness, anger or fear. Such things cannot be explained in purely physical terms. I think, but I cannot be sure, that this points towards the existence of another dimension, that is, mind.

    There is no SPECIFIC physical layout to produce vision.
    The neural "layout" is what determines the way you think and what you have learned... which is constantly changing by the more you think and the more input you process.

    Your question is fallacious because you think vision/feelings/consciousness can be answered with boolean yes/no logic. It can't.
    System A can "feel" certain things more/less than system B.
    What you can say is that the closer they are in structure, the more alike they function.


    But I want to look at the characteristics of this physical layout which we call the brain and question whether we can reasonably assume that mere physical material can really produce vision/feelings/consciousness.

    Vision/feelings/consciousness are either mental activities, physical activities, in some sense a mixture of both, or neither. You can't say that I am fallaciously assuming there is an answer. Ofcourse there is an answer. You can admit that you don't know, but you can't say that because you don't know, there must not be an answer to it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #23 - May 07, 2009, 11:47 AM

    But I want to look at the characteristics of this physical layout which we call the brain and question whether we can reasonably assume that mere physical material can really produce vision/feelings/consciousness.

    Vision/feelings/consciousness are either mental activities, physical activities, in some sense a mixture of both, or neither. You can't say that I am fallaciously assuming there is an answer. Ofcourse there is an answer. You can admit that you don't know, but you can't say that because you don't know, there must not be an answer to it.

    We KNOW that by removing or damaging parts of the eye or the brain we lessen, impair, or completely remove vision.
    So what more do you need?

    It looks to me that you have already decided that it's not enough because you want it to be "more".

    We do not yet know how to create an artificial system possessing vision and recognition capabilities that is able to simulate human behavior. Is that what you are looking for?
    Cause, so far, robotics is able to simulate simpler vision and reaction systems similar to insects.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #24 - May 07, 2009, 11:50 AM

    I fear we'll soon start talking about philosophical zombies and Turing tests Tongue

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #25 - May 07, 2009, 12:29 PM

    But I want to look at the characteristics of this physical layout which we call the brain and question whether we can reasonably assume that mere physical material can really produce vision/feelings/consciousness.

    Vision/feelings/consciousness are either mental activities, physical activities, in some sense a mixture of both, or neither. You can't say that I am fallaciously assuming there is an answer. Ofcourse there is an answer. You can admit that you don't know, but you can't say that because you don't know, there must not be an answer to it.

    We KNOW that by removing or damaging parts of the eye or the brain we lessen, impair, or completely remove vision.
    So what more do you need?

    It looks to me that you have already decided that it's not enough because you want it to be "more".

    We do not yet know how to create an artificial system possessing vision and recognition capabilities that is able to simulate human behavior. Is that what you are looking for?
    Cause, so far, robotics is able to simulate simpler vision and reaction systems similar to insects.


    It's not about whether I want it to be true or not; that is a poor mode of discussion.

    I could say that by you saying "So what more do you need?" your dismissing further research into the area to examine whether there is a possibility of a mental dimension because you want it to be "not more". But I won't seriously argue for that.

    Like I said, removing the physical components that collectively produce vision, and witnessing that this results in blindness, we have logically shown nothing more than that the physical components are an essential ingredient in the production of vision. But we have not shown that it is the only ingredient.

    I want to seriously consider whether we can reasonably assume that it is the physical components and nothing else that produce this phenomenon which cannot be described in physical terms, except to describe the physical effects that this phenomenon can have on the body when it changes.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #26 - May 08, 2009, 08:51 AM

    It's not about whether I want it to be true or not; that is a poor mode of discussion.

    I could say that by you saying "So what more do you need?" your dismissing further research into the area to examine whether there is a possibility of a mental dimension because you want it to be "not more". But I won't seriously argue for that.


    Ok, define "mental dimension". Define how it could be falsifiable.
    Otherwise anything you say is non-sense from the scientific point of view.
    What "further research" are you talking about?
    We have factual evidence of how any change in thought and mental patterns corresponds to a biochemical and electrical change in the brain.
    And we have factual evidence of how any change in biochemistry and electricity in the brain corresponds to a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    So, yes, "what more do you need?"

    That would be like saying that accepting a "material" explanation to mechanics means dismissing further research into examining whether there is a possibility of extra-physical dimensions with intelligent beings instructing matter in the physical world to move here and there.

    Like I said, removing the physical components that collectively produce vision, and witnessing that this results in blindness, we have logically shown nothing more than that the physical components are an essential ingredient in the production of vision. But we have not shown that it is the only ingredient.

    I want to seriously consider whether we can reasonably assume that it is the physical components and nothing else that produce this phenomenon which cannot be described in physical terms, except to describe the physical effects that this phenomenon can have on the body when it changes.

    If something doesn't function without its "physical components", you can assume whatever you want about the "non-physical components"... it will simply be completely unfalsifiable: so all non-physical explanations are equally valid, equally invalid, and, most importantly, equally irrelevant.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #27 - May 08, 2009, 02:45 PM

    It's not about whether I want it to be true or not; that is a poor mode of discussion.

    I could say that by you saying "So what more do you need?" your dismissing further research into the area to examine whether there is a possibility of a mental dimension because you want it to be "not more". But I won't seriously argue for that.


    Ok, define "mental dimension". Define how it could be falsifiable.
    Otherwise anything you say is non-sense from the scientific point of view.


    I don't think anything is falsifiable, except against a set of assumptions.
    For example, the claim 2+2=5 is not falsifiable. It is possible that you are under the spell of a demon when you reason your way towards 2+2=4. I think induction might be a more reliable method of science, but I am not well-versed in this subject, yet.

    A mental dimension cannot be adequately defined, as language was created to categorize those things which we can detect with our senses. However, if I was pressed I would probably say that the mental dimension is something which is not limited by the boundaries of space; I'm not yet sure about time. Thus, things of the mental dimension cannot collide. That would not be a sufficient description though.

    Quote
    What "further research" are you talking about?


    Psychological research?

    Quote
    We have factual evidence of how any change in thought and mental patterns corresponds to a biochemical and electrical change in the brain.


    But what causes these changes in thought and mental patterns?

    Quote
    And we have factual evidence of how any change in biochemistry and electricity in the brain corresponds to a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    So, yes, "what more do you need?"


    A satisfactory explanation of the nature of consciousness, vision, sensation, etc.

    Quote
    That would be like saying that accepting a "material" explanation to mechanics means dismissing further research into examining whether there is a possibility of extra-physical dimensions with intelligent beings instructing matter in the physical world to move here and there.


    Your pursuing a point that I said I wasn't going to seriously argue for. I made that point in order to show you that you shouldn't assume my emotions are getting in the way of my rational capacity. If I did the same, it would lead to absurdities in our discussion, as you seem to realize.

    Quote
    Like I said, removing the physical components that collectively produce vision, and witnessing that this results in blindness, we have logically shown nothing more than that the physical components are an essential ingredient in the production of vision. But we have not shown that it is the only ingredient.

    I want to seriously consider whether we can reasonably assume that it is the physical components and nothing else that produce this phenomenon which cannot be described in physical terms, except to describe the physical effects that this phenomenon can have on the body when it changes.

    If something doesn't function without its "physical components", you can assume whatever you want about the "non-physical components"... it will simply be completely unfalsifiable: so all non-physical explanations are equally valid, equally invalid, and, most importantly, equally irrelevant.

    [/quote]

    According to the principle of falsifiability, yes, but I see problems in the principle of falsifiability that lead me to doubt it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #28 - May 08, 2009, 09:07 PM

    I don't think anything is falsifiable, except against a set of assumptions.
    For example, the claim 2+2=5 is not falsifiable. It is possible that you are under the spell of a demon when you reason your way towards 2+2=4. I think induction might be a more reliable method of science, but I am not well-versed in this subject, yet.

    A mental dimension cannot be adequately defined, as language was created to categorize those things which we can detect with our senses. However, if I was pressed I would probably say that the mental dimension is something which is not limited by the boundaries of space; I'm not yet sure about time. Thus, things of the mental dimension cannot collide. That would not be a sufficient description though.


    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    You are simply speaking about undefined non-sense.

    So, yes, there might also be a ajdgoogbis behind the laws of gravity. Whatever that means.

    Quote
    What "further research" are you talking about?

    Psychological research?


    Which is conducted, how?

    Quote
    We have factual evidence of how any change in thought and mental patterns corresponds to a biochemical and electrical change in the brain.

    But what causes these changes in thought and mental patterns?

    It's whatever causes a physical change in the brain.
    if A implies B, and B implies A... Whatever is causing A is also what is causing B

    Quote
    And we have factual evidence of how any change in biochemistry and electricity in the brain corresponds to a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.
    So, yes, "what more do you need?"

    A satisfactory explanation of the nature of consciousness, vision, sensation, etc.


    Define "satisfactory". Give a parameter or a sort of test so anyone can understand how you would label an explanation as "satisfactory".
    If you can't, you are talking about edebuewdhtgv.

    Quote
    That would be like saying that accepting a "material" explanation to mechanics means dismissing further research into examining whether there is a possibility of extra-physical dimensions with intelligent beings instructing matter in the physical world to move here and there.


    Your pursuing a point that I said I wasn't going to seriously argue for. I made that point in order to show you that you shouldn't assume my emotions are getting in the way of my rational capacity. If I did the same, it would lead to absurdities in our discussion, as you seem to realize.


    But you are the one asking for an explanation to take into account... what exactly? Something that you can't even define.
    So, yeah, it does look like your emotions are impairing your rational capacity.

    Quote
    Like I said, removing the physical components that collectively produce vision, and witnessing that this results in blindness, we have logically shown nothing more than that the physical components are an essential ingredient in the production of vision. But we have not shown that it is the only ingredient.

    I want to seriously consider whether we can reasonably assume that it is the physical components and nothing else that produce this phenomenon which cannot be described in physical terms, except to describe the physical effects that this phenomenon can have on the body when it changes.

    If something doesn't function without its "physical components", you can assume whatever you want about the "non-physical components"... it will simply be completely unfalsifiable: so all non-physical explanations are equally valid, equally invalid, and, most importantly, equally irrelevant.


    According to the principle of falsifiability, yes, but I see problems in the principle of falsifiability that lead me to doubt it.

    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #29 - May 09, 2009, 07:58 AM

    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    You are simply speaking about undefined non-sense.

    So, yes, there might also be a ajdgoogbis behind the laws of gravity. Whatever that means.


    You must have a reason to theorize the existence of ajdgoogbis. You must be theorizing it in order to explain something which cannot be explained in a better way.

    Quote
    Which is conducted, how?


    Replicate a physical body identical to the ones humans have and do psycholigical experiments on it, as you would on a human, and see if it appears to possess consciousness, sensation, emotion, etc.

    Quote
    It's whatever causes a physical change in the brain.
    if A implies B, and B implies A... Whatever is causing A is also what is causing B


    So what is this cause(s)?

    Quote
    Define "satisfactory". Give a parameter or a sort of test so anyone can understand how you would label an explanation as "satisfactory".
    If you can't, you are talking about edebuewdhtgv.


    Satisfactory as in something which I just feel like approving of.

    How about you just give me the explanation that is satisfactory to you.

    Quote
    But you are the one asking for an explanation to take into account... what exactly? Something that you can't even define.
    So, yeah, it does look like your emotions are impairing your rational capacity.


    No, I just don't assume that if there is something which I can't fully describe or explain right now, then it must not exist. I acknowledge my own limitations.

    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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