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Theme Changer

 Topic: "Islamofascism"?

 (Read 8261 times)
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  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #30 - March 21, 2009, 01:23 PM

    FF,

    I know that the Baath Party are quite illiberal, but I still think Syria is better than her neighbours, especially in terms of women's rights.

    Syria aided in the destruction (genocided by the millions) southern christian lebanon and replaced it with shiia and now when u goto the super market, on the street, ppl are speaking iranian.



    That's true, Souk al Hammadiyah (the main souk in that country) has a huge Iranian and Shiite sector, you can hear a lot of Persian there and especially around the two Shiite shrines

    Anyway, Zaephon, I would rather live in Egypt or jordan or Lebanon than Syria, in fact, the only neighbours it's better than in human rights and society would be Saudi Arabia and Iran.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #31 - March 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

    Quote from: FinallyFree
    Why would you want it back? The ideology is filthy and a brutal American takeover is favourable than even one more year than that disgusting type of thinking. It is deeply saddening that these animals are still allowed to reign in Syria and that the Iraqi generals are returning to their positions.

    Just how filthy? "The animals that are allowed to reign in Syria" do a surprisingly good job at suppressing Islamic fundamentalists, do they not?


    At the cost of free-thought, free-speech and human rights. One evil is no better than the other, while I hate the fundamentalist bastards, the self-serving corrupt bastards are no better. The best people to lead the country would be the Pro-Western, liberal group run by the former Vice-President Khaddam and his opposition group. I hope for the day that there is a revolution in their favour, it would forever change the country and the region.

    But that suppresion of FoE is not a Baath problem. That is a problem of having a fragmented group of countries that was drawn with a pen 60yrs ago. When a minority has to rule over a majority and when people in the soup do not play well together. Not everyone had the same experienes the americans have. Not everyone lost 675K people in a civil war, that taught them how to work well together. Not everyone had a religion backbone that promotes larger empires. etc..




    Baal, we aren't talking about Africa here. While Syria and Lebanon could viably be one country, they are fairly distinct in terms of socio-religious groups and traditional culture. 

    Also, it wouldn't matter if the leader of Syria was Sunni, it still would be a fucked up country because the society is horribly backwards and that's got nothing to do with colonalism, in fact no one I've ever spoken to in Syria said anything negative about French influence and they liked it because it's certainly better than what the Turks did.

    Anyway, Baathism is pure fascism, very negative, exceptionally evil blah blah blah the end.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #32 - March 21, 2009, 01:31 PM

    FF,

    I know that the Baath Party are quite illiberal, but I still think Syria is better than her neighbours, especially in terms of women's rights.

    Syria aided in the destruction (genocided by the millions) southern christian lebanon and replaced it with shiia and now when u goto the super market, on the street, ppl are speaking iranian.



    That's true, Souk al Hammadiyah (the main souk in that country) has a huge Iranian and Shiite sector, you can hear a lot of Persian there and especially around the two Shiite shrines

    Anyway, Zaephon, I would rather live in Egypt or jordan or Lebanon than Syria, in fact, the only neighbours it's better than in human rights and society would be Saudi Arabia and Iran.


    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better to be a woman in Syria than there.

    fuck you
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #33 - March 21, 2009, 04:15 PM

    Anyway, Baathism is pure fascism, very negative, exceptionally evil blah blah blah the end.

    If you say so.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #34 - March 22, 2009, 10:27 AM

    Well I don't know anything about Kuwait so I can't judge, but I was just making the point that just because a country can be officially "secular" doesn't make it necessarily free. And Syrian society isn't exactly liberal towards women, in fact Iranian society seems more open to women and womens rights!


    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #35 - March 22, 2009, 10:36 AM

    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better [/u] to be a woman in Syria than there.


    Secular Syria somehow decriminalizes honor killings in its Penal Code. Syria: Article 548 of the Penal Code states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

    Note, not only husbands but brothers or other male relatives can carry out the honor killing, there's no such right in Kuwait's Penal code. Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #36 - March 22, 2009, 10:41 AM

    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better [/u] to be a woman in Syria than there.


    Secular Syria somehow decriminalizes honor killings in its Penal Code. Syria: Article 548 of the Penal Code states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

    Note, not only husbands but brothers or other male relatives can carry out the honor killing, there's no such right in Kuwait's Penal code. Roll Eyes


    Exactly, no country can be called secular if it mixes French civil law and Sharia in one. Well, secular in comparison to Saudi Arabia!

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #37 - March 22, 2009, 12:22 PM

    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better [/u] to be a woman in Syria than there.


    Secular Syria somehow decriminalizes honor killings in its Penal Code. Syria: Article 548 of the Penal Code states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

    Note, not only husbands but brothers or other male relatives can carry out the honor killing, there's no such right in Kuwait's Penal code. Roll Eyes


    Full text of the code and source, please.

    fuck you
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #38 - March 22, 2009, 12:32 PM

    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better [/u] to be a woman in Syria than there.


    Secular Syria somehow decriminalizes honor killings in its Penal Code. Syria: Article 548 of the Penal Code states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

    Note, not only husbands but brothers or other male relatives can carry out the honor killing, there's no such right in Kuwait's Penal code. Roll Eyes


    Full text of the code and source, please.


    You low down dirty rat. I've seen your silly debates elsewhere and usually you talk out of your hole  but that's fine, and you never provide any proof or any source and now you want the full text?  Disgusting tactics!

    Anyway, like most penal codes it's not exactly available online. But there are many reputable sites that refer to it and all have the quote worded exactly the same:

    http://www.insidejustice.com/law/index.php/intl/2008/11/13/p120
    http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=ia&ID=IA28006&Page=archives
    http://reformsyria.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2777:syrian-womens-rights-activist-bassam-al-qadhi-the-syrian-government-is-lenient-towards-honor-crimes-do-we-need-10-million-syrian-women-to-be-killed-before-we-face-up-to-the-problem&catid=43:intellectual&Itemid=168
    http://blogs.amnesty.org.uk/blogs_entry.asp?eid=1923

    Happy? You have amnesty and Memri there as well! It's article 548 and they all refer to it in the same way.

    Anyway, it is apparant from your debating techniques that you don't care about the truth, you just want to be right all the time

    Good day.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #39 - March 22, 2009, 05:38 PM

    What about the other Gulf States-- Kuwait for example? Definitely better [/u] to be a woman in Syria than there.


    Secular Syria somehow decriminalizes honor killings in its Penal Code. Syria: Article 548 of the Penal Code states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

    Note, not only husbands but brothers or other male relatives can carry out the honor killing, there's no such right in Kuwait's Penal code. Roll Eyes


    Full text of the code and source, please.


    You low down dirty rat. I've seen your silly debates elsewhere and usually you talk out of your hole  but that's fine, and you never provide any proof or any source and now you want the full text?  Disgusting tactics!


    Settle down Beavis. First off, it's just an internet debate/discussion, nothing to get so upset about. Second, it was not a tactic, it was a question. But that was a nice Edward G. Robinson impression.

    Anyhow, rather than you assigning unfounded nefarious motives to my question, allow me to explain exactly why I asked it. While the law cited is prima facie discriminatory against women and morally objectionable, through having to know case law, statutory law and contracts as a function of my job/activism, I long ago realized you can't hang your hat on one section of the law. You have to look at it in context of other parts of the code and caselaw and also see how it has been applied by the police and the courts (granted if it is a civil law system, application/interpretation will not be as important as under a common law system).

    In this particular instance my questions would be (1) what exactly is the penalty that is being waived (which none of your sources address) and (2) what is the penalty that is instead imposed (which one of your sources did partially address by claiming a typical sentence for an honor killing is between three months and three years).

    So while it's clear the law is wrong, what is not so clear from the post I was questioning is just how bad it is. For example, if the typical punishment is death for murder, but in honor killings it is only 20 years imprisonment, that's not nearly as bad as only giving the offender a fine. In point of fact, killing your spouse because you caught them cheating on you is still considered a common law mitigating circumstance in some US states that can result in a reduction of the charge. Not that I'm defending that practice by any means, but I'm trying to say that form of discrimination against women is not nearly as bad as how the Taliban deals with honor killings.

    So that's why I was asking and one of your links at least partially answered one of my curiosities.
    Quote
    you just want to be right all the time


    Doesn't everyone?

    Quote
    Good day.


    See, that's what I love about you Brits. Even when you're insulting people and calling them names you're polite.

    fuck you
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #40 - March 22, 2009, 08:15 PM

    You low down dirty rat.

    That part could have been omitted I think.  Tongue

    Anyway since you had, presumably, read the code in question online requesting a link to it was perfectly reasonable IMO. It's common to demand a reference when someone asserts something online. Carry on.  parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #41 - March 22, 2009, 08:26 PM

    What I dislike most about the term Islamofascism is the implication that all good Muslims are as a consequence Fascists.

    My main concern - as always - is that the majority of ordinary Muslims are not demonised.

    It is essential to differentiate between hard-line forms of Islam and the Islam of most Muslims.

    Regardless of what your opinion is of what constitutes 'true Islam' - surely anyone who cares about the majority of ordinary Muslims can understand the reason why we shouldn't paint Islam with one brush and should avoid terms like Islamofascists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #42 - March 22, 2009, 08:38 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    What I dislike most about the term Islamofascism is the implication that all good Muslims are as a consequence Fascists.

    I don't think this is the case.

    Islamofascism is a term that is applied to some Islamic governments and to Islamic radicals. The very term "Islamofascism" implies that these people are not ordinary Muslims but follow a mixture of Islam and fascism.

    Some Turkish leftists use the term without any concern. So?

    Quote from:
    Regardless of what your opinion is of what constitutes 'true Islam' - surely anyone who cares about the majority of ordinary Muslims can understand the reason why we shouldn't paint Islam with one brush and should avoid terms like Islamofascists.

    I disagree through and through.

    The difference between stereotyping Muslims and "painting Islam with one brush" is fundamental, and you are confusing the two. I see nothing wrong with the term Islamofascism. What you suggest amounts to sheltering Islam from criticism. It adequately describes several political movements in the Islamic world: Hamas, for example.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #43 - March 22, 2009, 08:45 PM

    What you suggest amounts to sheltering Islam from criticism.


    That obviously not what I'm suggesting Zaephon - since I criticize Islam all the time.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #44 - March 22, 2009, 09:03 PM

    What you suggest amounts to sheltering Islam from criticism.


    That obviously not what I'm suggesting Zaephon - since I criticize Islam all the time.

    Yes you do Hassan, but with all due respect there always seems to be an element of reluctance about it, too. A warning against "painting Muslims with one brush" is something I can accept in some circumstances, but "painting Islam with one brush" I'll never accept. Why this particular phrasing?

    Even when I put myself in your shoes, I see nothing wrong with the term Islamofascism. It suggests a mixture of Islam and fascism, not a predominance of fascism in Islamic tradition. There are some "right-wing xenophobes" who find the term disagreeable for this very reason.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #45 - March 22, 2009, 09:32 PM

    It suggests a mixture of Islam and fascism, not a predominance of fascism in Islamic tradition.


    OK, well when you put it that way, it doesn't sound so bad.

    My worry is always how idiots pick up on these sorts of slogans.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #46 - March 22, 2009, 09:42 PM

    OK, well when you put it that way, it doesn't sound so bad.

    My worry is always how idiots pick up on these sorts of slogans.

    Idiots pick up on all kinds of things.

     far away hug

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #47 - March 23, 2009, 02:24 AM

    You low down dirty rat.

    That part could have been omitted I think.  Tongue


    What do you mean? That was the best part! Some real Jimmy Cagney shit there. And for the record, I am low-down and dirty, but I've never been a rat.

    fuck you
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #48 - March 23, 2009, 02:39 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    What I dislike most about the term Islamofascism is the implication that all good Muslims are as a consequence Fascists.

    I don't think this is the case.

    Islamofascism is a term that is applied to some Islamic governments and to Islamic radicals. The very term "Islamofascism" implies that these people are not ordinary Muslims but follow a mixture of Islam and fascism.

    Some Turkish leftists use the term without any concern. So?


    Except Cheetah's the only one on this thread who's made any attempt to demonstrate such an animal actually exists, and I'd still like some more details on the organization she mentioned.

    Quote
    I disagree through and through.

    The difference between stereotyping Muslims and "painting Islam with one brush" is fundamental, and you are confusing the two. I see nothing wrong with the term Islamofascism. What you suggest amounts to sheltering Islam from criticism. It adequately describes several political movements in the Islamic world: Hamas, for example.


    You keep conflating reaction and fascism, but while all fascism is reactionary and totalitarian, not all reactionary and totalitarian movements are fascist. I'm sure you'll do your little eye-rolling smiley and say "Whatever, close enough" again, or something to that effect, but words mean things. Defining ideologies clearly is important if you really want to analyze and deal with the issue. While Hamas does share some elements in common with fascism I'm not convinced it's actually fascist. If you bring me some evidence it is, I promise to keep an open mind, but please remember general examples of a reactionary, bigoted totalitarian ideology is not necessarily evidence if elements that are unique to fascism are not present.

    The only groups in the Muslim world presently that I'm aware are actually based on a fascist ideological and organizational model are not Muslim but Christian and secular-- the Phalange and the Baath. Like I said, Cheetah mentioned another group that is Muslim, but I don't know anything about them.

    fuck you
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #49 - March 23, 2009, 02:47 AM

    What I dislike most about the term Islamofascism is the implication that all good Muslims are as a consequence Fascists.

    My main concern - as always - is that the majority of ordinary Muslims are not demonised.

    It is essential to differentiate between hard-line forms of Islam and the Islam of most Muslims.

    Regardless of what your opinion is of what constitutes 'true Islam' - surely anyone who cares about the majority of ordinary Muslims can understand the reason why we shouldn't paint Islam with one brush and should avoid terms like Islamofascists.

    I bolded the term 'hard-line forms of islam'. The worst aspect of the hard-line form of islam is not just that they implement honor killing of young women and lead to stagnation. The worst aspect of hard-line islam, is that it generates fascist regimes. Even among the more secular of the regimes.

    the majority of muslims are good people just like the majority of russians during the USSR were good people. But the majority of islamic countries are fascist. Worse. Most of the good muslim did not yet make the co-relation that islam leads to fascism and as such they are happily marching and waving the flag, like hundreds of millions of chinese waved the flag for their butcher chairman mao.

    The term islamofascism is an excellent term. It is very clear for the average person, that the term is a political term. Denoting those attempting to mix state with religion. And it brings the message home to the average muslim, that his own Dar is run by fascists.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #50 - March 29, 2009, 05:09 AM

    Q-Man,

    Your point about nationalism is cogent. 

    To the extent that people use the term "Islamofascism" to restrict themselves to modern movements in Islam, and furthermore to modern movements that use a nation-state and its inspirational local mythology as a vehicle for their dictatorial projects, it can be a perfectly fine term -- as long as by doing so, they do not simultaneously interdict analysis of the broader and deeper aspects of Islam that present a threat to us.

    The problem arises when the term by its nature tends to protect Islam itself from criticism -- both by delimiting the problem to modern times, and also by delimiting the problem to modern "hijackings" or "misunderstandings" of Islam.

    Furthermore, nationalism is a Western concept.  It was grafted on to Muslim regions by the Colonial West -- regions already markedly weakened by various factors including the astounding power of the modern West -- and then some brilliant and/or canny dictators exploited the concept (Nasser, Khadafy, Saddam, etc.).

    For our purposes, trying to protect ourselves from a metastasizing global revival of a militaristic and supremacist Islam, the term "Islamofascism" tends to reinforce the politically correct multi-culturalist paradigm, whose central axiom is that Islam is harmless and that the only danger comes from a "tiny minority" of "extremists" who are trying to "hijack" Islam.  By thus irrationally delimiting the problem, it will serve to keep us in ignorance of the motivations and tactics of those who want to destroy our way of life and as part of that desire to kill as many of us as the realization of that ideal takes.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #51 - March 31, 2009, 12:54 PM

    I forgot about this thread.

    Well, the "Turkish-Islamic synthesis" in Turkey, represented by the Nationalist Movement Party, is literally Islamofascist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist_Movement_Party

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: "Islamofascism"?
     Reply #52 - March 31, 2009, 05:31 PM

    I forgot about this thread.

    Well, the "Turkish-Islamic synthesis" in Turkey, represented by the Nationalist Movement Party, is literally Islamofascist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist_Movement_Party


    Interesting. Based on the Wikipedia article it definitely seems like they have attributes which may classify them as fascist. Didn't see anything about the Islamic part, plus I could use more info on the fascist part too (e.g. do they include corporatism or some statist-nationalist analogue in their ideology?). Their extreme nationalism makes them good candidates for fascism but I'd have to see more before I judged.

    Do you know of any good articles on them in English? The wikipedia article is a bit light and google's not helping much.

    fuck you
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