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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Halal, Kosher & other types of animal sacrifices ought to be banned  (Voting closed: March 28, 2009, 07:29 PM)
  • Yes - 12 (54.5%)
  • No - 7 (31.8%)
  • Not sure - 0 (0%)
  • Don't care either way - 3 (13.6%)
  • Total Voters: 22

 Topic: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat

 (Read 12942 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #60 - March 24, 2009, 05:40 PM

    That's not the only reason. Kosher law (and I think halal, correct me if I'm wrong) says the animal must be treated humanely, and in the days before bolt guns, slitting an animal's throat while upside down was a very humane method. I know people are emotionally moved by watching videos of this stuff, but the animal loses consciousness very quickly, most of the writhing around is pure reflex. Ever seen a chicken after it's been decapitated? The body keeps moving around for a bit-- pure reflex, which is why many farmers prefer to wring a chicken's neck than chop it off.


    People are obviously moved by watching videos of this stuff because we live in cities, get our meat prepacked and most of us do not experience this sort of thing. It is not a normal thing for us to see. But that is how you get your meat, whether you like it or not.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #61 - March 24, 2009, 05:46 PM

    Quote
    I do think it is a non-issue because I think that killing animals in a halal or kosher manner is not that different to the conventional method of killing an animal. Even in the conventional method of slaughter, the animal has be kept alive and bled. At the end of the day, the animal is killed in a similar way to how it would be killed in a conventional abbatoir resulting in the same end - meat.


    If there was no difference muslims and Jews would be able to eat non-hala/kosher meat.  So obviously there is a difference in the method of slaughter.

    Quote
    I think you are very wrong in calling the racist element tiny and insignificant because I believe that the racist element is what has made it such a big issue today.


    Total non-sequitur.  Contradicting what you believe does not make me "very wrong".  Have you any evidence that a) this is "such a big issue"?  (I've barely ever heard it mentioned outside this thread), and b) that the racist element has made it so?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #62 - March 24, 2009, 05:50 PM

    At the end of the day, the animal is killed in a similar way to how it would be killed in a conventional abbatoir resulting in the same end - meat.

    The end is the same, even if it dies in its sleep of natural causes whilst dreaming of eating grass? It does not make it any less callous, you dont raise much of a point there
    Quote
    I do think it is a non-issue because I think that killing animals in a halal or kosher manner is not that different to the conventional method of killing an animal. Even in the conventional method of slaughter, the animal has be kept alive and bled.

    The essential difference is that the blood draining is done when it has been stunned and is already brain dead.  The halal way means this is done whilst it is still alive.  A fundamental difference dont you think?  

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  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #63 - March 24, 2009, 06:02 PM

    That's not the only reason. Kosher law (and I think halal, correct me if I'm wrong) says the animal must be treated humanely, and in the days before bolt guns, slitting an animal's throat while upside down was a very humane method. I know people are emotionally moved by watching videos of this stuff, but the animal loses consciousness very quickly, most of the writhing around is pure reflex. Ever seen a chicken after it's been decapitated? The body keeps moving around for a bit-- pure reflex, which is why many farmers prefer to wring a chicken's neck than chop it off.


    People are obviously moved by watching videos of this stuff because we live in cities, get our meat prepacked and most of us do not experience this sort of thing. It is not a normal thing for us to see. But that is how you get your meat, whether you like it or not.


    Exactly. Modern urban society, especially in more well-to-do communities, has become very divorced from the dirty realities that provide the foundations for their society's very existence, and when shown some of these things, people living in that environment can become very upset (is it any wonder that most animal-rights activists are from the middle or upper class?). Now that's not to say all these dirty little realities are just things we have to live with-- some are plainly abhorrent and should be fought (though I think the fight on many issues has to come from the working-class). However, it also means that certain dirty things that are out of the everyday experience of an urban middle-class person can seem a lot worse than they actually are. This is a good example. Relatively speaking, koshering is a humane way of killing an animal-- not as humane as stunning first (which I would definitely favor), but not nearly inhumane enough to start running roughshod over people's right to the free exercise of their religious rituals. I have a feeling that those who have never killed anything more than a bug will have a different opinion on this subject than those who actually have killed before.

    Although I disagree with her on this and other animal welfare issues, I think Cheetah raised a very good point that reforming factory farming needs to be way higher up on the list of priorities. After all, there is no religious component to that, and it is, in my opinion, not just an animal welfare issue, but a public health issue as well.

    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #64 - March 24, 2009, 06:08 PM

    Quote
    I do think it is a non-issue because I think that killing animals in a halal or kosher manner is not that different to the conventional method of killing an animal. Even in the conventional method of slaughter, the animal has be kept alive and bled. At the end of the day, the animal is killed in a similar way to how it would be killed in a conventional abbatoir resulting in the same end - meat.


    If there was no difference muslims and Jews would be able to eat non-hala/kosher meat.  So obviously there is a difference in the method of slaughter.

    Quote
    I think you are very wrong in calling the racist element tiny and insignificant because I believe that the racist element is what has made it such a big issue today.


    Total non-sequitur.  Contradicting what you believe does not make me "very wrong".  Have you any evidence that a) this is "such a big issue"?  (I've barely ever heard it mentioned outside this thread), and b) that the racist element has made it so?


    It is more or less the same, but there is that religious element attached to it. So why should we discriminate against people because of their religion? Here is a video of an animal being killed in a secular abattoir (if there is such a thing!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OD683YQCOY

    And here is a video showing halal slaughter

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEAtaLp137E&feature=related

    Secondly, I have been hearing this debate for the whole of my adult life, but especially since 9/11, possibly because Muslims have been more in the spotlight since then. It was being debated on "The Big Questions" on BBC1 only 2 weeks ago! This debate began as a racist debate. Racists use it as a means to attack Muslims and Jews whilst trying to show that they have a legitimate reason to attack it.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #65 - March 24, 2009, 06:11 PM

    If anyone feels bad about throwing lobsters in a boiling pot of water, some guy invented a lobster stunner. Too bad it costs $4,000 .

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4097798.stm

    B AfroB

    Lobsters cannot suffer, AFAIK.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #66 - March 24, 2009, 06:54 PM

    Quote
    Lobsters cannot suffer, AFAIK.


    Ahaa! This study agrees with you.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManagement/story?id=722163

    OK, then. I don't feel so bad. I'm gonna boil one of those little bastards tonight then!

    BYum YumB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #67 - March 24, 2009, 07:12 PM

    If anyone feels bad about throwing lobsters in a boiling pot of water, some guy invented a lobster stunner. Too bad it costs $4,000 .

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4097798.stm

    B AfroB

    Lobsters cannot suffer, AFAIK.


    Your PETA and ALF memberships are hereby revoked, Zaephon. Limit your heresy to Islam. Smiley

    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #68 - March 24, 2009, 08:23 PM

    Your PETA and ALF memberships are hereby revoked, Zaephon. Limit your heresy to Islam. Smiley

    Heresy... hmmm.

    The commotion raised by PETA does not reflect scientific truth. Lobsters have very primitive nervous systems. Boiling alive an octopus is cruel, boiling alive a lobster is not. I dislike PETA anyway, they routinely euthanise animals entrusted to them.

    PETA tries to appease some very anthropomorphic ideals in trying to advocate animal rights, wherefore they fail miserably. Lobster Empathy Centre, my ass.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #69 - March 24, 2009, 11:54 PM

    anthropomorphic ideals in trying to advocate animal rights

    You knowledge of the English language, particularly as a second language, never ceases to amaze me

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #70 - March 25, 2009, 08:15 AM

    anthropomorphic ideals in trying to advocate animal rights

    You knowledge of the English language, particularly as a second language, never ceases to amaze me

    Um.. thanks. "Anthropomorphic" is an increasingly popular word though.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #71 - March 27, 2009, 01:08 PM

    The jury is not out yet on Lobsters not feeling pain!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7966807.stm

    Crabs feel pain.

    I've heard they can also be very itchy.

    B:'(B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
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