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 Topic: Is an islamic reformation under way ?

 (Read 13953 times)
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  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     OP - March 25, 2009, 01:01 AM

     Gina Khan at http://www.democratiya.com/review.asp?reviews_id=236              asserts that there is an islamic reformation under way . As a devout atheist  I'd rather see the whole nonsense disappear completely ( along with all the other superstitions of course ...) , but the world would certainly be a better place if islam started to make more of an accommodation with logic and modernity , the way christianity has for most people .
      But I have to say , it 's not the impression I'm getting . I'm not muslim but I live in an area where half the population are , and I work for a public service alongside several muslims . It seems to me that , if anything , it's going the other way . I see a lot more hijabs , niqabs and even burqas on the street , and there are hizb ut tahir stickers and posters all over the place . At work colleagues wander off to pray at innopportune moments , something that never used to happen a few years ago , and I find people don't talk as freely about certain things .
      So I just wondered what people here think , especially those of you from muslim backgrounds . Are muslims becoming more liberal ? Am I reading too much into a handful of nutters ?
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2009, 04:55 AM

    First of all, I tremendously respect this woman Gina Khan, although she wears the label of a "Secular Muslim", I think she'd be better labeled a "Secular humanist", but whatever she chooses to call herself is fine with me. I too think that the best & easiest course of action for Muslims would be simply Reformation, rather than wholesale eradication, which is sure to cause much more psycholigical trauma to the devout, not to mention that its ripple effects can cause tremendous upheaval in the non Muslim world as well.

    However, I see certain genuine problems with Reformation:

    First, even if all the hadiths are discredited-the Quran will have to remain as the bedrock of the faith or Islam will be reformed out of existence. In the Quran itself, unlike in any other religious faith-there're unequivocal calls to kill "unbelievers". While the Christian & Jewish scriptures too can provide ample support for intolerance & have, the people that the OT urges to kill are Canaanites, Ammonites, Hittite, Perizzite etc. While an intolerant Jew or Muslim may very well interpret these to extend to other people-& historically often have, especially Christians-there were significant elements in both faiths to counter this. Judaism hasn't been a proselytizing faith, it can & does happily co exist with other faiths which don't cause any threat to it-even with idolaters, be it the Indians or the Pre Islamic Arab polytheists, it also accepts the doctrine of Universal Salvation so non Jews aren't believed to be burning in Hell & thus there is no urgency to either convert or despise them. Christianity inherited the problematic "violent" bits of the OT, to compound that, they added on the doctrine of salvation only to Christians-a potentially intolerant combo-with similar intolerant results from the obliteration of Hellenic pagans to the ruthless conquistadores.

    Yet even Christianity had a very strong basis for Reformation-namely Jesus Christ.Christian children or adults are urged to be Christ like-which is surely quite an example worth emulation. Despite a few of his words, "I come not to bring peace...but a sword" the example that his life provides is one of endless tolerance & forgiveness, while Jews were persecuted by Christians for deicide Jesus had urged nothing but forgiveness & while Jesus' followers often persecuted other faiths Jesus personally never did.

    Islam offers precious little glimmer of hope in this regard. Not only does the Quran preach exclusivist salvation, it also asks readers to persecute, not extinct groups of people like "Canaanites" & "Ammorites" but mentions people by faith-Kill the idolater, Torture the Jew, Torment the Christian..." etc. This is further compounded by Prophet Mohammed's actions. While Christian children are urged to be like Jesus, Mohammed is the ideal man-the insaan i kamil for Muslims & regarded as an example for all time-unfortunately there are few misdeeds he didn't so. He unlike Jesus personally destroyed Arab polytheism by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them should they come out of their homes to protect their idols, reduced the Jews to second class status from their former equality. Little basis for tolerance in him, his personal life too is seriously questionable to say the least.Also, unlike the OT Prophets or Hindu gods-Mo is not simply one of plentiful important theological figures in Islam-he is the most important character-his life is the role model. This primacy of Mohammed is repeated many times over in the Quran, Mo the mortal's authority is granted almost the same importance as Allah the immortal's.
     
    The Qur'an 33:36, {It is not for a believing man nor a believing women, when
    Allah and His Messenger
    have decreed a matter, to have the choice in their
    affair; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has surely gone astray
    in manifest error.}

    The Qur'an 4:59, {O you who believe!  Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and
    those of you who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any
    matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger
    if you believe in Allah and the
    Last Day; that is best and more suitable to the end.}

    When Muslims recite the first article of faith-the Shahada-they repeat that Allah is the Only God & Mohammed is the Prophet of Allah. Notice the proximity with Divinity in which the Quran places him.

    IMO, if a religious figure is this central to his faith-be it Jesus in Christianity, Buddha in Buddhism or Mohammed in Islam, it becomes of utmost importance that the bulk of his actions are admirable, at least not repulsive, in Mohammed's case this is sadly not so. Cry

    Finally there is the Quran itself, it isn't some great reservoir of tolerance or contemporary wishdom-even if Muslims discard the hadiths.

    There are explicit permissions from Allah about wife beating, women's rights of inheritance is less than men's & on almost half the pages, the Quran urges believers to either kill or torment unbelievers.

    Also, despite contemporary Muslims's claims that Arabic is a very complex language, Allah declares in the Quran that the faith was revealed in Arabic & in all clarity so that people comprehend, so if the language muddles the mind of believers regarding the Quran's contents, another of Allah's claims are nullified.
       
    "Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." [12:2]
     إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

    "Behold, We have made it a Qur'an in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand." [43:3]

    The problem is worsened due to Muslim belief that the Quran is not simply the inspired word of Allah- as most Jews & Christians' hold their Scriptures to be-but the word of Allah reproduced  verbatim. Quran means "recitation" Mohammed simply recited whatever Allah dictated via angel Gabriel. Obviously, changing the only God's inspired words are a possibility, whereas changing His dictation is tougher.

    All these reasons make me uncertain about any possible Reformation. mysmilie_977



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2009, 05:15 AM

     Thanks for the reply . I think all the 'holy' books are full of dangerous nonsense ,though I certainly take your point about the unsavoury character of mohammed . I've never believed in god , but I can understand why people might think there is some kind of higher power , but suspending your critical faculties in favour of total submission to some medieval text is just incomprehensible to me .
     The fact is , other religions ( apart from the extremist fringes ) have been watered down by a tacit acceptance amongst believers that it's not realistic or sensible to take every word literally , or apply it to the modern world . But there still seems to be a worrying trend among muslims to refuse ( at least openly ..) to even think about holding any aspect up to scrutiny . I would really like to think there was a growing trend amongst muslims to critically evaluate their faith , as Gina Khan seems to be suggesting , but I just don't see much sign of it .
       I'd be delighted to be proved wrong .
     (of course it doesn't exactly help that brave souls like Hirsi Ali are met with death threats )
     
     
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2009, 05:34 AM

    I too see no signs of a Reformation, but if Reformation is not an option, wholesale eradication is the only other option. One major stumbling block is maybe Prophet Mohammed himself, most of the unpleasant things any human could do, Mohammed did. Islam is not only a faith with many gods or many Prophet figures, it accords a certain centrality to a single individual Mohammed. Without Mohammed, the faith cannot exist-just like Buddhism doesn't exist without Buddha or Christianity without Jesus. A Chrisitian might not like aspects of either Jesus or Christianity, but he\she won't be able to say too many objectionable stuff about Jesus, simply coz there's not enough  such stuff against him. Hirsi Ali however, could openly criticise Mo, & did calling him a "pervert". If Jesus is discredited as a good human, the faith falls like a house of cards. Maybe thats' the reason Muslims are hesitant to look at their faith squarely in the face?  Thinking hard

    Also, all Scriptures maybe a product of their times & related to the specific need of particular communities, but Allah is not just the maker of the entire Quran, He also orders some stuff just for Mohammed's convenience. Like the following verses:


    Quran 033.053

    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity.
    PICKTHAL: O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.

    When Almighty Allah is concerned about the length of time guests spend at Mohammed's house or insists they refrain from barging in coz it annoys Mo, He seems less and less like Almighty God, and more and more like Alter Ego What say?

    Naturally, if Muslims begin to scrutinize their faith, & Mohammed is discredited either as a good human being or as a Prophet, the God Mohammed preached about- Allah, who had not only given moral (& immoral) principles but also acted as Mo's Spokesperson by going as far as to insist that Mohammed's guests not barge in to his house & depart  quickly after a meal so as not to annoy him, claiming that while Mo was shy to reveal this, Allah had no compunction in saying this-automatically Allah too is discredited with Mohammed-& with critical scrutiny nothing of the faith remains viable.
       

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2009, 06:06 AM

     - get your dinner down you as fast as you can and don't go trying to start a conversation...  miserable bastard , old Mo , wasn't he ?
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2009, 07:48 AM

    With that attitude, I dont know why he bothered inviting them round in the first place

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2009, 11:52 AM

    With that attitude, I dont know why he bothered inviting them round in the first place

    - get your dinner down you as fast as you can and don't go trying to start a conversation...  miserable bastard , old Mo , wasn't he ?


     Cheesy Agree with both of you!

    Another problem with Islam, as I see it is that it contributed little of worth other than a vision of world conquest. Uncompromising monotheism was a feature of Judaism & Zoroastrianism, Buddhism & Christianity were already proselytizing faiths, Christianity was a faith denying salvation to non Christians & all the myths Mo wove into his stories already existed.

    Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism & certain paganisms like the Egyptian faiths created their theology & mythology from scratch-while Jesus in Judaism supposedly did make certain improvements(stoning, unilateral male repudiation)as did Buddha in prevailing Hindu beliefs(universal equality, banning animal sacrifices etc) Mohammed who clearly visualized his mission as updating Judaism & Christianity-contributed nothing of great worth which was lacking before in these two.

    New faiths should contribute something lacking before, an improvement over already existing standards of ethics & an increasingly sophisticated understanding of the spiritual world.For instance the Bahai faith in 19th century Iran, unequivocally gave women equality & right to suffrage, before any country's Government did. Mohammed simply reproduced Judeo-Christian beliefs in a garbled form, easy for someone who had Jewish-Christian acquaintances & added laws of marriage, divorce, inheritance etc as was prevalent in certain tribes of Arabia & which suited his taste.

    Offended for some reason by Mecca's idolatry, he sought to wean people away from it, first unsuccessfully by preaching, then by brute force-& enforced the Jewish style monotheism which must've impressed him. He also fantasised himself as the Jews' & Christians latest & greatest Prophet sent to update their faiths, & on being repulsed by them, regretfully distanced his faith from those but still retained a place for them as second class faiths, in his new belief system. Certainly it satisfied the Arabs, in close proximity with Jews & Christians, that God has a message for them too, its the last & best message, in their language-& a vehicle for their world conquest via jihad and spiritual conquest by requiring believers to prostrate towards Arabia five times a day but nothing more than a set of plagiarisms are there & little or no original thought. It certainly makes grandoise claims for itself regarding its quality(produce a Surah like it) from even makes atrocious demands from non believers(additional taxes) but has little to show for those claims.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2009, 12:31 PM

    Gina Khan at http://www.democratiya.com/review.asp?reviews_id=236              asserts that there is an islamic reformation under way . As a devout atheist  I'd rather see the whole nonsense disappear completely ( along with all the other superstitions of course ...) , but the world would certainly be a better place if islam started to make more of an accommodation with logic and modernity , the way christianity has for most people .
      But I have to say , it 's not the impression I'm getting . I'm not muslim but I live in an area where half the population are , and I work for a public service alongside several muslims . It seems to me that , if anything , it's going the other way . I see a lot more hijabs , niqabs and even burqas on the street , and there are hizb ut tahir stickers and posters all over the place . At work colleagues wander off to pray at innopportune moments , something that never used to happen a few years ago , and I find people don't talk as freely about certain things .
      So I just wondered what people here think , especially those of you from muslim backgrounds . Are muslims becoming more liberal ? Am I reading too much into a handful of nutters ?


    I see evidence for both liberalization and radicalization.

    I think we are too close to unfolding events to say for sure - but my opinion is fundamentalism is making a last and increasingly desperate stand and that eventually it will burn out and Muslims will liberalize.

  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2009, 01:06 PM


    I see evidence for both liberalization and radicalization.

    I think we are too close to unfolding events to say for sure - but my opinion is fundamentalism is making a last and increasingly desperate stand and that eventually it will burn out and Muslims will liberalize.


    I see that happening too, and thats without my optimistic, rose-tinted glasses on.

    I find that rather ironically that further muslim radicalisation, terrorism or following the truth behind Islam, is actually the best things that can happen to Islam, and will actually cause its demise. 

    Sadly innocent people will be sacrificed in the short term, but if they keep at it at this rate, then there will be a major reaction (vocally or with their feet) from currently quiet & peaceful muslims who are in the majority, and this will naturally cause change. 

    The idiots will then become a fringe, much the same as modern day KKK, or Nazis.

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2009, 01:47 PM


    I see evidence for both liberalization and radicalization.

    I think we are too close to unfolding events to say for sure - but my opinion is fundamentalism is making a last and increasingly desperate stand and that eventually it will burn out and Muslims will liberalize.


    I see that happening too, and thats without my optimistic, rose-tinted glasses on.

    I find that rather ironically that further muslim radicalisation, terrorism or following the truth behind Islam, is actually the best things that can happen to Islam, and will actually cause its demise. 

    Sadly innocent people will be sacrificed in the short term, but if they keep at it at this rate, then there will be a major reaction (vocally or with their feet) from currently quiet & peaceful muslims who are in the majority, and this will naturally cause change. 

    The idiots will then become a fringe, much the same as modern day KKK, or Nazis.


    I think 911 was a turning point for radical Islam/Fundamentalist Islam.

    You often hear some Muslims claim that more people have entered Islam since 911 blah blah blah...

    Maybe in the short term. Some ppl who didn't know a thing got curious and some got hooked. But in the long term Muslims deep down are disgusted by acts like 911 and are slowly (inch by inch so no-one notices) shuffling further and further away from the fundamentalist versions of Islam.

    In the short term I also think many were attracted because they found out Islam is not all Hook-handed gargoyled-faced mad Mullahs beheading unbelievers - which also highlights the danger of being extreme and unbalanced when criticising Islam because when sane and intelligent people are given a distorted picture then discover that it was (at least partially) untrue, they may go completely the other way and fall for the sugar-coated version - which is why I keep saying we must be balanced, and intelligent in out criticism or we end up undermining our arguments to people who have researched it thoroughly.

  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2009, 02:51 PM

    I agree with you Hassan.  Intelligent, balanced and well thought out criticism is the best way to move forward.  Half baked ideas will only serve their agenda, in proving we are just opportunists looking for any way out of performing the daily slog of rituals & prayer.

    Where I disagree, and perhaps what you may be getting at, is I dont think that this should be at the expense of the occassional light-hearted OTT remarks at how trite some of us really think it is. 

    If its not fun and we're not honest with our true feelings, then we could be in danger of having fewer people left on the forum.  In the end if we have to censor our thoughts, we could end up shooting the messenger.


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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2009, 03:11 PM

    I see evidence for both liberalization and radicalization.
    I think we are too close to unfolding events to say for sure - but my opinion is fundamentalism is making a last and increasingly desperate stand and that eventually it will burn out and Muslims will liberalize.


    Well, liberalization also means a great many things which might lead Islam-at least many versions of Islam- rather close to annihilation. Burkhas, no perfumes, inheritance laws, in fact the entire Shariah is unlikely to remain-so a large part of Islam which Muslims believe are God's verbatim words will have to go. Of course, like Muslims were able to rationalize to themselves that Islam came to abolish slavery although Allah explicitly permits slavery, they maybe able to convince themselves just as easily that Allah gave women half inheritance to ultimately increase to full inheritance, or cruel punishments like lashing only to lead people to more humane punishments or even that it gave restricted rights to other faiths only to help Muslims gradually extend those to full rights.People have enormous capacities for creative re interpretations when it comes to imagining that their faith agrees with their values, even if the reality is glaringly different.

    Another problem is the critical scrutiny under which Islam will be placed post reformation. Christianity has somewhat averted the problem by basing itself on Christ & ignoring God's horriic acts in the OT. Thus, even the most radical atheists like Harris or Dawking accept that Christ was one of the greatest ethical innovators of all time & Christians try to base their lives on Him. The OT's violence nothwithstanding, Jews don't base themselves on any individual Prophet's conduct, they're bound by Rabbinical sayings in the Talmud, the OT is the shared cultural heritage of world Jewry.

    The violence in the OT is the shared heritage of all three faiths-& is not the exclusive problem of any one of them. Islam has the added difficulty of the questionable character of its insaan i kamil Mohammed, who comes right after Allah in the Shahada ie proclamation of faith as well as in the hearts & minds of Muslims.If for whatever reaon Mohammed is discredited as a worthwhile Prophet, the Allah he preached about & who stooped from His Divinity to insist Mohammed's guests not linger in his house is automatically discredited as well. Sooner or later Mohammed's actions are going to be scrutinized by reformed or apostate Muslims-which shakes the faith's foundation to the core. Maybe that's why Dan Brown's story of the "Da Vinci Code" didn't rouse Christians to murderous passion-while Muslims were up in arms over  "The Satanic Verses" or the Danish Motoons-because there're large grains of truth even in those innocent pieces of literature or drawings, which can have catastrophic consequences for the faith itself...

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2009, 05:04 PM

    Dan Brown's story of the "Da Vinci Code" didn't rouse Christians to murderous passion-while Muslims were up in arms over  "The Satanic Verses" or the Danish Motoons-because there're large grains of truth even in those innocent pieces of literature or drawings, which can have catastrophic consequences for the faith itself...

    True, the truth hurts more than fabrication.  Unless Islam reforms then it might even become a dirty word, and die out  in the developed world eventually. 

    Originally the Islamic meme was spread by the sword.   However in a world that this can no longer happen, the meme is no longer spreading.   This frustration may have radicalised a few and lead the sword to evolve into aeroplanes & suicide bombers.  We have yet to see if this strategy has worked.

    However since 9/11, even in Africa, Christianity conversion rates are now massively surpassing the Muslim ones. 

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #13 - March 25, 2009, 06:08 PM

    However since 9/11, even in Africa, Christianity conversion rates are now massively surpassing the Muslim ones. 


    Muslims used to portray themselves as oh-so-free-from-racism & far better than the racist White Christian slavetraders, while they were slavetraders from the 9th century, long before White Christians joined in & continued till the mid 20th century-a millennia after White (Satanic) America outlawed the practice, before outlawing it themselves at the urging of Satanic U.S.A.

    Sadly, as with their other Taqiyya, they couldn't keep up their act for long. No sooner had Obama become President of America, that Zawahiri called him the belittling term for house slave-in their native Arab tongue.  dance

    Hope the Blacks have realised who their real friends are. whistling2

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #14 - March 25, 2009, 06:19 PM

    No sooner had Obama become President of America, that Zawahiri called him the belittling term for house slave


    That has to go down as one of the most WRONG things to have said in 2008

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #15 - March 25, 2009, 06:21 PM

    I too see no signs of a Reformation, but if Reformation is not an option, wholesale eradication is the only other option.


    Okay, how would this take place, exactly? I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate. Seems to me wholesale eradication would require killing the faithful on a level that would make WWII look like a schoolyard brawl, and long-term repression and occupation of Muslim lands that would make China's Cultural Revolution and their treatment of Tibet positively idyllic. In other words, I think the only way Islam could be "eradicated" is by eradicating Muslims and anyone who opposed the eradication of Muslims. Furthermore, even if the non-Muslim nations of the world were willing to do this, I'm not sure they are capable of it.

    We may disagree on whether or not Islam can be liberalized, but clearly that's the only workable option.

    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #16 - March 25, 2009, 06:29 PM

    I too see no signs of a Reformation, but if Reformation is not an option, wholesale eradication is the only other option.


    Okay, how would this take place, exactly? I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate. Seems to me wholesale eradication would require killing the faithful on a level that would make WWII look like a schoolyard brawl, and long-term repression and occupation of Muslim lands that would make China's Cultural Revolution and their treatment of Tibet positively idyllic. In other words, I think the only way Islam could be "eradicated" is by eradicating Muslims and anyone who opposed the eradication of Muslims. Furthermore, even if the non-Muslim nations of the world were willing to do this, I'm not sure they are capable of it.

    We may disagree on whether or not Islam can be liberalized, but clearly that's the only workable option.


    I missed the "wholesale eradication" option - are you serious?

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #17 - March 25, 2009, 06:42 PM

    I too see no signs of a Reformation, but if Reformation is not an option, wholesale eradication is the only other option.


    Okay, how would this take place, exactly? I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate. Seems to me wholesale eradication would require killing the faithful on a level that would make WWII look like a schoolyard brawl, and long-term repression and occupation of Muslim lands that would make China's Cultural Revolution and their treatment of Tibet positively idyllic. In other words, I think the only way Islam could be "eradicated" is by eradicating Muslims and anyone who opposed the eradication of Muslims. Furthermore, even if the non-Muslim nations of the world were willing to do this, I'm not sure they are capable of it.

    We may disagree on whether or not Islam can be liberalized, but clearly that's the only workable option.


    I missed the "wholesale eradication" option - are you serious?


    Wholesale eradication need not mean anything violent or murderous, history is full of dead faiths, some were indeed destroyed violently, others passed away peacefully. The Egyptian faith, the Celtic faiths etc.

    By eradication, I don't mean people are going to give them a "convert or die" option. It means that if reformers are incapable to bring about a change, which they are currently trying earnestly to do & I think there's precious little substance in Islam which bodes well for a reformed faith(which I have explained in my first post on this thread) people being people might choose without any coercion to abandon it for some other faith\belief or no faith.

    Of course, either reformation or eradication is ultimately the choice of Muslims themselves. People don't want to live miserably, they like religion coz it brings some value to their lives & they admire their Prophets oz they think these figures lead the most perfect life posible & by modelling their lives on the Prophet's life, they too can be better people. A faith might simply cease to meet these requirements of people & it might pass away quite non violently. A huge % of Swedes are non believers, while a majority in Haiti are devout, that doesn't mean Lutheranism was eradicated violently in Sweden, it simply failed to meet the Swede's needs. Monarchy was abolished violently in many nations, while others kept a Constitutional Monarch-doesn't mean all transformations to democracy was a bloody battle, in many nations Kingship became obsolete, democracy became acceptable-Kings became Figureheads.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #18 - March 25, 2009, 06:58 PM

    Wholesale eradication need not mean anything violent or murderous, history is full of dead faiths, some were indeed destroyed violently, others passed away peacefully. The Egyptian faith, the Celtic faiths etc.


    The Egyptian and Celtic religions did not "pass away peacefully", they were supplanted by Islam and Christianity, respectively. And there's a big difference in talking about localized, primitive earth-cult religions versus relatively modern and widespread sky-cult religions with many centuries of written tradition, a highly formalized priesthood, liturgy, theology, etc. I can't think of a single religion practiced, relatively speaking, on as large a scale as Islam, that just passed away peacefully.
    Quote
    By eradication, I don't mean people are going to give them a "convert or die" option.


    Realistically, that's the only way it's going to happen

    Quote
    It means that if reformers are incapable to bring about a change, which they are currently trying earnestly to do & I think there's precious little substance in Islam which bodes well for a reformed faith(which I have explained in my first post on this thread) people being people might choose without any coercion to abandon it for some other faith\belief or no faith.


    Back when I was a devout atheist and earnest revolutionary socialist, I used to believe the part I bolded was possible. But nowadays I'm cynical enough to think belief in God is less naive than believing humanity will ever dispose of religious belief entirely on any meaningful scale.

    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #19 - March 25, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate.

    Perfectly possible. In a millennium, we will be living in a world radically different from ours. There is no reason to believe that Islam cannot collapse, being the absurd and brittle religion that it is.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #20 - March 25, 2009, 07:15 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate.

    Perfectly possible. In a millennium, we will be living in a world radically different from ours. There is no reason to believe that Islam cannot collapse, being the absurd and brittle religion that it is.


    I'll grant you that it's possible, and that in a thousand years who the hell knows? However, people being what they are, it doesn't seem very likely to me, at least not in the more near-term, and I really don't think in terms of a thousand years from now, though I once did.

    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #21 - March 25, 2009, 07:55 PM

    I too see no signs of a Reformation, but if Reformation is not an option, wholesale eradication is the only other option.


    Okay, how would this take place, exactly? I don't see Islam just "withering away" as people come to their senses and turn apostate. Seems to me wholesale eradication would require killing the faithful on a level that would make WWII look like a schoolyard brawl, and long-term repression and occupation of Muslim lands that would make China's Cultural Revolution and their treatment of Tibet positively idyllic. In other words, I think the only way Islam could be "eradicated" is by eradicating Muslims and anyone who opposed the eradication of Muslims. Furthermore, even if the non-Muslim nations of the world were willing to do this, I'm not sure they are capable of it.


    Well said - I have been saying exactly this here for a loooong time, Q-Man!

    We may disagree on whether or not Islam can be liberalized, but clearly that's the only workable option.


    Indeed!

    I remember Ali Sina saying back on FFI just after 911 that soon floods of Muslims will be leaving Islam. I doubted it then and I doubt it now.

    What is possible though is that you will get more and more "Muslims" who will be Muslims only in name like you have 'Christians' who are Christians only in name.

    If it means less extremism and keeps them happy, then I'm all for it  Afro
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #22 - March 25, 2009, 08:00 PM

    Wholesale eradication need not mean anything violent or murderous, history is full of dead faiths,


    History is also full of brutal men who took the well-meaning words or scholarly writings of another and turned it into a manifesto for killing.

    I'm quite sure that you, Zaephon and all the other well-intentioned and well-meaning ppl here don't mean violence.

    But you can be sure others will.

    And that is exactly where it will end.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #23 - March 25, 2009, 08:11 PM

    Wholesale eradication need not mean anything violent or murderous, history is full of dead faiths,


    History is also full of brutal men who took the well-meaning words or scholarly writings of another and turned it into a manifesto for killing.

    I'm quite sure that you, Zaephon and all the other well-intentioned and well-meaning ppl here don't mean violence.

    But you can be sure others will.

    And that is exactly where it will end.


    I am still unsure how practical wholesale eradication can be brought about through non-violent means?  Other dead faiths primarlily were brought about by a slow shift in believers thoughts, wholesale eradication implies something more sudden and severe?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #24 - March 26, 2009, 09:23 AM

    I am still unsure how practical wholesale eradication can be brought about through non-violent means?  Other dead faiths primarlily were brought about by a slow shift in believers thoughts, wholesale eradication implies something more sudden and severe?


    Actually I didn't want to imply anything sudden & severe, if my words have given you that impression, that surely was not my intention-I did & do mean a shift in believer's thoughts. English isn't my mother tongue, maybe it was a wrong choice of words on my part.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #25 - March 26, 2009, 02:50 PM

    I am still unsure how practical wholesale eradication can be brought about through non-violent means?  Other dead faiths primarlily were brought about by a slow shift in believers thoughts, wholesale eradication implies something more sudden and severe?


    Actually I didn't want to imply anything sudden & severe, if my words have given you that impression, that surely was not my intention-I did & do mean a shift in believer's thoughts. English isn't my mother tongue, maybe it was a wrong choice of words on my part.


    Your English is excellent and makes me embarrassed at my crappy grasp of Spanish. Anyhow, technically speaking, the word was used correctly, however, in common English usage it normally does imply something sudden and severe-- the original meaning of the word is to pull out by the roots.

    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #26 - March 26, 2009, 03:26 PM

    I am still unsure how practical wholesale eradication can be brought about through non-violent means?  Other dead faiths primarlily were brought about by a slow shift in believers thoughts, wholesale eradication implies something more sudden and severe?


    Actually I didn't want to imply anything sudden & severe, if my words have given you that impression, that surely was not my intention-I did & do mean a shift in believer's thoughts. English isn't my mother tongue, maybe it was a wrong choice of words on my part.

    I think "dissolution" or "collapse" is a better word choice.

    I have to admit that the methodology in my mind isn't exactly "a slow shift in the thoughts of believers." I am thinking of something more in line with the suppression of Catholicism during the French Revolution. And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence. Many Islamic states practice one kind of state terrorism or another, so I do not see any injustice in fighting a reactionary and violent Shariah with counter-violence, provided that it is carried out for the right purpose, in concert with correct propaganda, and without excess.

    PMOI, for example.

    http://www.english.mojahedin.org/pagesEn/index.aspx

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #27 - March 26, 2009, 04:01 PM

    I am still unsure how practical wholesale eradication can be brought about through non-violent means?  Other dead faiths primarlily were brought about by a slow shift in believers thoughts, wholesale eradication implies something more sudden and severe?


    Actually I didn't want to imply anything sudden & severe, if my words have given you that impression, that surely was not my intention-I did & do mean a shift in believer's thoughts. English isn't my mother tongue, maybe it was a wrong choice of words on my part.

    I think "dissolution" or "collapse" is a better word choice.

    I have to admit that the methodology in my mind isn't exactly "a slow shift in the thoughts of believers." I am thinking of something more in line with the suppression of Catholicism during the French Revolution. And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence. Many Islamic states practice one kind of state terrorism or another, so I do not see any injustice in fighting a reactionary and violent Shariah with counter-violence, provided that it is carried out for the right purpose, in concert with correct propaganda, and without excess.


    Well, the French Revolution was not done "without excess", nor was Hoxha's repression of Islam (and Christianity)-- suppressing religions normally does require "excess", and I can't think of too many examples where extremely violent and repressive measures were not used. Your country wasn't so bad on that, nor was the USSR. Arguably Algeria hasn't been so bad on that either (although they were never 100% secular, either). But even those countries have used some heavy-handed measures that many in the West would consider unacceptable, and there are plenty more examples of countries really going over the top, in the most violent and authoritarian way, in their quest to suppress religion.

    Generally, I don't disagree with you-- for example I have a lot of respect for the PDPA (R.I.P.), and like you, although I'm against the Ba'ath Party, if it was a choice between them and the Islamists, it's a no-brainer for me, but we're not talking about just one country here or even just one institution (like the Catholic Church), we'd be talking about suppressing a faith practiced by over a billion people by most estimates and practiced all over the globe. Stopping Islam through force would require the killing and repression of millions.

    Here's the other bit-- I definitely know where you're coming from on this, because I used to feel the same way about Christianity and religion in general, but now, not only do I think it won't work, it seems clear that whenever you have a government or organization willing to violently suppress an entire religion, that won't be the only dissent that gets suppressed. What do you think will happen to the people that protest the jailing of clerics? They'll get jailed too, and anyone who protests their jailing will wind up in the can as well. Once a government or group goes down that path, it's really easy for them to justify just about any means to the end.

    Quote


    First off, thanks for linking me to an organization designated as a foreign terrorist group by the US State Department and moving me up a little higher on the watch list. Smiley

    Second, PMOI is still a Muslim group, they are just more secular than Iran's government (which isn't that hard to do).

    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #28 - March 26, 2009, 10:31 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Well, the French Revolution was not done "without excess", nor was Hoxha's repression of Islam (and Christianity)-- suppressing religions normally does require "excess", and I can't think of too many examples where extremely violent and repressive measures were not used. Your country wasn't so bad on that, nor was the USSR. Arguably Algeria hasn't been so bad on that either (although they were never 100% secular, either). But even those countries have used some heavy-handed measures that many in the West would consider unacceptable, and there are plenty more examples of countries really going over the top, in the most violent and authoritarian way, in their quest to suppress religion.

    Welcome to the brutal reality of Islam, an oppressive cult which already indulges in a good deal of "excess."

    Whether suppressing Islam through illiberal practices will appease the notions of an open society is irrelevant. Suppressing Islam through illiberal practices can still be much more humane than doing nothing against the tyranny of Islam. Also, Christianity and Islam today are worlds apart, I can understand that you are trying to equate the two in order to validate your own criticism/rejection of Christianity --but I see and perceive Christians from a completely different perspective, namely that of Oriental Christians, who are minority groups in the Islamic landscape. As such, I do not feel the same anger towards Christianity.

    Where are these plenty more examples of countries "really going over the top" to suppress Islam, please? It usually works the other way around: Muslim autocrats "really go over the top" to suppress infidels, free thought, and free speech.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Second, PMOI is still a Muslim group, they are just more secular than Iran's government (which isn't that hard to do).

    This is the way of social progress, and PMOI is more complicated than you think. Despite all their shortcomings, PMOI actually work against the Islamic Republic, unlike most ordinary Iranians who complain about the evils of the IR but do nothing about it.

    Alavis in Turkey mostly identify with Islam, but I still support them. This is not because I appreciate any brand of Islam, but because Alavis are valuable allies. You cannot create secularism out of nothing. Weakening and crippling Islam as much as possible is my priority. This means that given the right circumstances Islam must be supressed, but if the conditions are not right, playing the opposition and halting the advance of Islam is what must be done.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #29 - March 27, 2009, 05:52 PM

    Suppressing Islam through illiberal practices can still be much more humane than doing nothing against the tyranny of Islam.


    Can be, on a national scale. Democratic Republic of Afghanistan is a good example, and I think I've already stated that. But what I'm saying is I don't think it would be if applied on a wider scale.

    Quote
    Also, Christianity and Islam today are worlds apart,


    Never denied that.

    Quote
    I can understand that you are trying to equate the two in order to validate your own criticism/rejection of Christianity


    No, sir, I don't think so-- it was you who brought up the example of suppression of the Catholic Church in the French Revolution. I did not bring Christianity into the debate, you did.

    Quote
    --but I see and perceive Christians from a completely different perspective, namely that of Oriental Christians, who are minority groups in the Islamic landscape. As such, I do not feel the same anger towards Christianity.


    Of course, just as my perspective is from living in a country where Muslims are the minority, for the most part don't cause any problems, but are the most maligned religious minority in the country.

    Quote
    Where are these plenty more examples of countries "really going over the top" to suppress Islam, please?


    I did not specify Islam, I said "religion". What sort of examples would you like?

    Quote
    It usually works the other way around: Muslim autocrats "really go over the top" to suppress infidels, free thought, and free speech.


    Yes, I think this was well-established long ago and agreed to by everyone on this board. You're beating a dead horse.

    Quote
    This is the way of social progress, and PMOI is more complicated than you think. Despite all their shortcomings, PMOI actually work against the Islamic Republic, unlike most ordinary Iranians who complain about the evils of the IR but do nothing about it.

    Alavis in Turkey mostly identify with Islam, but I still support them. This is not because I appreciate any brand of Islam, but because Alavis are valuable allies. You cannot create secularism out of nothing. Weakening and crippling Islam as much as possible is my priority. This means that given the right circumstances Islam must be supressed, but if the conditions are not right, playing the opposition and halting the advance of Islam is what must be done.


    Well, sir, I do not agree with much of what you say, but you are a true secular radical, and, believe it or not, I can respect that.

    fuck you
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