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 Topic: Is an islamic reformation under way ?

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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #30 - March 27, 2009, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 27, 2009, 05:52 PM
    Well, sir, I do not agree with much of what you say, but you are a true secular radical, and, believe it or not, I can respect that.

    Before you said that last line, you were well & truly on your way to becoming Zaephons nemesis  far away hug
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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #31 - March 28, 2009, 09:00 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
    And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence.


    I find this comment deeply disturbing, Zaephon and it has been on my mind since you made it.

    I have to say that if there was any attempt by my government to eradicate Islam through suppression - let alone "violent" suppression (which I would regard as suppression of Human Rights & Freedom) I would definitely be amongst those who would oppose it and defend the right of Muslims to practise their faith freely. Which means you would have to use this violence on me too.

    You once said that I was out of step with this forum, but I'm quite sure no ex-Muslim here would agree with you that violent suppression of Islam was acceptable. I think it is you that is seriously out of step with ex-Muslims on this forum.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #32 - March 28, 2009, 09:16 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2009, 09:00 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
    And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence.


    I find this comment deeply disturbing, Zaephon and it has been on my mind since you made it.

    I have to say that if there was any attempt by my government to eradicate Islam through suppression - let alone "violent" suppression (which I would regard as suppression of Human Rights & Freedom) I would definitely be amongst those who would oppose it and defend the right of Muslims to practise their faith freely. Which means you would have to use this violence on me too.

    You once said that I was out of step with this forum, but I'm quite sure no ex-Muslim here would agree with you that violent suppression of Islam was acceptable. I think it is you that is seriously out of step with ex-Muslims on this forum.

    +1
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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #33 - March 28, 2009, 09:19 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2009, 09:00 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
    And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence.


    I find this comment deeply disturbing, Zaephon and it has been on my mind since you made it.

    I have to say that if there was any attempt by my government to eradicate Islam through suppression - let alone "violent" suppression (which I would regard as suppression of Human Rights & Freedom) I would definitely be amongst those who would oppose it and defend the right of Muslims to practise their faith freely. Which means you would have to use this violence on me too.

    You once said that I was out of step with this forum, but I'm quite sure no ex-Muslim here would agree with you that violent suppression of Islam was acceptable. I think it is you that is seriously out of step with ex-Muslims on this forum.


    What about declassifying Islam as a religion in the UK, therefore not allowing Muslim charities to operate (considering they either support terror or only have activities for Muslims) and not allowing any more Mosques to open and not having to have all these special department/governmental advisors on the topic of Islam. Also, there would not be the need to have to teach Islam at school anymore.

    Would such an act be an act of repression? If Scientology isn't accepted as a religion, why should Islam be? People can still believe in it, but it's just a belief shared by some rather than a legitimate religion.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #34 - March 28, 2009, 09:27 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    I find this comment deeply disturbing, Zaephon and it has been on my mind since you made it.

    I know all about your position, Hassan. No need to remind it, I do not have a poor memory. I am rather tired of discussing the same things with you, do you feel the need to constantly affirm your ideas?

    You say "my government." I gave the example of the French Revolution, where Catholicism was suppressed by people of Catholic or at best, Protestant background. I said before the Muslim population of the UK and indeed the whole Muslim population of the West are rather irrelevant in the struggle against Islam. 

    Since we have been through this before, why discuss it again?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #35 - March 28, 2009, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 28, 2009, 09:19 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2009, 09:00 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
    And I definitely do not rule out the option of violence.


    I find this comment deeply disturbing, Zaephon and it has been on my mind since you made it.

    I have to say that if there was any attempt by my government to eradicate Islam through suppression - let alone "violent" suppression (which I would regard as suppression of Human Rights & Freedom) I would definitely be amongst those who would oppose it and defend the right of Muslims to practise their faith freely. Which means you would have to use this violence on me too.

    You once said that I was out of step with this forum, but I'm quite sure no ex-Muslim here would agree with you that violent suppression of Islam was acceptable. I think it is you that is seriously out of step with ex-Muslims on this forum.


    What about declassifying Islam as a religion in the UK, therefore not allowing Muslim charities to operate (considering they either support terror or only have activities for Muslims) and not allowing any more Mosques to open and not having to have all these special department/governmental advisors on the topic of Islam. Also, there would not be the need to have to teach Islam at school anymore.

    Would such an act be an act of repression? If Scientology isn't accepted as a religion, why should Islam be? People can still believe in it, but it's just a belief shared by some rather than a legitimate religion.


    1. From a secular standpoint, there is no such thing as a "legitimate religion"-- it would either be all legit or all illegit.

    2. If you allow this, then you grant the government power to declassify any unpopular faith as a religion and suppress it. The government should not have this power, or at least, I would not want my government to have such power. I think my government already has way too much power, and there is no way in hell I would ever want to grant it power to determine which religions are "legitimate" and which aren't. Of course, we don't have an official church here either. For myself, I'd just assume work on repealing the repressive laws and regulations we have now, rather than creating new ones. And I'm pretty sure if I lived in the UK that would still be my opinion.
    fuck you
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #36 - March 28, 2009, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man
    1. From a secular standpoint, there is no such thing as a "legitimate religion"-- it would either be all legit or all illegit.

    +1  Afro
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #37 - March 28, 2009, 06:24 PM
    I would like to know what those of you who support reform of Islam think are the possible philosophical and theological bases of reform.

    Religions like Islam and Christianity are bound up with political power. For much of their history they were enforced on populations who had no real choice but to appear to go along with the required beleifs.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of what drove the Christian Reformation was jockeying for political power. If you look at many of the Islamic states today, it's mainly about power. And perhaps all religions since time immemorial have been tied up in supporting various power structures.

    But Christianity had one very valuable resource that since the Reformation has been exploited and magnified and that is where the bible reports Jesus as saying, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's". This has been built on to allow the gradual development of a secular society: one that allows people as private individuals to follow their religion of choice, while organising society as a whole without regard to religion. And in the end, it is this that has led to the slow decline of Christianity in the West.

    But Islam seems totally different in this respect. Where is the equivalent idea to "Render unto Caesar"? Is there any foundation on which it is possible to build a separation of mosque and state? Is it possible for believers to reject the whole idea of Shariah?

    I think that to have a meaningful reform of Islam, there has to be some sort of acceptance of secualrism and personal autonomy, but where would it come from?
    Free speech is the source of most other freedoms
  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #38 - March 28, 2009, 06:59 PM
    It will come from an educated approach to religion but will have to come from Muslims themselves.  Cultural relativists like Marleya & Sparky are the answer, those that see religion somewhat like folklore.  They accept this is a different day & time and have a different approach despite its inherent insincerity.  Its possible to claim to be a Muslim, and take this line (as shown by Islamic countries in Europe & Africa).

    This is bound to happen though - either from a backlash from escalated terrorism or from further development in their societies.  Religious devotion is more fickle than you might think (just look at all of us!) , it will just take time.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #39 - March 28, 2009, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 25, 2009, 08:00 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 25, 2009, 06:42 PM
    Wholesale eradication need not mean anything violent or murderous, history is full of dead faiths,


    History is also full of brutal men who took the well-meaning words or scholarly writings of another and turned it into a manifesto for killing.

    I'm quite sure that you, Zaephon and all the other well-intentioned and well-meaning ppl here don't mean violence.

    But you can be sure others will.

    And that is exactly where it will end.

    Actually I agree with you about the well-intentioned and well-meaning ppl being used by brutal men. But I do not think this is where it will end. I think this is where it is right now. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you fear that the West might become an intolerant place where people could lose the right to believe in what they want. Where their person and property are no longer absolutely sacrosanct. Where only certain people can get voted for and only others can be permitted certain positions in companies. To you this is a nightmare scenario. Something where "This might end".

    But to the rest of the world, this is where a large portion of the world currently is. This is where 100% of the 56 islamic nations in particular are. Right now. Right this moment. And they are in the business of exporting this hate. And it really sucks. It sucks because the brutal men, do not need that both sides be restrained. The brutal men only require One side to act like idiots.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #40 - September 17, 2014, 03:44 PM
    https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/512263022396866560

    Quote
    Preachy atheists insisting I support banning/censoring the Quran,u have zero idea what reform Muslims are up against.Enjoy your ivory towers

  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #41 - September 17, 2014, 05:12 PM
    I thought it was agreed authentic translations would be excellent - note translations - because there are many korans!
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #42 - September 17, 2014, 05:50 PM
    https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/512294380758392832

  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #43 - September 18, 2014, 03:38 PM
    For there to be a reform in islam it requires the amount funding that has gone into spreading wahhabism/salafism that petrol money has enabled Saudi to do. Around 90 billion has been spent building salafi/wahhabi mosques around the world, paying the salaries of their imams and funding for other resources ie staellite channels, youtube videos, dvds, cds etc.

    The problem is who has 90 billion to spare?

    I'm also not comfortable with Maajid Nawaz heading the reform project. Firstly he tries to flog his book at every opportunity and how sincere are you if you are promoting your private commercial venture every chance you get ? Secondly he has no academic credentials in islam or religious studies, neither does anyone at Quilliam. They got Usama but he was only a part time imam and not a scholar or Sheikh despite some embellishments that have recently been spouted about him. You would think with all the funding they get they would get someone who at least has undergraduate qualifications in Islam.

    Another problem with Quilliam is that they are very visible in non-muslim mostly white academic circles an exercise that doesn't really have much point as these are not the people who need to be reformed, but muslims who hold non-violent extremist views(which the majority of muslims in the uk do). To reform muslims you need to have a platform in mosques where you can get your message across to large audience of muslims and at the moment I don't see nobody from quilliam giving Juma khutbas to large swaths of muslims every friday. Wearing a suit in univesity sitting on a stage with some other semi-celebrity academic is not as effective as direct liaison with muslims and challenging them.
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #44 - September 18, 2014, 04:52 PM
    Yup, agreed serpentofeden.
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #45 - September 18, 2014, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on September 17, 2014, 05:50 PM
    https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/512294380758392832

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I will sum it up. We reinterpret the text due to post hoc rationalization due to scientific breakthroughs. 10+10= a number. Math shows that the answer is 10. We change "a number" for 10, ta dah!
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #46 - September 18, 2014, 08:42 PM
    If Mo ever comes back, do you guys think - he'll regret what he had done?
    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #47 - September 18, 2014, 08:48 PM
    Vast majority of Muslims don't speak Arabic, and they've no idea what is written in the Quran. - But what will happen - when English (as it is already an lingua franca of the world) makes more inroads into South Asia, South East Asia - and Mulsims come across English transalation? Would they be repulsed by what they see (like from Pickthall transalation) or they'd be deceived again by the likes of Zakir Naik - who reek of blatant intellectual dishonesty?

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #48 - September 18, 2014, 09:09 PM
    Depends how well educated; not trained they are ar-razi.
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #49 - September 19, 2014, 02:53 AM
    There is far more apologist literature than there is critical literature on Islam in the English language. I think the apologist stuff drowns out the critical. You absolutely have to get your Arabic religious basics down to make any headway towards the truth, is my opinion.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Is an islamic reformation under way ?
     Reply #50 - September 19, 2014, 08:11 AM
    This "extermination of Islam" is neither realistic nor politically correct. As any community is wont to do - pushed to the brink by unrelenting againist-campaign, Muslims will start to assert their identity even more. We've seen this in India, every time there are communal surcharged atmosphere, Muslim right comes into the picture and starts convincing Muslims that the only they can save themselves is by practicing more Islam. And it'd push the liberal opinion amongst the community further to the corner.

    I don't think Islam is going to go away. Central Asian, South Asian and Indonesian flavours which are firmly rooted in their pre-Islamic syncretic traditions are going to survive. And honestly, they're the most benign faces of Islam.

    World just needs to figure out how to stop the meanace Wahhabi menace. Generations of humanity will be indebted to that person.

    May be someone needs to figure out, how to produce energy without burning fossil fuels. And it's going to stop the funding of Wahabism through petro-dollars.

    "Who really knows?
    Who will here proclaim it?
    Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
    The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
    Who then knows whence it has arisen?"- Rig Veda, 10:129-6
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