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 Topic: BMZ and Skynightblaze

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  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #60 - April 01, 2009, 06:40 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob

    I don't see a contradiction here:
    Muslims read the Quran in the order it was compiled (not the order dictated to Mohammed pbuh). And the Quran does not talk about it's own compilation.

    BSmileyB




    Hey Submissive Bob,

    It was obvious from BMZ?s Opening Posts that he would not accept anything other than Quran as authentic. He rejects Hadiths and Tafasir as unreliable so not be used in the debate. The same BMZ is talking about compilation of Quran in order. Since he would not accept any sources save for Quran, he has to prove the way Quran been compiled given that he talked of its compilation.

    True, he did not explicitly stated Quran talks of compilation but which source he would use to prove the way Quran been compiled? He claimed Muslims read Quran in a particular order of compilation. Didn?t he?


    Regds
    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #61 - April 01, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on April 01, 2009, 06:39 PM
    I have to say this, the word arsh (arş in Turkish) sounds exactly like the German word Arsch, which means ass. Cheesy


    Yes, it also sounds similar to the English word arse, which means arse.  How appropriate.   Cheesy

    SNB has proved his point on this one, time to move on IMO.  I don't see the point in asking him to prove that people wouldn't be able to see angels stood around the edges of the known universe, that should be self-evident. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #62 - April 01, 2009, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Looks like Skynightblaze hit BMZ with a full blown uppercut right under the chin - he wasnt expecting that.  BMZ is crouched in the corner, looking at the stars and the referees counting... 1 Ah 2 Ah 3 Ah ...


    I have to disagree, with you and others who have said that Skynightblaze won that round.  I would declare it a draw so far because neither poster has clearly established their case.  I think most of you are being a bit biased because you want the muslim poster to lose.  As a muslim, I could be equally biased the other way around, but I will be objective instead and say that it is still case unproven.

    I do agree that it was a poor choice of subject though.  Reading the Quran is not supposed to be an excerise in linguistics, and that is what this subject has reduced it too.  The same thing happened when Cheetah debated Shaneequa on Noah's Ark.  Cheetah was quibbling about the details of how and why it happened instead of challenging whether it did happen.  If Skynightblaze wants to challenge the truth of the Quran, he should drop trivialities like interpretations of the word kursee, and move on to debating whether it was revealed by Allah (swt) or written by people.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #63 - April 01, 2009, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:18 PM
    I do agree that it was a poor choice of subject though.  Reading the Quran is not supposed to be an excerise in linguistics, and that is what this subject has reduced it too.


    Says a gay Muslim who has to perform linguistic acrobatics to make the story of Lut not seem anti-gay. Cheesy

    Welcome back by the way. We sure have been missing you. Smiley
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #64 - April 01, 2009, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Looks like Skynightblaze hit BMZ with a full blown uppercut right under the chin - he wasnt expecting that.  BMZ is crouched in the corner, looking at the stars and the referees counting... 1 Ah 2 Ah 3 Ah ...


    I have to disagree, with you and others who have said that Skynightblaze won that round.  I would declare it a draw so far because neither poster has clearly established their case.  I think most of you are being a bit biased because you want the muslim poster to lose.  As a muslim, I could be equally biased the other way around, but I will be objective instead and say that it is still case unproven.


    You claim I am biased?  The FFI contingent here might be, but that may be down to the type of people they are and as as a result of an ongoing feud. 

    However did you see my  previous posts in this section where i claimed BMZ had won this argument and furthermore bias should not be shown?  Before you retort I suggest you reread my posts here, and then as a gesture you may wish to retract your comments. 
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #65 - April 01, 2009, 10:48 PM
    Hello Aziz

    Yeah, ok, I get the irony.  Smiley  I know my stance is not exactly widely accepted either.  I just think that if the underlying concept is truthful, then the rest is just details.  And I would like to see a debate that follows that line rather than this one. 

    Thank you for the welcome back, I've been missing this place too.  I have Internet at home now so I can post more. 
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #66 - April 01, 2009, 10:52 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Looks like Skynightblaze hit BMZ with a full blown uppercut right under the chin - he wasnt expecting that.  BMZ is crouched in the corner, looking at the stars and the referees counting... 1 Ah 2 Ah 3 Ah ...


    I have to disagree, with you and others who have said that Skynightblaze won that round.  I would declare it a draw so far because neither poster has clearly established their case.  I think most of you are being a bit biased because you want the muslim poster to lose.  As a muslim, I could be equally biased the other way around, but I will be objective instead and say that it is still case unproven.


    You claim I am biased?  The FFI contingent here might be, but that may be down to the type of people they are and as as a result of an ongoing feud. 

    However did you see my  previous posts in this section where i claimed BMZ had won this argument and furthermore bias should not be shown?  Before you retort I suggest you reread my posts here, and then as a gesture you may wish to retract your comments. 


    My post was a response to the post of yours I quoted, and to posts by other people in a similar vein.  I did not mean to allege that you were biased all along, sorry if it came out that way.

    I just disagree with your final comment on this part of the debate, and I think bias on your part is the reason why we disagree.  If you were bias free I doubt you would declare a winner, neither of them has been very impressive yet.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #67 - April 01, 2009, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:48 PM
    Hello Aziz

    Yeah, ok, I get the irony.  Smiley  I know my stance is not exactly widely accepted either.  I just think that if the underlying concept is truthful, then the rest is just details.  And I would like to see a debate that follows that line rather than this one. 

    Thank you for the welcome back, I've been missing this place too.  I have Internet at home now so I can post more. 

    So how do you go about finding out if the underlying concept is truthful?  I assume you are a wavering Muslim, if not how did you go about proving that it was written by God and not man?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #68 - April 01, 2009, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:52 PM
    I just disagree with your final comment on this part of the debate, and I think bias on your part is the reason why we disagree.  If you were bias free I doubt you would declare a winner, neither of them has been very impressive yet.

    So if I am biased towards Skyblaze because I allegedly "declared him the winner" (which I didnt but thats another argument) then I am biased towards BMZ because I did the same before with him.  Doesnt that make me bias free?

    Or are you biased, that everyone here is biased?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #69 - April 01, 2009, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:48 PM
    Hello Aziz

    Yeah, ok, I get the irony.  Smiley  I know my stance is not exactly widely accepted either.  I just think that if the underlying concept is truthful, then the rest is just details.  And I would like to see a debate that follows that line rather than this one. 

    Thank you for the welcome back, I've been missing this place too.  I have Internet at home now so I can post more. 

    So how do you go about finding out if the underlying concept is truthful?  I assume you are a wavering Muslim, if not how did you go about proving that it was written by God and not man?


    Good question.  That should be the question Skynightblaze is asking instead of this obscure linguistic wrangle about thrones.  I cannot answer it fully without challenging you to a debate of my own, but I will try to answer it honestly and in brief.

    If the Quran was written by a person or people in the seventh century, it would only contain knowledge those people had access to.  if it was revealed to those people by the creator of the world they lived in, it would contain knowledge they had no access to. And if that was the case then there are parts of it which would not be fully understood for years, even by people who had studied it in great detail.  Of course, there are people who have interpreted it through the lens of their own limited knowledge, and unfortunately their views have become authoritative through tradition.  But that should not blind you to the fact that as human understanding of the world has increased, parts of the Quran which were once a mystery can now be interpreted as scientifically accurate.

    Parts are still a mystery at the moment, but history tells us that will change as our knowledge increases.  Smiley

  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #70 - April 01, 2009, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 01, 2009, 05:41 PM

    Arsh is tangible (chair)
    Arshahu is intangible (domain)

    That is what I understood and I see no contradiction.

    ============

    BMZ claimed (chair) in 2:255 is intangible (power, dominion.....) tho chair is always tangible in Arabic and Quran (in other verse) as well as lexicons....(1st error).


    He also claims (arsh) is tangible, but ridiculously contradicts himself by claiming (arsh) ain't tangible when adding a pronoun; (2nd error)


    Ironically, the word (arsh) not (chair) could be intangible depending on the sentence.




    ETA: In his last reply, BMZ confirmed the arsh to be tangible 1, so this puts it to end, as Cheetah said, if (chair) is tangible according to Arabic 2,

    then from 1 and 2, BMZ is wrong, unless he can prove (chair) can actually mean power, knowledge...etc.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #71 - April 01, 2009, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:52 PM
    I just disagree with your final comment on this part of the debate, and I think bias on your part is the reason why we disagree.  If you were bias free I doubt you would declare a winner, neither of them has been very impressive yet.

    So if I am biased towards Skyblaze because I allegedly "declared him the winner" (which I didnt but thats another argument) then I am biased towards BMZ because I did the same before with him.  Doesnt that make me bias free?

    Or are you biased, that everyone here is biased?


    I am not biased at all, Islame would you please calm yourself?  I was responding to a specific post of yours, and I did not intend to comment on your general attitude throughout the thread.  You seem to have declared a knockout for one poster in the debate, as far as I can see it is still very undecided.  The underlying bias against the muslim being right is the only guess I can make for the difference of opinion.  I am not claiming to know, I cannot read your mind!
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #72 - April 01, 2009, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 11:13 PM
    The underlying bias against the muslim being right is the only guess I can make for the difference of opinion.  I am not claiming to know, I cannot read your mind!

    I did not ask you to read my mind, just to read my previous posts in this thread. 

    If you were being unbiased with your opinion, you would have retracted that comment about me.  But still have not..

    So who's biased?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #73 - April 01, 2009, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 11:13 PM
    The underlying bias against the muslim being right is the only guess I can make for the difference of opinion.  I am not claiming to know, I cannot read your mind!

    I did not ask you to read my mind, just to read my previous posts in this thread. 

    If you were being unbiased with your opinion, you would have retracted that comment about me.  But still have not..

    So who's biased?


    I commented on one specific post of yours, and stated that that post, and only that post showed bias.  That's all.  I already clarified that and apologised if any contrary impression was given. 
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #74 - April 01, 2009, 11:49 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on March 31, 2009, 03:00 PM
    Thus every Muslim is taught and knows well, that it is not a throne that the verse is talking about.

    ===========

    Not always true, to know what the majority of Muslims believe about that, read the following:

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9566



    So Muslims are taught (Alla's Kursi) is his footstool (throne is larger), and some scholars think it is the throne, others go with BMZ's theory..
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #75 - April 02, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: BMZ on April 01, 2009, 02:48 PM
    If Arsh is written as Arshahu, literally meaning His Throne, in a specific verse, it would mean exactly as Kurseeyehee, i.e., power, reach, dominion, government or control, etc., as I explained in my first response to your debate post.

    ============

    If we look in Quran for a verse which contains arsh + a pronoun, we find:

    [41] He said: "Transform her throne out of all recognition by her: let us see whether she is guided (to the truth) or is one of those who receive no guidance."

    [42] So when she arrived, she was asked, "Is this thy throne?" She said, "It was just like this; and knowledge was bestowed on us in advance of this, and we have submitted to Allah (in Islam)."

    قَالَ نَكِّرُوا لَهَا عَرْشَهَا نَنْظُرْ أَتَهْتَدِي أَمْ تَكُونُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَهْتَدُونَ


    فَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ قِيلَ أَهَكَذَا عَرْشُكِ قَالَتْ كَأَنَّهُ هُوَ وَأُوتِينَا الْعِلْمَ مِنْ قَبْلِهَا وَكُنَّا مُسْلِمِينَ

    Do you all agree w\ me that (throne) in both verses can never be something intangible like power, control, or dominion...etc?
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #76 - April 02, 2009, 01:34 AM
    "Do you all agree w\ me that (throne) in both verses can never be something intangible like power, control, or dominion...etc?"

    If Muslims who come to this forum and read your question agree with you, does that mean that Muslims will stop exploding and beheading and honor killing and raping unhijabbed girls and enslaving people all over the world? 
    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #77 - April 02, 2009, 01:41 AM
    Quote from: Hesperado on April 02, 2009, 01:34 AM
    "Do you all agree w\ me that (throne) in both verses can never be something intangible like power, control, or dominion...etc?"

    If Muslims who come to this forum and read your question agree with you, does that mean that Muslims will stop exploding and beheading and honor killing and raping unhijabbed girls and enslaving people all over the world? 

    ===========

    Answer my question 1st...!


    Ahhh, I never thought that Muslims who come to this forum do behead, explode, rape...etc, I gotta be careful... grin12
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #78 - April 02, 2009, 01:49 AM
    I didn't see any hits so far that were strong enough to deserve any points.
    I call round one a draw.

    Bgrin12B
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #79 - April 02, 2009, 02:58 AM
    Quote from: Hesperado on April 02, 2009, 01:34 AM
    "Do you all agree w\ me that (throne) in both verses can never be something intangible like power, control, or dominion...etc?"

    If Muslims who come to this forum and read your question agree with you, does that mean that Muslims will stop exploding and beheading and honor killing and raping unhijabbed girls and enslaving people all over the world? 

    Hesperado, I think we've already realized that truly violent and fanatical people are not going to be swayed by rational discussion. Complaining is also not going to affect them. Debate is done for the benefit of the uncommitted whose opinion is still open.
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #80 - April 02, 2009, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 02, 2009, 01:49 AM
    I didn't see any hits so far that were strong enough to deserve any points.
    I call round one a draw.

    Bgrin12B


    BMZ hasn't given a single good reason for Arsh to be taken figuratively in one verse and literally in others. Moreover, he has contradicted himself grandly betraying his confusion on the issue.

    I cannot imagine what you mean by hits. This bout clearly goes in favor of skynightblaze. But, of course, you have every right to hold your own opinions.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #81 - April 02, 2009, 08:18 AM
    Quote from: Hesperado on April 02, 2009, 01:34 AM
    "Do you all agree w\ me that (throne) in both verses can never be something intangible like power, control, or dominion...etc?"

    If Muslims who come to this forum and read your question agree with you, does that mean that Muslims will stop exploding and beheading and honor killing and raping unhijabbed girls and enslaving people all over the world? 


    And this is why we make it one on one debates here lol to stop posters like you jumping in and making stupid comments like this.  Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #82 - April 02, 2009, 08:41 AM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 01, 2009, 10:55 PM

    So how do you go about finding out if the underlying concept is truthful?  I assume you are a wavering Muslim, if not how did you go about proving that it was written by God and not man?


    Good question.  That should be the question Skynightblaze is asking instead of this obscure linguistic wrangle about thrones.  I cannot answer it fully without challenging you to a debate of my own, but I will try to answer it honestly and in brief.

    If the Quran was written by a person or people in the seventh century, it would only contain knowledge those people had access to.  if it was revealed to those people by the creator of the world they lived in, it would contain knowledge they had no access to. And if that was the case then there are parts of it which would not be fully understood for years, even by people who had studied it in great detail.  Of course, there are people who have interpreted it through the lens of their own limited knowledge, and unfortunately their views have become authoritative through tradition.  But that should not blind you to the fact that as human understanding of the world has increased, parts of the Quran which were once a mystery can now be interpreted as scientifically accurate.

    Parts are still a mystery at the moment, but history tells us that will change as our knowledge increases.  Smiley




    I am glad you see it this way, as opposed to automatically assuming it is correct and is therefore the truth.  This is the way I assessed it, along with others here, and am pleased to hear you did it this way to.

    However you appear to cover both bases by saying if the Quran is right, it is written by God, and if it is wrong then it is still written by God but our understanding is limited.  In effect you are no different and automatically assuming it is correct - so what is your foundation behind this assumption?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #83 - April 02, 2009, 10:41 AM
    Welcome back Goldie Smiley


    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 10:18 PM

    I have to disagree, with you and others who have said that Skynightblaze won that round.  I would declare it a draw so far because neither poster has clearly established their case.  I think most of you are being a bit biased because you want the muslim poster to lose.  As a muslim, I could be equally biased the other way around, but I will be objective instead and say that it is still case unproven.

    I do agree that it was a poor choice of subject though.  Reading the Quran is not supposed to be an excerise in linguistics, and that is what this subject has reduced it too.  The same thing happened when Cheetah debated Shaneequa on Noah's Ark.  Cheetah was quibbling about the details of how and why it happened instead of challenging whether it did happen.  If Skynightblaze wants to challenge the truth of the Quran, he should drop trivialities like interpretations of the word kursee, and move on to debating whether it was revealed by Allah (swt) or written by people.

  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #84 - April 02, 2009, 11:01 AM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 11:08 PM
    If the Quran was written by a person or people in the seventh century, it would only contain knowledge those people had access to.  if it was revealed to those people by the creator of the world they lived in, it would contain knowledge they had no access to. And if that was the case then there are parts of it which would not be fully understood for years, even by people who had studied it in great detail.


    Goldie, can you provide 1 or 2 examples of knowledge that the Qur'an provided that could have existed at that time but was later understand by man?

    Quote
    Of course, there are people who have interpreted it through the lens of their own limited knowledge, and unfortunately their views have become authoritative through tradition.


    Why would God reveal knowledge that He 'should' know would be incorrectly interpreted, yet not explain it thoroughly? If a scientist discovers something you would expect them to explain it as comprehensively as humanly possible so that further advancements can be made and also so that the idea will not be distorted at the whims and fancies of other scholars.

    I'd expect God to be more careful.

    Quote
    But that should not blind you to the fact that as human understanding of the world has increased, parts of the Quran which were once a mystery can now be interpreted as scientifically accurate.


    Which mysteries are you talking about that we now understand?

    Actually as we don't want to cloud this thread with a different topic I'd be glad to take this to another thread.

    Cheers
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #85 - April 02, 2009, 11:04 AM
    Quote from: Goldie on April 01, 2009, 11:08 PM
    Good question.  That should be the question Skynightblaze is asking instead of this obscure linguistic wrangle about thrones.  I cannot answer it fully without challenging you to a debate of my own, but I will try to answer it honestly and in brief.

    If the Quran was written by a person or people in the seventh century, it would only contain knowledge those people had access to.  if it was revealed to those people by the creator of the world they lived in, it would contain knowledge they had no access to. And if that was the case then there are parts of it which would not be fully understood for years, even by people who had studied it in great detail.  Of course, there are people who have interpreted it through the lens of their own limited knowledge, and unfortunately their views have become authoritative through tradition.  But that should not blind you to the fact that as human understanding of the world has increased, parts of the Quran which were once a mystery can now be interpreted as scientifically accurate.

    Parts are still a mystery at the moment, but history tells us that will change as our knowledge increases.  Smiley


    And certain glaring scientific inaccuracies in the Quran & Hadiths become equally apparent. For instance-the danger of inbreeding for example marrying first cousins. The Catholic Church & majority of Hindus were aware of this danger of inbreeding which is why the Catholic Church & certain Hindu texts forbade marriage between seven generations of agnates & cognates. Unfortunately Allah didn't forbid this, which is why even Muhammad wed his daughter Fatima to his cousin Ali & Muslim immigrant in Britain suffer birth defects due to inbreeding.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578190/Minister-warns-of-inbreeding-risk-for-Muslims.html

    However, while Allah didn?t warn Muhammad about the dangers of inbreeding, Muhammad forbade marriages between men & women who had been breast fed by the same wet nurse! Also had they already wed, they had to divorce according to Muhammad?s views! What harm does being breast fed by the same woman cause? http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4767.msg121680#msg121680


    Next I point out what Prophet Muhammad thought of left handed people:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4611.0
    To be fair, the left hand was looked upon unfairly since ancient times in many cultures, although there?s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Prophet Muhammad subscribed to the popular superstition about the left hand as well! He claimed that Satan eats with his left hand!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #86 - April 02, 2009, 11:10 AM
    Next I want to post certain extremely funny Hadiths which is fine according to a 7th century tribal faith & its Prophet's limited knowledge, but seems highly absurd today!  Roll Eyes

    Here are some such Hadiths:

    Sahih Muslim Book 028, Number 5612:

    Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Allah?s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: He who played chess is like one who dyed his hand with the flesh and blood of swine.

    So the game of chess which actually sharpens your brain is like dyeing hands  blood, huh? Does this explain why Muslims are so outnumbered by Jews in the Noble Prizes? 

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said ?If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.?

    Another instance of "Islamic science"?

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366:

    Narrated Ibn ?Abbas:

    The Prophet said, ?When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else.?

    Someone else lick your hands?   But seriously, gross!!!


    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 636:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, ?The effect of an evil eye is a fact.? And he prohibited tattooing.

    Hear that all unsuperstitious folks! Prophet says evil eye is a fact, must be so!

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245:

    Narrated ?Abdullah :

    A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, ?Satan urinated in his ears.?

    Satan urinating in someone's ears' while he slept?IMO, the funniest! 

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 509:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, ?Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you (during the act of yawning) should say: ?Ha?, Satan will laugh at him.?

    Again, irrational & stupid words!

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, ?If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.?

    Listen folks! Just like one Santa gives all the world's kids' presents for Christmas, one Satan stays in all sleeping folks' noses all night!!!   Its true, Mo says so, must be so!


    Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

    Narrated ?Amr bin Maimun:

    During the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

    Hear that, all those who oppose stonings? Monkeys apparently stone for adultery too! 


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #87 - April 02, 2009, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Emerald on April 01, 2009, 11:49 PM
    Not always true, to know what the majority of Muslims believe about that, read the following:
    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9566
    So Muslims are taught (Alla's Kursi) is his footstool (throne is larger), and some scholars think it is the throne, others go with BMZ's theory..

    Loved the fatwa! It's hilarious to know that there are Muslims who think Allah has a little footstool and an enormous throne, which is located above the 7 heavens. As a Muslim I was aware of such ppl, I heard they thought Allah has real hands and feet and that he isn't literally everywhere, like in the toilet (obligatory astaghfirullah.) However, I didn't know that such understandings can be actually based on the Qur'an.

    Here are more verses that confirm the story of Allah being a sky-god.
    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    67:16: Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)?
    67:17: Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning?

    Then we have verses where Allah threatens to come down to earth.

    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    2:210: Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision).
    6:158: Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting."

    Do you think Allah is saying these things sarcastically? Think again:

    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    89:21: Nay! When the earth is pounded to powder,
    89:22: And thy Lord cometh, and His angels, rank upon rank,
    89:23: And Hell, that Day, is brought (face to face),- on that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance profit him?

    I think the Qur'an makes less sense when you assume that Allah is this transcendental deity that encompasses all of existence and is outside of time and space. I think that this concept of Allah didn't exist at Mhmd's time, and from what I've read so far I know that the tafasir and ahadith testify to this fact. Of course, an educated mind in this day and age can hardly believe this, therefore a lot of secondary scriptures have to be rejected and the Qur'an has to be interpreted in such a way that it fits the philosophy of an allencompassing deity.

    But look at the verses, how can you not think that Allah will literally come down with the angels on Judgment Day?
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #88 - April 02, 2009, 01:08 PM
    Quote
    BMZ hasn't given a single good reason for Arsh to be taken figuratively in one verse and literally in others. Moreover, he has contradicted himself grandly betraying his confusion on the issue.

    I cannot imagine what you mean by hits. This bout clearly goes in favor of skynightblaze. But, of course, you have every right to hold your own opinions


    The topic is Contradictions in the Quran. BMZ is on defence. It is Skynight's burden to clearly point out contradictions. So far he has not done so.

    It makes sense that "Throne" could be used metaphorically in one part of a book and literally in another. A throne itself is a mere man-made symbol pf power. And it's meaning, like crown could refer to the object or the power it symbolizes.

    A hit in this case would be pointing out an actual contradiction, where BMZ can not present a reasonable explanation for it.

    BSmileyB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #89 - April 02, 2009, 03:27 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 02, 2009, 01:08 PM
    Quote
    BMZ hasn't given a single good reason for Arsh to be taken figuratively in one verse and literally in others. Moreover, he has contradicted himself grandly betraying his confusion on the issue.

    I cannot imagine what you mean by hits. This bout clearly goes in favor of skynightblaze. But, of course, you have every right to hold your own opinions


    The topic is Contradictions in the Quran. BMZ is on defence. It is Skynight's burden to clearly point out contradictions. So far he has not done so.

    It makes sense that "Throne" could be used metaphorically in one part of a book and literally in another. A throne itself is a mere man-made symbol pf power. And it's meaning, like crown could refer to the object or the power it symbolizes.

    A hit in this case would be pointing out an actual contradiction, where BMZ can not present a reasonable explanation for it.

    BSmileyB

    If the angels are circumambulating the throne, the throne must be as literal as they are.

    How can angels cluster around a metaphor?
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
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