There is no need for me to understand how muslims read and understand quran.
Sure. I have no problem with that.
Its rather more important for me to understand the truth because what muslims believe and understand could be faulty and hence I am going to evaluate quran using my own logic.I would accept the muslim claim only if its logical but not otherwise.
For the first part, which I have emobldened in your quote, I am with you on that. For the next part, which I have left untouched, I would say you cannot because you are just relying on various translations of your choice, without even understanding a word of Arabic. You can try your logic but you will be corrected if your logic does not make sense. I am okay with the third part, which I have highlighted in blue.
You have already been given explanation in response to your first post, which you have not been able to refute or deny.
Since you have brought the issue of compilation of quran I would like to know where it is said in Quran it has been compiled in the present order and by whom. Allah did not explicate such things in Quran, let alone specified the numbers of chapters or verses.
I never said that Qur'aan talks about compilation and the order, etc. Did I? If I did, please show me where did I say so?
Next, to understand of a certain topic in Quran a critic has to jump to various parts of quran because of the poorly edited nature of your book.
I would not mind if you keep jumping. The point was that we, the Muslims do not jump. You can keep jumping and I will explain.
For example, if Allah's throne? Arsh? in Arabic was mentioned in a single place in Quran, I would not have gone to many places when discussing of it. Unfortunately for you Muslim, your book is not styled in that mode. We see verses scattered all over the places in it. IF I am going for an in-depth study of the throne of Allah, I can not stop at a verse since there are more verses in more places of Quran. I will certainly jump on them because all of those have one in common. That is Allah's throne.
Sorry for some minor edit in your above quote. I am not discussing the style of the book. As I see, you have not even done an in-depth study of Qur'aan. You may carry on with your in-depth study of Arsh.
You need to study the entire quran to understand a particular topic for e.g to know of Jesus, you can not rely on some verses of a particular Surah as Jesus has been mentioned in many places in Quran. Sometimes in the first chapters sometimes in the middle or even last small chapters containing Jesus and his disciples . So, do not bring such silly arguments again without knowing what this debate is about.
No! There are only a few Surahs, where Jesus is mentioned. Naturally when a Surah was recited about his mother, his name would spring up. Likewise mentioning that he was not the son of God, his name sprang up in that topic. Where his case was discussed, his name again sprang up to show that he was not killed.
All right let me remind your own words there is no exact translation of the quran. If that is the case then I have every right to raise objections against the translations that you brought. Since ARabic Is not my domain . I will use logic to prove that these translators made an error. All I have to do is quote various verses from quran and put them here and see whether knowledge./power/dominance fit logically in these verses.
Go ahead. I am here to help you and correct you when necessary.
23:86
Say: Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous Throne?
In the above verse Allah is supposedly prompting Muhammad to ask himself or to those surrounded him ? Who is the Lord of the Seven heavens AND the Lord of ?Arsh ? ( throne as translated by Picktal)
This is exactly where you need my help and I have to explain to make you understand, as you have not even been able to understand the verse but just quoted it. By quoting just a verse, you missed a lot. You could not make out what was going on there in the Surah 23 because you looked at one verse, made your own conclusion, without knowing and understanding what was the topic in that part of the Surah.
I have to elaborate a little here to educate you and it is imperative, since you do not appear to have understood at all. If you had, you would not have asked me, "In the above verse Allah is supposedly prompting Muhammad to ask himself or to those surrounded him ?"
You can see the word "Qul" meaning "Say or Tell them", "Qalu" meaning "They said", and "Qala" meaning "He said" in Arabic at many places in Qur'aan.
So, Muhammad is being told by Allah to tell people and then you have to see what is their response. You did not understand because you did not read the entire exchange which went on like this:
23:84
Say: "Unto whom belongs the earth and all that lives thereon?48 [Tell me this] if you happen to know [the answer]!" (23:85) [And] they will reply: "Unto God." Say: "Will you not, then, bethink yourselves [of Him]?"
23:86
Say: "Who is it that sustains the seven heavens and is enthroned in His awesome almightiness?"49 (23:87) [And] they will reply: "[All this power belongs] to God." Say: "Will you not, then, remain conscious of Him?"
23:88
Say: "In whose hand rests the mighty dominion over all things, and who is it that protects, the while there is no protection against Him? [Tell me this] if you happen to know [the answer]!" (23:89) [And] they will reply: "[All this power belongs) to God." Say: "How, then, can you be so deluded?"
If you had read above, you would have known in a jiffy that Allah told Muhammad to follow that line of questioning or reasoning with the people.
So, Allah is prompting Muhammad to ask people. There you are and that is the answer.
By the way, 7 and 70 do not mean an exact figure. It means simply "A lot" or "Far", etc. For example, If I say that I have travelled seven seas, It does not mean I really travelled across seven seas, counting each of them. It means I travelled a lot. This is just a bonus info.
I would like to have my opponent made it clear for us if ?Arsh? means Allah?s reach, dominion, governance, power... what makes Allah mention he is the Lord of seven heavens AND of an exalted throne? Does not Allah?s dominion consist these seven heavens? Let us put your meaning of Arsh in the following verse and see whether it makes sense or not.
Say: "In whose hand rests the mighty dominion over all things, and who is it that protects, the while there is no protection against Him? [Tell me this] if you happen to know [the answer]!" (23:89) [And] they will reply: "[All this power belongs) to God." Say: "How, then, can you be so deluded?"50 I would like to have my opponent made it clear for us if ?Arsh? means Allah?s reach, dominion, governance, power... what makes Allah mention he is the Lord of seven heavens AND of an exalted throne? Does not Allah?s dominion consist these seven heavens? Let us put your meaning of Arsh in the following verse and see whether it makes sense or not.
?Say who is the Lord of seven Heavens and the Lord of exalted dominion aka reach aka governance aka power??
If Arsh denotes to Allah?s dominion or power or governance, just saying he is the (Lord) of Arsh is enough and there is no need to mention seven heavens again.Why would Allah call himself the Lord of seven heavens again when Lord of Arsh(dominion,power etc) already includes it?
IT is clear from the context of the verse that throne is indeed physical.
The word
Arsh when mentioned alone would mean
the Throne, the Seat of His Power. It need not be a sofa or a seat or a stool or a chair or a stage or dice, as we do not believe that Allah is a huge man sitting on some furniture piece. Allah can call Himself anything he likes as He is the Master.
The word
Arsh does not mean dominion or power, reach, etc.
If
Arsh is written as
Arshahu, literally meaning His Throne, in a specific verse, it would mean exactly as Kurseeyehee, i.e., power, reach, dominion, government or control, etc., as I explained in my first response to your debate post.
For example: "Wa kana
arshahu alal Ma'a", literally meaning, "His Power was over the waters", which in fact means "He was controlling the waters during the formation of earth" or simply "watching the creation". So, you cannot tell me that Allah's huge Arsh was floating over the water, while Allah was sitting or lying down on it.
LEt us see more verses
39:75
And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides, singing Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgment) will be in (perfect) justice, and the cry (on all sides) will be, "Praise be to God, the Lord of the Worlds!"
Yes, the believers will see. That is what Qur'aan says. How does the Arsh look like, we do not know. No one knows.
ARe we supposed to assume that angels will be surrounding a non physical entity like power,dominance, control etc and believers are to see it?? Does it make sense?
I think by now it should make sense after I have explained to you that Allah is an Entity and a reality. Again, I have to take you to her Majesty the Queen Victoria. She was on the throne and exercised her powers, dominance, control, reach, command over her Empire.
Let me present one more verse proving that the throne is indeed a literal one.
[069:017]
And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.
Now again If Arsh here meant power, dominance etc etc how can it have any sides ? I hope you agree with me that a physical object has sides and not a non physical entity. Do you want me to believe that these non physical entities like power,dominance etc etc have sides??? Secondly How can the angels bear/uphold these non physical entities? The conclusion is that it has to be physical throne otherwise you and those who opposed me in the comments thread should please answer these questions for me.
By now, it should be clear to you that Arsh does not mean power or dominion, etc. Arsh simply is Allah's area from where Allah operates. This is as simple as I can put. I do not know how it looks like. No one does, haven't been there yet.
I cannot post in the comment threads. You will have to deal with the posters there yourself. By now, you should know the difference between a Sovereign and his powers.
Nobody will be seeing eight angels carrying God around.
Cheers
BMZ
Topic: Bmz vs Skynightblaze